Adelinde Cornelissen - happy horse?

Prince33Sp4rkle said:
perhaps accept that if you have never trained a horse to that level, you cannot possibly understand the complication, the difficulties, the sheet mind boggling balancing act it can be. Perhaps be a little more accepting of what you dont know?
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Is this not the same argument that was put forward for beating racehorses to the finish line?

You write as if it is not optional to compete to win at Grand Prix., that somehow anything is justified if it gets results. I don't subscribe to that view.
 
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fburton said:
No worries! :) Feelings tend to run high when debating a subject like this, and I'm not immune from becoming a little heated myself.
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I find it fascinating. I used to be very anti-RK and quite aggressively so. I've changed my views quite a bit in the last year or so and am a lot more open to discussing it, so I enjoy these threads. I don't believe there it is black and white. I've had lots of conversations with my horse's physio about it and it raises questions... she says that in the main, the horses she sees with KS are mid-level competition horses. Not many at low levels, and not happy hackers (though that in itself raises questions.. why not? Is it because the owners don't pick up small niggles and signs in their horses? Is it because the horses aren't physically pushed?). She's also treated some v high level DR horses and doesn't see issues with those horses, and they are the ones most likely to be worked most often in hyperflexion. So why not? Is it because the riders at those levels are very tactful in their use of HF? Is it that those horses in the mid-levels are ridden by people who maybe don't have enough understanding but are trying to copy something they see at top level, but not doing it properly?

I don't know the answer to these questions, but do think they are all things that bear considering. I also think the argument about sharp competition horses is a valid one.
 
cptrayes said:
Which also does not prove that if you had treated him a different way he would not have had just as good a result. I agree, one horse means nothing. Some proper research instead of insisting on box rest and restrictive lunging would be good to see for KS horses.
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The exact same thing can be said for your horse.
You did one thing CC did another both had a good result not sure it proves anything except what all horse people know many roads lead to Rome.
 
All the thirteen horses done by the surgeon who did mine were happy hackers or not much more.

I can't see anything in rollkur that would cause KS, personally. I can see that the modern trend for breeding shorter backed horses will do it though.

My vets tell me they see it at three stages. First when the horse is backed, then in horses of about eight that are working seriously and hit a problem, lastly at horses of around twelve, where work has caused arthritis. changes over time.
 
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Goldenstar said:
The exact same thing can be said for your horse.
You did one thing CC did another both had a good result not sure it proves anything except what all horse people know many roads lead to Rome.
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Which bit of ' I agree one horse means nothing ' did you miss GS??
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
Kc100- so you dont think Ed Gal ever puts Glocks Undercover very very deep to gain control of that hot headed powerhouse..........................thats no critisism of him but its interesting that Adelinde is a villain for riding deep and having a short tense horse but EG is not? Undercover is insanely tense at time, but somehow thats more acceptable? This is in NO WAY a critisism of either of them and there have been more pics of Adelinde that have made even me go "hmmmmmm" but i would bet there are just as many not so pretty pics of Undercover looking rather tense and strong and ditto Mistral Hojiris, a notoriously strong horse who in the early days needed a lot of obvious flexing and BIG half halts to keep him under control. I think the shortening of the neck makes Undercover and Parcival appear worse than a horse which pulls but keeps its neck out, neither is any more correct but the latter more easily covered up.
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I was mainly talking about Edward Gal with Totillas (I know it can be argued he might have used Rollkur with him but there are not many pics of it happening apart from in halt so lets for the sake of argument with a lack of evidence say he didnt) - Glocks Undercover still has a lot of work to do, he's a long way off the finished article and it would be unfair to talk about Edward with this horse as I've not seen him often enough with Undercover to comment. The reason why I'd be happy to pay to see Edward at a convention would be for his sheer amount of experience and for his experience with Totillas, he was widely argued as the best dressage horse in the world for a very long time so to me he would be an interesting person to hear speak.

Not saying Adelinde would not be interesting, I'm sure there would be something to learn from any top GP rider but personally someone who only switches their methods when they are not winning is not going to be top of my list for someone I want to pay to see speak. But hey, this is just my opinion and who am I at the end of the day - just a huge dressage fan who wants to learn more at ever opportunity but only ever in a way that is kind to the horse.

I actually think I'd rather pay to see you and your sister with your lovely boys to be honest :), you have achieved so much with 2 ex racers which is fascinating, compared to someone who has been bought a flashy WB and uses/used questionable methods like rollkur.
 
cptrayes said:
Is this not the same argument that was put forward for beating racehorses to the finish line?

