Advice on very hot headed horse!

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Ellietotz

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I'm currently riding a lovely Andalusian for someone during the week as she just has so much energy. I've only been schooling her and at times it can take about 20 minutes of cantering around until she starts to calm down even a tiny bit by which point she is already soaked in sweat. The cantering isn't asked for I hasten to add! It's the moment you get on and pick up the reins, it's not nice cantering, it's pulling and prancing about wanting to gallop off. Eventually though she works really nicely but it takes an awful long time and sometimes you can't properly get her in an outline and working nicely with her head down. Even if you try adjusting the reins, she instantly picks up the pace, loosen them or shorten, it really doesn't make any difference, it's just when you shift in your seat or move your hands a bit that she starts getting faster. Sometimes though you can have a really nice soft contact and she goes really well but it's rare.

Out hacking is worse, she just gets beside herself, dripping in sweat within 15 minutes, jogging, leaping about and if you decided to give her her head she would just gallop off. She isn't fed any hard feed unless worked and it's only a small handful of chaff and is on 24/7 turnout. Regardless of if she is worked everyday, she is still like this and all she is predominantly used for is hacking.

What can the owner do? A little bit of silliness isn't an issue but when asked to walk and cool down, it would be good if she listened as I can't imagine it's healthy for her being so wound up!

Thank you!
 
Sounds like a rather misunderstood andalusian with some very ingrained behaviour.

In all honesty it sounds like they could do with getting someone in to re back her. But she will probably never be a quiet horse that's accepting of a wide range of riding. She sounds like she will always need someone with a decent/consistent level of precision to ride her. So maybe your friend could sell her as a project to someone who will be able to do that for her....?
 
I would say stop doing what you are doing, as allowing 20 minutes if cantering that is not asked for and is not relaxed will be worsening the situation.

You do not say what she is like n the ground? Because, I would start helping this horse with finding where her discomfort begins. Could be purely mental discomfort, could be part mental / part physical.

I have re-schooled one like this, we started on the floor, to teach the correct response to the bit. The horse learned to be relaxed to lead, to long rein etc. I don't just mean light to the aids, I mean relaxed too.

I then moved what we had learned to the saddle, via lessons on how to be relaxed when mounted.

I would second DabDab that it sounds like the best way forward would be to get someone with experience, compassion and feel to help you.
 
Red-1 said:
I would say stop doing what you are doing, as allowing 20 minutes if cantering that is not asked for and is not relaxed will be worsening the situation.

You do not say what she is like n the ground? Because, I would start helping this horse with finding where her discomfort begins. Could be purely mental discomfort, could be part mental / part physical.

I have re-schooled one like this, we started on the floor, to teach the correct response to the bit. The horse learned to be relaxed to lead, to long rein etc. I don't just mean light to the aids, I mean relaxed too.

I then moved what we had learned to the saddle, via lessons on how to be relaxed when mounted.

I would second DabDab that it sounds like the best way forward would be to get someone with experience, compassion and feel to help you.
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I agree with what you are saying and think she needs to start from the beginning.

She's good on the ground and good to lunge. The moment you get off and lead her, she stops all the messing around. She did have a poorly fitting saddle at the start, she came from a dealer and has scars on her back. She's had lots of physio since and a full work up with the vet. Sometimes she works really nicely and stays relaxed but it's rare. She gets obsessed with having a gallop on a hack and is ridiculously quick. She often relaxes after that. I don't hack her though, only schooling. She wasn't good at being mounted or tacked up originally but that is sorted now, has taken a long time.
 
I had a warmblood once who was like this when I took over the ride. For 3 months I trotted him in 20m circles in the indoor school on a loose rein so he had nothing to brace against. Not sure I'd be brave enough to do it these days (old age & all that), but the minute you picked up the contact he'd want to be off in canter and then you'd have lost him.

With him I think it was a combination of pain (saddle, beginning of arthritis) and education (ex SJ who had really just spent his life cantering around jumps).

The other thing to consider is what she's eating. A lot of Andalusians don't do well on rich UK grass, so it might be sending her a bit silly.
 
SEL said:
I had a warmblood once who was like this when I took over the ride. For 3 months I trotted him in 20m circles in the indoor school on a loose rein so he had nothing to brace against. Not sure I'd be brave enough to do it these days (old age & all that), but the minute you picked up the contact he'd want to be off in canter and then you'd have lost him.

With him I think it was a combination of pain (saddle, beginning of arthritis) and education (ex SJ who had really just spent his life cantering around jumps).

The other thing to consider is what she's eating. A lot of Andalusians don't do well on rich UK grass, so it might be sending her a bit silly.
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She has been like it for a couple of years and has always lived out, even if just eating hay in winter months, it's still the same. She is Andalusian x Thoroughbred I believe. She has a high head carriage also. Owner understandably a bit hesitate to try calmers as she believes she should listen regardless of if she has loads of energy which I agree with to an extent.
 
