Advice, good vibes & a shoulder to cry on...... not sure which I need.

Quarrybank

Quarrybank

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 September 2006
Messages
782
Location
Essex
Visit site
Spider went back in for his 3 month check up today. He had the tieback in October, but has struggled to adapt to the operation. He then had the pneumonia (caused by food going the wrong way & down into his windpipe) in November. He recovered from this & I started bringing him back to work in January. I'd been thinking things were improving, but I think it's more that I've got used to the coughing & it doesn't seem so bad to me now.
frown.gif
He coughs on and off all day.
frown.gif

I've been working him both hacking out & in the school & started cantering about a month ago. He coughs at the start of a session, but it gets less as we work, but doesn't stop completely.
He does still regurgitate food & when he drinks the water does still come down his nostrals
crazy.gif


When the scope went in, it initially looked good as the nasal passages & up to the larynx looked fairly clear, however as soon as we went through the larynx into the windpipe, there was loads of food & mucus. Far more than me (& the vet) had thought possible. Once we got down to where the broncual tubes start it was much clearer, so the coughing is doing it's job & preventing it going into his lungs, but for how long.
frown.gif

It's no wonder he's coughing loads poor thing
shocked.gif


So now .... where do I go from here? This is the discussion I had with my vet afterwards.........
Carrying on as we are is not really an option as with that amount of food going down, he will end up with severe complications at some point & it isn't very nice for him.
So I have 2 choices
1) I call it a day & we have him PTS. It makes me cry (& I have loads today including at the vets
blush.gif
) to even think about it, as he looks so well on the outside.
2) I have the operation reversed. This will cost me about £2000 as I'm almost out of my insurance allowance (this would not be an issue if it would mean he could live a useful life)
I bought him to be my eventer. Prob up to BE novice. He is fantasticly bold XC & gives me an amazing feeling into a fence. When I jump him (sadly I haven't for 6 months) I never doubt he will not take me to & pop the fence in front of him. He is never going to do that job now, he would struggle to even do dressage & SJ at the moment with the coughing & if it's reversed he wont get enough oxygen in to go XC, but might be able to do the dressage & SJ. However in reality he's no dressage horse (sorry Spider
blush.gif
) But there is no guarantees he would be any more than a hack & as he loves to work & really loves to jump would he be happy with that.

If I reversed the tieback & he couldn't do the job that I want, I would never sell him as I feel I have a responsibilty to make sure he doesn't end on a downward spiral & keep getting sold on if he can't do the job people want him to do.
The other option would be to reverse the tieback & loan him out as a hack. Again I've dismissed this as he wouldn't be suitable for a novice and he needs special shoes due to low heels & I don't think anyone would want to take on that expense for a hack.

So I think my choices are-
i) Call it a day & have him PTS
ii) Pay to have the operation reversed & except that he may end up as no more than a hack.

Loads of cookies if you've got this far.

I'm not sure if I'm expecting anyone to have any revolutionary answers & it's certainly helped to write it all down.
I'd just be interested to hear people thoughts on what they'd do if they were in my situation.
 
What a nightmare.
I would ask for a second opinion from a leading expert. Your vet sounds fab, but it never hurts to have a second opinion, you never know, they may have other ideas. Find out who the top man is in this field and just ask your vet to refer him for you...
 
Hate to say it, but I would lean towards PTS. If he's not really suitable as a hack, and it's going to cost you that amount of money to reverse the op, I can't see it's going to do anyone any favours least of all the horse.
It's a very hard decision though, everyone keeps asking me why I am not having my mare PTS rather than retired (tendon injury) but she has a very good quality of life being a nanny to babies, and if she ever comes sound enough she would make a perfect nervous novice's hack. It sounds to me as if your horse has a bleak future and not much quality of life as he is either.
I'm so sorry, it must be awful to have to make That Decision
frown.gif
 
Thanks for your reply.
The op was done by one of the leading men in the field & it would be him who would also reverse it.
My vet is going to call him tomorrow & send him the DVD of todays scope & get his thoughts on whether there are any other options open to us, but he sadly thinks thats unlikely. The tieback op has a very hi success rate but Spider is one of the few that have complications following it.
frown.gif
 
Before you do any of these things I would take him to another vets and ask for their opinion. You may find another vet gives you another option. I don't know who did the operation but there is no harm surely in asking another vet what they think
 
****HUGS****

All I would say is, provided you can justify further emptying your pockets, for him to end up as a hack then perhaps give reversal a go?
My mare, when I was faced with having her PTS, was a workaholic and I was convinced she wouldn't cope with being a glorified pet but she surprised me and took to it just fine. Also if he is in reduced workload it may be worth taking the time to remove his shoes and rehab his feet that way, which is something I am doing with my 6yo at the moment as her heels were disappearing into nothingness.

But I think it comes down to whether you are happy with that, and aren't going to begrudge him the fact that he won't fulfill your ambitions?
 