You write as if it is not optional to compete to win at Grand Prix., that somehow anything is justified if it gets results. I don't subscribe to that view.
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i think you are deliberately misunderstanding me and also not engaging your brain-no one spends that amount of money or time to compete internationally and NOT try to do the very best they can. In wanting to do their best there will probably be moments that are not pretty to watch, and times the rider appears to go down the *wrong* path before changing their ideals/ideas/route. This is their life, their career and they set out to win, as does anyone else whose sport is thier career.........because this particular sport also involves another living creature it is far more open to critisism.
Those that are more opne minded and able to weight up the good and the bad and take in to account their own lesser knowledge will get more out of it and be able to discuss ina more balanced way.....a point blank "no/wrong" always leads me to wonder exactly how much the writer really understands about the sport.

as far as racing goes, i believe the way/amount a racehorse can be hit is quite strictly controlled, the equivilant of the blood rule in dressage and judges/stewards alike are very hot on enforcing it so not sure what your point is?

chestnut cob said:
I find it fascinating. I used to be very anti-RK and quite aggressively so. I've changed my views quite a bit in the last year or so and am a lot more open to discussing it, so I enjoy these threads. I don't believe there it is black and white. I've had lots of conversations with my horse's physio about it and it raises questions... she says that in the main, the horses she sees with KS are mid-level competition horses. Not many at low levels, and not happy hackers (though that in itself raises questions.. why not? Is it because the owners don't pick up small niggles and signs in their horses? Is it because the horses aren't physically pushed?). She's also treated some v high level DR horses and doesn't see issues with those horses, and they are the ones most likely to be worked most often in hyperflexion. So why not? Is it because the riders at those levels are very tactful in their use of HF? Is it that those horses in the mid-levels are ridden by people who maybe don't have enough understanding but are trying to copy something they see at top level, but not doing it properly?

I don't know the answer to these questions, but do think they are all things that bear considering. I also think the argument about sharp competition horses is a valid one.
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the quote about mid V high level horses is where my mind tends to fall on the KS debate-its not a HF problem per se, but a problem of HF in the wrong hads, or just in plain bad hands!
 
My point, Princess, is that excessive whipping of racehorses was banned because PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER RACED IN THEIR LIVES OR EVEN RIDDEN A HORSE said it was wrong.
 
kc100 said:
I was mainly talking about Edward Gal with Totillas (I know it can be argued he might have used Rollkur with him but there are not many pics of it happening apart from in halt so lets for the sake of argument with a lack of evidence say he didnt) - Glocks Undercover still has a lot of work to do, he's a long way off the finished article and it would be unfair to talk about Edward with this horse as I've not seen him often enough with Undercover to comment. The reason why I'd be happy to pay to see Edward at a convention would be for his sheer amount of experience and for his experience with Totillas, he was widely argued as the best dressage horse in the world for a very long time so to me he would be an interesting person to hear speak.

Not saying Adelinde would not be interesting, I'm sure there would be something to learn from any top GP rider but personally someone who only switches their methods when they are not winning is not going to be top of my list for someone I want to pay to see speak. But hey, this is just my opinion and who am I at the end of the day - just a huge dressage fan who wants to learn more at ever opportunity but only ever in a way that is kind to the horse.

I actually think I'd rather pay to see you and your sister with your lovely boys to be honest :), you have achieved so much with 2 ex racers which is fascinating, compared to someone who has been bought a flashy WB and uses/used questionable methods like rollkur.
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thats very kind, thank you :) im a dreadful public speaker though, dont think BD would be impressed lol!

its potentially a bit naive to say EG didnt or doesnt work his horses very deep when the horses put its self in the rollkur position under saddle of its own accord. I dont have too much of an issue with it as there was/is so much else positive about his training but i *think* (cant say for sure), if you watched Adelinde work 20 horses over a week and EG work 20 horses over a week you would have an equal number of pros and cons for each. Ive seen EG keep a horse in passage for a very long period of time and mentally winced as i think thats just as likely to cause injury or distress, but i remain open mined to the rest of his training ethos, i guess im asking people tro try and do the same for Adelinde.
 
Would someone please explain to me (a non dressage rider) what hyperflexion/rolkur is supposed to achieve? According to the video I posted earlier it has little to no effect on the vertical movement of the spine with most vertical flexion coming from the lumbar/sacral joint, important for collection. Genuine question.
 
After Carl and his gang won basically everything at the Olympics, I think dressage riders are becoming receptive to the fact that his way of training (not using Rolkur) is the way to go if you want to win. Recently I think (from my limited view of the dressage world) that a lot of the top horses look a lot more relaxed and are going more correctly.