Ellietotz said:
She has been like it for a couple of years and has always lived out, even if just eating hay in winter months, it's still the same. She is Andalusian x Thoroughbred I believe. She has a high head carriage also. Owner understandably a bit hesitate to try calmers as she believes she should listen regardless of if she has loads of energy which I agree with to an extent.
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Whether she listens or not will depend on whether she can hear, either there is a physical reason, which can be discomfort or something amiss including lacking essential vits/ mins which is why some calmers work or that the rider is not doing the correct work which means going back to basics so she can listen.
 
I agree that the current approach of 20 minutes cantering at the start of the session is all wrong & only likely to make matters worse. The hacking situation sounds downright dangerous & I wouldn't be hacking out until things are more settled & controlled.

I know you say all the checks have been done, but I'd do them again. If she was mine I'd then consider turning her away for at least a month to lose some fitness, but bring her in daily to keep up her handling. When it's time to start riding again I'd make sure she had a decent amount of hay before she was ridden because it provides protection from acid splashes & also a horse with a full belly is often a slightly quieter horse. You say she's good to handle on the ground, so when I was ready to start riding again I'd have a handler on the ground, get on & ideally just use her as a chair for a few moments or walk quietly around the yard then get off & give her a lot of praise. Keep up that until she's totally relaxed about it, and I do mean relaxed not just tolerating. Build up the walk & gradually do away with the handler, but I'd be looking at walk only for a very long time because you need discipline not exhaustion if this horse is ever to be safe. Walk only in the school, with lots of rein changes, loops, turns etc to keep her mentally occupied. Forget about outlines, any outline you get from a tense horse is unlikely to be worth having anyway, teach her to relax & soften instead. Reward any correct behaviour by finishing, she needs to be absolutely sure of what you want & this is the best reward out. The early work may seem to take forever, but if it isn't right nothing will really change.

If the owner isn't prepared for both of you to follow this sort of plan then she needs professional help (she may need it anyway) & if I were you I'd stop riding the horse before there's an accident.
 
Nari said:
I agree that the current approach of 20 minutes cantering at the start of the session is all wrong & only likely to make matters worse. The hacking situation sounds downright dangerous & I wouldn't be hacking out until things are more settled & controlled.

I know you say all the checks have been done, but I'd do them again. If she was mine I'd then consider turning her away for at least a month to lose some fitness, but bring her in daily to keep up her handling. When it's time to start riding again I'd make sure she had a decent amount of hay before she was ridden because it provides protection from acid splashes & also a horse with a full belly is often a slightly quieter horse. You say she's good to handle on the ground, so when I was ready to start riding again I'd have a handler on the ground, get on & ideally just use her as a chair for a few moments or walk quietly around the yard then get off & give her a lot of praise. Keep up that until she's totally relaxed about it, and I do mean relaxed not just tolerating. Build up the walk & gradually do away with the handler, but I'd be looking at walk only for a very long time because you need discipline not exhaustion if this horse is ever to be safe. Walk only in the school, with lots of rein changes, loops, turns etc to keep her mentally occupied. Forget about outlines, any outline you get from a tense horse is unlikely to be worth having anyway, teach her to relax & soften instead. Reward any correct behaviour by finishing, she needs to be absolutely sure of what you want & this is the best reward out. The early work may seem to take forever, but if it isn't right nothing will really change.

If the owner isn't prepared for both of you to follow this sort of plan then she needs professional help (she may need it anyway) & if I were you I'd stop riding the horse before there's an accident.
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I got called away before I could complete my reply and this sums up what I would do when I suggested going back to basics, the owner is probably in need of professional help not a well meaning but inexperienced fellow livery, it sounds well ingrained for whatever reason and this type often get worse the more they are ridden, it is way beyond the capabilities of the average rider to sort out without help and endless time and has more than likely been caused in part by being galloped about with no thought as to the harm it is doing physically or mentally.
 
Simple answer. All checks done. Horse comfortable in all tack.? Fast horse doesnt mean strong bit..Keep everything slow. Fast and spooky is easy. This type if horse will run on adrenalin. Going fast for 20 min is not going to help. Calm and slow, thats the way to go.
 
She doesn't need hard feed when she has worked, she needs consistency. I would probably as the vet to scope her to check for ulcers, especially as she has had back pain.
I wouldn't give her any additional feed at all, she could be reacting to an ingredient in the feed.
 
I would strongly suggest finding a trainer who is experienced with Spanish horses. You don't say if this horse was imported from Spain or has been trained in the UK only, but whichever it is someone who understands the Iberian temperament is essential. I know innumerable Spanish horses which have been ruined by inexperienced handling and riding, please get some help.

P.S. It is nigh on impossible to "tire out" a hot Spaniard, it just winds them up.
 
Nari said:
I agree that the current approach of 20 minutes cantering at the start of the session is all wrong & only likely to make matters worse. The hacking situation sounds downright dangerous & I wouldn't be hacking out until things are more settled & controlled.