Oh Quarrybank, I don't know what to say to make you feel better. From your posts last week, it had sounded as if he was showing signs of improvement. Hugs to you.
You sound as if you have really thought hard about the options available, not that either of them will give you an outcome that will be of much benefit to you, in terms of Spider being able to do the work he was intended for.
I can only speak from personal experience with my horse who had KS. It is the hardest thing in the world to look at a horse that seems the picture of health on the outside and contemplate having him PTS.
What I had to do was rely on my gut feeling, as I knew that deep down, there was only one outcome that made sense; financially, for the horse, and for me.
I wouldn't dream of telling you to do one thing or the other with Spider; all you can do is clear your head and your heart, look at the facts and make the right decision for him. Only you can know what that will be.
 
Oh dear, not an enviable situation for you.
frown.gif
I'm sorry that it has come down to this.
I think you have to be very realistic about it, do you really want to put him though a reversal operation? If he is never going to be any better would it not be kinder to put him to sleep? As horrible and hard as it sounds, I think there comes a time where you have to say, the welfare of my horse MUST come before my personal feelings.
However, if your vet says that with the reversal it will prolong his life and he is happy to have a quiet life, then you could give it a go, my worry would be that the results would leave him without a job to do and then you may end up with an unhappy horse.

Whichever decision you chose, it's going to be tough.
frown.gif


Best of luck to you.xx

ETS, sorry, I probably didn't help one bit
crazy.gif
 
Thanks for all your thoughts.
I think I need to sleep on it, plus see what the specialist says incase there are any other options for us. Plus I agree before I make any decisions it would def be worth getting another opinion.
It's so hard, but I agree that the financials do need to be thought about too, but i think today it's my heart thats ruling at the moment.

crazy.gif
 
we have a 17 ,2 warmblood gelding here , he had a tie back at 3 yrs hes 17 now it also failed and he was left in exactly the situation you describe with spider , he coughs at any exersise including walking in field being led etc or even when hes excited standing still , he regurgitates food and it passes down his nostrils like a green soup, he was given to his current owners 4 years ago in a sorry physical state , but.....hes fine , he hacks , he enjoys life , he coughs a lot to start but by the time hes got to top of lane hes cleared it , he roars in canter but is not distressed in any way and for him hes perfectly happy , obviously hes only capable of hacking but he doesnt know or care that he was bred to event , and neither do his owners
 
what an awful situation. is it not possible to redo the op, try to stop whatever it is that is making the food go down the wrong way?
is there a guarantee that the reversal will put it as right as possible?
if not, i think i'd do the very very hard but right thing and have him pts.
 
Maggiehorse - Thank you for your reply. You are the first person I've found who knows a horse that's experienced something similar.
I'm assuming he didn't have it reversed?
Does he ever get infections?
What do they feed him?
Does he live in or out?

Thank you
smile.gif
 
What an awful situation...... I have no experiance of tie backs but what about a trachy with the tieback reversed......

Maybe a stupid suggestion, and sorry if it is, but surely it would mean that he would get enough air in, and the food would go the correct route??????
 
hi quarrybank
he lives out in summer in by night in winter , he very occasionally stays in by day in winter if the weather is appalling , he has to be fed at floor level and his feeds are made sloppy he has haylege by haynet and does couch lumps of half chewed hay out but not more than a few mouthfulls a night , hes very susceptable to resportary infection so they dont allow him to get wet , he wears a rain sheet on excersise etc and is well rugged in field , otherwise hes treated normally , i will ask them if theres anything else they can help you with i,m sure she would be happy to talk to you about him by phone if you would like or e mail
 
What an awful predicament to be in. Sending you hugs, because you sound devastated - understandably.

Rather than reversing the surgery, is there any possibility of re-doing the tieback, and to try to sort out what is actually going wrong??

You've probably been through every option you can think of........

Hugs ((((((((((((((((( hugs )))))))))))))
 
Thanks all.
Unfortunately the tie back can't be redone as it's because he has the tieback & therefore his left larynx is perminantly open, that food is going down the wrong way. Most horse's adapt to this by eating off the floor. Spider sadly is one of the very few that hasn't.
We could look at loosening it to see if that helps, i.e making it less open, but there is no guarentee it will help & then we'd be back to looking at a complete reversal & putting him through a 3rd op which I don't think is feasable.
frown.gif


I don't think I'm ready to give up on him yet as he always makes me smile when I ride him.
smile.gif
I don't think I could live with myself if I don't give him the chance.

I'm starting to think that if the surgeon thinks that by doing the reversal I will be back to where I was in October, i.e a horse that can eat normally, but will have an exercise intolerance, that I will go for that.
It will mean he can't event, but he can't do that now.
I should be able to hack him & there should be no reason that he can't do dressage & SJ if I get him fit enough.
It just means I'll have to give up on my eventing asperations & become a dressage & SJ Diva
shocked.gif


Hopefully I will hear back from the surgeon via my vet in the next few days as to the possible outcomes & if there is anything else we should consider.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm starting to think that if the surgeon thinks that by doing the reversal I will be back to where I was in October, i.e a horse that can eat normally, but will have an exercise intolerance, that I will go for that.
It will mean he can't event, but he can't do that now.
I should be able to hack him & there should be no reason that he can't do dressage & SJ if I get him fit enough.
It just means I'll have to give up on my eventing asperations & become a dressage & SJ Diva

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a plan!