So while that picture looks awful and I don't agree with what she did at ALL, if she is now trying to train her horses in a better way then good for her. At the top of their sport it must be so hard not to get sucked into using bad methods, the pressure must be seriously intense to do well. Thats not an excuse, but I think we can see that dressage training is changing for the better (I think so anyway from what I've seen), so if she has learnt from her mistakes and is now working her horses better then thats got to be a good thing.

You see horrible things go on in all aspects of horse sports, showjumpers/showing people/dressagers can all use horrible tequniches to achieve results but while it DOES achieve them good results they will carry on doing it! If they stop winning and people with better methods win (i.e Carl, Charlotte) then everyone will follow suit!
 
I don't think you need to be a relative expert or up at that level with AC to identify that the use of RK/HF isn't particularly savoury to be polite - I'm not an expert in child nutrition but I understand the fundamental dangers associated with starving them.

I also think it is particularly unpleasant of posters in here to imply that their opinions are more valid and more relevant because of their level of training, it comes across as really distasteful.
 
doriangrey said:
Would someone please explain to me (a non dressage rider) what hyperflexion/rolkur is supposed to achieve? According to the video I posted earlier it has little to no effect on the vertical movement of the spine with most vertical flexion coming from the lumbar/sacral joint, important for collection. Genuine question.
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The only answer I've seen that makes sense to me, having ridden a couple of them, is that it gives you an effective way of controlling boisterous and big moving warmbloods.

If used for a longer time, say on the lunge as I have seen a top level British trainer do to a horse of my friend's, it also makes the ligament along the top of the neck bigger, that elusive 'top line'.

She stopped doing it and the mare she bought from them lost her very strong neck top line and they told her to do more of it with tighter side reins.

To make it worse, this was their warm-up, before the horse was ridden, and the tight side reins went on at the very start.
 
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cptrayes said:
Which also does not prove that if you had treated him a different way he would not have had just as good a result. I agree, one horse means nothing. Some proper research instead of insisting on box rest and restrictive lunging would be good to see for KS horses.
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It isn't research on lungeing in "gadgets" but the BEVA DVD I have contains a section which discusses this. They say that they did XR and I think MRI on all horses in their study. Each one showed significant improvement in spacing between their DSPs (I'd need to go back and watch again to give you the exact wording) after 10 weeks on the stretching programme. That programme consists of some v deep, round bending of the horses. I know that isn't the same as working a horse in RK for long periods daily, and RK is in movement rather than standing still, but the principle of the muscles they are trying to work is the same.
 
cptrayes said:
If used for a longer time, say on the lunge as I have seen a top level British trainer do to a horse of my friend's, it also makes the ligament along the top of the neck bigger, that elusive 'top line'.

She stopped doing it and the mare she bought from them lost her very strong neck top line and they told her to do more of it with tighter side reins.

To make it worse, this was their warm-up, before the horse was ridden, and the tight side reins went on at the very start.
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I wonder if this trainer came from the same camp as the one who used to train the person I worked for. Although the one I saw used to use 2 sets of sides reins so the head was really "set".
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
thats very kind, thank you :) im a dreadful public speaker though, dont think BD would be impressed lol!

its potentially a bit naive to say EG didnt or doesnt work his horses very deep when the horses put its self in the rollkur position under saddle of its own accord. I dont have too much of an issue with it as there was/is so much else positive about his training but i *think* (cant say for sure), if you watched Adelinde work 20 horses over a week and EG work 20 horses over a week you would have an equal number of pros and cons for each. Ive seen EG keep a horse in passage for a very long period of time and mentally winced as i think thats just as likely to cause injury or distress, but i remain open mined to the rest of his training ethos, i guess im asking people tro try and do the same for Adelinde.
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I am sure EG works his horses deep in fact there's plenty of training footage out on the internet of him doing it .
I don't know but I am sure CH will work deep at times as well .
The rollkur debate is now so mixed up and I don't the vast majority of people think that all putting of the horse deep or very deep and round is wrong but Where that stops and unacceptable methods start is not so easy to judge .
IME the whip it is a 'tool ' that can be misused and so is LDR but it can also help the horse its a question of degree and intent .
By intent I mean that LDR could be used as punishment and that's not acceptable to me .
I am trying to open minded about AC I hate the way she sits agaisnt her horse I hate the over tight nosebands padded with things ( although the new rules now stop this in public ) I have never admired the way Parsizal goes there are horses that thrill me more Damon Hill for instance .
And the story of her journey with this horse is a special one .
But if I was doing more than I am now I would go and watch her with interest and concentration and I would learn things .
 
cptrayes said:
The only answer I've seen that makes sense to me, having ridden a couple of them, is that it gives you an effective way of controlling boisterous and big moving warmbloods.

If used for a longer time, say on the lunge as I have seen a top level British trainer do to a horse of my friend's, it also makes the ligament along the top of the neck bigger, that elusive 'top line'.

She stopped doing it and the mare she bought from them lost her very strong neck top line and they told her to do more of it with tighter side reins.
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Does it produce a more relaxed test I wonder due to the release of the pressure? I sometimes wonder how the temperament of a horse is compromised due to harsh training methods. I mean if a top dressage horse can be hacked out by an 80 year old why would a dressage test make him more difficult, anticipation? I think rather than being temperamental and hot they have incredibly generous temperaments - but that's just me musing :) I've been following Ace's progress btw, he really is the most gorgeous horse, I hope he continues to improve :o
 
Anybody, regardless as to who they are, if in the public limelight should realise the obligation they have in setting the right example to the people that aspire to them.
Rollkur is cruel, as is soring and the Big Lick, as is gingering up of certain show horses. I am not in anyway experienced in dressage, neither do I know much about walking horses but my experience with horses tells me that this is WRONG. If I were young and naive and inexperienced I may feel the need to emulate rollkur because that is what the 'professionals' do so it must be ok. How many times have we seen horses advertised for sale or in photo's where their heads are pulled into their chests because the owners think it looks pretty!
Hopefully Adelinde C will read this thread and openly admit the error of her ways.
 
You can't IMO compare soring with rollkur, the horse is in rollkur postion and then it's out of it , soring is completely different it's on another level altogether .
 
doriangrey said:
Does it produce a more relaxed test I wonder due to the release of the pressure? I sometimes wonder how the temperament of a horse is compromised due to harsh training methods. I mean if a top dressage horse can be hacked out by an 80 year old why would a dressage test make him more difficult, anticipation? I think rather than being temperamental and hot they have incredibly generous temperaments - but that's just me musing :) I've been following Ace's progress btw, he really is the most gorgeous horse, I hope he continues to improve :o
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I have just been pondering about the old/young riders who can hack some of these dressage horses but put the horse in the area/school and things change. The horse must be associating the area with something powerful to overcome basic plod mode when in an area familiar to them. Perhaps this is part of the reason these horses are difficult to ride in work? Just musing.

As has been pointed out it's a very complex picture that includes much more than purely riding style. Riding style could be a factor in negative or positive association though of course.
 
doriangrey said:
Does it produce a more relaxed test I wonder due to the release of the pressure? I sometimes wonder how the temperament of a horse is compromised due to harsh training methods. I mean if a top dressage horse can be hacked out by an 80 year old why would a dressage test make him more difficult, anticipation? I think rather than being temperamental and hot they have incredibly generous temperaments - but that's just me musing :) I've been following Ace's progress btw, he really is the most gorgeous horse, I hope he continues to improve :o
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Just done today's fantastic update :) He is a lovely boy, I am so lucky to ride a horse of his quality even if my riding will never do him justice :)

I think there may be some mileage in the 'release from pressure' theory.

Regarding behaviour at a competition, I've known many horses that would work to a far higher standard at home than they would in a competition environment. I know a lot of that was me transmitting my tension at being judged to them. Something at which I am truly International in class :D. But some of it comes from the pressure put on the horse to perform exactly to the markers, for example, when at home you'd be likely to wait a stride more for a better balance. For horses like mine that live a quiet isolated existence day to day, a competition environment is also very defocussing.

These top horses lead very structured lives at home, it must be just as much of a shock to them.
 
Personally, I don't like watching Parzival, although he is not the only top dressage/GP horse. I just think he looks unhappy, (But what would I know- Never having competed anywhere near GP? :)) all I see is a horse, that looks uncomfortable. Valegro looks happy, and a joy to ride, - good on CD and CH.

R.E the comment that a study showed that a rolkur-ish movement could improve the horse physically, I wonder at what cost? Mental discomfort? Pain? I think we should just be happy we have a decent horse- not try to improve the bone structure.

I have read the whole of this thread, and thought I would add my tuppence worth!
 
Dizzy socks said:
R.E the comment that a study showed that a rolkur-ish movement could improve the horse physically, I wonder at what cost? Mental discomfort? Pain? I think we should just be happy we have a decent horse- not try to improve the bone structure.
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Put another slant on it... if a horse works in hyperflexion for a short period of time and it really does stretch them out, encourage them to lift the back and round, then isn't it worth it in the long term (just a question, not me saying let's work everything in RK)? The point about having a decent horse - why wouldn't you want to improve on what you have? If you can improve on it then doesn't that make it easier for the horse to stay sound, and for him to perform the job? Isn't dressage all about improving a horse to make him more athletic, supple and gymnastic, so he is better able to work?