Sorry you're not nearer. I'd offer you Thumper to event.

Chin up flower. xxx
 
Thanks maggiehorse - That's really useful to hear as that is exactly what Spider does.
There is always some half chewed food outside his door or where his hay was on the floor.
My worry is that because he is only 6, he still has a lot of life left to be coping with this & if I reverse it his life will be easier & more comfetable.
I think i've accepted that he's not going to improve any more than he has & that if I don't have the op he will continue to cough & will need careful management. Whereas if he has the op, he will be able to live normally, but I just wont be able to do as much work as i hoped with him.

I would def be grateful if you'd ask them if there is anything else I should know to help me with my decision.
 
You poor thing, it's such a difficult position to be in especially with such a young horse. Only you know what's right for your horse and you and I'm sure you'll make the right decision by Spider.
What I would say is I never thought my boy would be happy with life as a hack (did suspensory aged 5yrs then collateral ligament aged 8yrs) but surprisingly he loves it and has never been more chilled. It was a big decision to keep him, and finances did play a part as like Spider he has remedial shoeing etc, but I decided that I'd give it a go.
Sending good vibes your way x
 
I'm so sorry for you, what a horrible situation.

I think the main thing is, though, to do what's best for both of you in the long term scenario. If you were to keep him as a hack, could you afford to buy another horse to do XC on?

Also, would your insurance cover loss of use on him, and would you forfeit death cover because you'd chosen to have him PTS?

I think you will know in your heart of hearts what you want to do.

Condolances.
 
difficult this one. I think at the end of the day you know your horse the best. Would he be happy as a hack? If the answer is yes and the reversal operation worked then go for it. If not I think you know the answer
frown.gif

Hard as it is the least we owe our horses for all the pleasure they give us, their trust and love, is to make the decision when enough is enough. Far better to PTS and know that he didn't suffer.
Huge hugs to you xxxxx
 
Having worked with people with swallowing difficulties, i think i would be tempted to leave im as he is and modify his diet as much as possible, to reduce the chances of aspiration.

Poor you
frown.gif
 
I don't think my reply will make me very popular, but here goes.

It is a huge decision for you to have to make and must be a terrible weight on you right now. Only you can decide what is right for him.
My thoughts are that you bought him for a reason as Quinn wasn't going to event and unfortunately it hasn't worked out. Now he is still very young and has a very long life ahead of him, so unless you are prepared to keep him for his entire life and ensure he isn't pushed, then imo he should be pts. I think I am right in saying that keeping him would put an end to your dreams of eventing.
From what I have read on here he seems to be a 'sickly' horse with one thing wrong with him after the next, I'm sorry it's sad but it is true.

I personally think the bravest decision would be to let him go. I was very ill a few years back and coughed solidly for 9 months and I know how awful that made me feel, so there's no way I'd put my horse through feeling the same.
Sorry
frown.gif
 
I know I spoke to you tonight, and I can't really advise as I have no experience, but I just wanted to say I'm thinking of you and I'm sure you will make the right decsion for you and Spider {{hugs}}
 
Ifield - thanks for your reply. i posted as I wanted people's views even if they weren't what i wanted to hear
confused.gif

Yes he's had lots of problems, but apart from his feet (which are almost sorted thanks to my great farrier
grin.gif
) it has all been as a consequence of him getting strangles. He had that badly & the absesses damaged the nerve to his larynx which has left us where we are now. All his other issues have been related to this
frown.gif


I spoke to the vet late yesterday & he has spoken to the surgeon. The surgeon agrees that if he was going to adapt to the tieback he would have done so by now.
There are no alternatives, so he agrees that we either call it a day or reverse the op.
The reversal has an 80% success rate that he would go back to how he was before & I would be able to do most thing except properly event. He would be able to eat normally & the coughing would therefore stop. Plus we will know in days or at most 2 weeks whether it has worked. The only down side would be the exercise intolerance if he was to work hard.
I have decided that with this prognosis, although I should maybe call it a day, I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't given him every chance.
We made a decision that he will have the op & that I will reassess what i do with him once he's recovered & back in work. If it doesn't work he will be PTS, but at least I will know I've done the best for him.

The surgeon is in Newmarket next week, so will hopefully try & fit him in to do Spider on his way back to bristol.
This way in a few weeks I'll know where I am & can go from there.

Thanks to all for their comments. i think there are no right or wrong answers, but this feels the right thing for me to do.
smile.gif
 
I wish you the very best of luck for the op.

If it helps... My horse is a roarer (as normal it's the left chord), when he was young and unfit I think it did have an effect on him. However once he had grown into himself and I got some condition on him and got him fit he was absolutely fine. He used to do the interval training with the eventers and coped absolutely fine, in fact he throughly enjoyed it!
Now he's a bit older and not as fit it does have a bit of an effect but nothing major.

If the reversal is successful who knows, it seems you have had absolutely rotten luck with Spider so far so hopefully that may turn round.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top