I've seen vids of CH working horses in demos pretty deep/ LDR, yet for some reason on here people seem to think he is a paragon of virtue whose horses work in a competition outline all of the time. There are interviews where he talks about his horses hacking regularly, but I can't imagine they all hack on the buckle end, bimbling along and taking in the view. I've seen a vid of him riding Valegro in a demo where he shows him being ridden LDR and doing lateral work, to stretch out his entire body. But for some reason, when CH talks about it, it is OK yet when other riders do, they are cruel and evil...
 
chestnut cob said:
Put another slant on it... if a horse works in hyperflexion for a short period of time and it really does stretch them out, encourage them to lift the back and round, then isn't it worth it in the long term (just a question, not me saying let's work everything in RK)? The point about having a decent horse - why wouldn't you want to improve on what you have? If you can improve on it then doesn't that make it easier for the horse to stay sound, and for him to perform the job? Isn't dressage all about improving a horse to make him more athletic, supple and gymnastic, so he is better able to work?

I've seen vids of CH working horses in demos pretty deep/ LDR, yet for some reason on here people seem to think he is a paragon of virtue whose horses work in a competition outline all of the time. There are interviews where he talks about his horses hacking regularly, but I can't imagine they all hack on the buckle end, bimbling along and taking in the view. I've seen a vid of him riding Valegro in a demo where he shows him being ridden LDR and doing lateral work, to stretch out his entire body. But for some reason, when CH talks about it, it is OK yet when other riders do, they are cruel and evil...
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Well, I haven't called anyone cruel and evil ;) but according to the biomechanics of the horse LDR doesn't encourage lifting of the spine. It's very rigid vertically (I think it has a flexibility of no more than 2.5 inches) and most of the movement is propelled from the sacro/hind quarters. I don't know how the back muscles would be affected, however.
 
chestnut cob said:
Put another slant on it... if a horse works in hyperflexion for a short period of time and it really does stretch them out, encourage them to lift the back and round, then isn't it worth it in the long term (just a question, not me saying let's work everything in RK)? The point about having a decent horse - why wouldn't you want to improve on what you have? If you can improve on it then doesn't that make it easier for the horse to stay sound, and for him to perform the job? Isn't dressage all about improving a horse to make him more athletic, supple and gymnastic, so he is better able to work?

I've seen vids of CH working horses in demos pretty deep/ LDR, yet for some reason on here people seem to think he is a paragon of virtue whose horses work in a competition outline all of the time. There are interviews where he talks about his horses hacking regularly, but I can't imagine they all hack on the buckle end, bimbling along and taking in the view. I've seen a vid of him riding Valegro in a demo where he shows him being ridden LDR and doing lateral work, to stretch out his entire body. But for some reason, when CH talks about it, it is OK yet when other riders do, they are cruel and evil...
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Well, I guess I just don't think it acceptable to try and improve your horse at the sacrifice of it's well being. I doubt the horse knows why it's head is being jammed into it's chest- it just wants t be released.
Tbh, I doubt the horse cares about how round it's back is, these are all characteristics introduced by people, to make the horse more amenable to the tasks we set them. Also the fact that people always strive for perfection, they will want there horse to go on improving. Give them an idea that works, and it will continue to be used until it has no more success - or forever, if results are improving.


Just reread that, and makes very little sense, but hey ho! :)

There is a definable difference between LDR and Rolkur. CH is not a saint, just far better then the norm.
 
chestnut cob said:
Put another slant on it... if a horse works in hyperflexion for a short period of time and it really does stretch them out, encourage them to lift the back and round, then isn't it worth it in the long term (just a question, not me saying let's work everything in RK)?
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Too many ifs and unknowns in RK for me to say it's worth it. There are (apparently lol) other ways to teach and bring on a horse to use and strengthen it's spine and body enough to first carry a human and eventually obtain the level of collection and impulsion required in dressage and at GP level.
There is also the element of control of the horse which is often cited in the use of RK. Control through force as opposed to calm, relaxed obedience through sensitive training is a disussion that runs through all equestrianism from me to the GP riders and trainers.

ps. Force = tension and resistance in my book.
 
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I've read the whole thread as well, and will throw in my pennies worth. Being a lot older than most of you (I'm sure), I have always been a fan of Reiner Klimke. So here is the link to him on his victory lap after winning gold....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbLXpW5-DG0 A different era, but how often now would you see a horse ridden and going as softly as this one? This (to me) is how dressage should be ridden. Complete understanding and harmony between horse and rider, without any tension, and just think what the atmosphere must have been like at that stadium!
 
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