I know you say all the checks have been done, but I'd do them again. If she was mine I'd then consider turning her away for at least a month to lose some fitness, but bring her in daily to keep up her handling. When it's time to start riding again I'd make sure she had a decent amount of hay before she was ridden because it provides protection from acid splashes & also a horse with a full belly is often a slightly quieter horse. You say she's good to handle on the ground, so when I was ready to start riding again I'd have a handler on the ground, get on & ideally just use her as a chair for a few moments or walk quietly around the yard then get off & give her a lot of praise. Keep up that until she's totally relaxed about it, and I do mean relaxed not just tolerating. Build up the walk & gradually do away with the handler, but I'd be looking at walk only for a very long time because you need discipline not exhaustion if this horse is ever to be safe. Walk only in the school, with lots of rein changes, loops, turns etc to keep her mentally occupied. Forget about outlines, any outline you get from a tense horse is unlikely to be worth having anyway, teach her to relax & soften instead. Reward any correct behaviour by finishing, she needs to be absolutely sure of what you want & this is the best reward out. The early work may seem to take forever, but if it isn't right nothing will really change.

If the owner isn't prepared for both of you to follow this sort of plan then she needs professional help (she may need it anyway) & if I were you I'd stop riding the horse before there's an accident.
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I agree with this. I do give her some chop before I ride her as my pony had ulcers last year so I'm used to it and think it's good for them anyway. This doesn't make any difference with her behaviour though. When I have her walking, we walk lots and lots, circles etc. I wouldn't say she was really that fit either as she only gets hacked a couple of times a week before I started schooling a bit. I am assuming that it is not a matter of having too much energy causing this? She isn't unsafe, you have breaks and the strange thing is if you ask her to stand, it's the only time she will stop being a lunatic and actually slow down. She gets wound up on a hack like she is anticipating the gallop and then once it's done, she relaxes a bit more. The owner spent a lot of time just getting on and getting off to which you can now do it without her getting upset. Some days you can get on and walk off nice and relaxed with no problems at all, other days she just won't stop jogging from the get go, you ask her to trot and she will try cantering instead etc. I have found that it's only when you ask for contact she starts speeding up, on a loose rein, she is generally okay but obviously not once she is wound up when hacking. A loose rein in the school helps quite a lot when you can get to it. I have also only been properly schooling her in the last couple of weeks. I've only ridden her once or twice before this but know what she's like as I ride with the owner a lot.
 
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Pearlsasinger said:
She doesn't need hard feed when she has worked, she needs consistency. I would probably as the vet to scope her to check for ulcers, especially as she has had back pain.
I wouldn't give her any additional feed at all, she could be reacting to an ingredient in the feed.
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She has been scoped and had no ulcers as that's what I thought was causing the issue originally. She has had a full work up, been at the vets for a couple of days to have lots of checks done, blood tests, ovaries. Literally everything so I don't think it is medical other than what is in her head.
 
Cortez said:
I would strongly suggest finding a trainer who is experienced with Spanish horses. You don't say if this horse was imported from Spain or has been trained in the UK only, but whichever it is someone who understands the Iberian temperament is essential. I know innumerable Spanish horses which have been ruined by inexperienced handling and riding, please get some help.

P.S. It is nigh on impossible to "tire out" a hot Spaniard, it just winds them up.
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I have no idea where she came from sadly. I only know she was bought from a dealer in the UK. That is interesting to know, the only difficulty is, she is not mine otherwise I would have sent her off in a heartbeat to get sorted out professionally. I doubt that even if I managed to get her going properly in the school that it would make any difference out hacking with the owner as it wouldn't be consistent or with the same rider. What do you do with a hot Spaniard?
 
No she doesn't sound like she has too much energy, she sounds stressed. All horses, but particularly breeds like PRE, get quite stressed if they don't believe that they can find the right answer when a human asks something of them. And if they consistently aren't able to 'get it right', they will either shut down and become nappy and seemingly deaf to all commands a rider gives, or run around like something possessed as they learn that this generally causes the rider to stop asking anything of them for fear of an explosion. This is why so many people up thread have said that she needs taking right back to basics and building up gradually in an unrelenting positive, structured and consistent way.
 
Ellietotz said:
I agree with this. I do give her some chop before I ride her as my pony had ulcers last year so I'm used to it and think it's good for them anyway. This doesn't make any difference with her behaviour though. When I have her walking, we walk lots and lots, circles etc. I wouldn't say she was really that fit either as she only gets hacked a couple of times a week before I started schooling a bit. I am assuming that it is not a matter of having too much energy causing this? She isn't unsafe, you have breaks and the strange thing is if you ask her to stand, it's the only time she will stop being a lunatic and actually slow down. She gets wound up on a hack like she is anticipating the gallop and then once it's done, she relaxes a bit more. The owner spent a lot of time just getting on and getting off to which you can now do it without her getting upset. Some days you can get on and walk off nice and relaxed with no problems at all, other days she just won't stop jogging from the get go, you ask her to trot and she will try cantering instead etc. I have found that it's only when you ask for contact she starts speeding up, on a loose rein, she is generally okay but obviously not once she is wound up when hacking. A loose rein in the school helps quite a lot when you can get to it. I have also only been properly schooling her in the last couple of weeks. I've only ridden her once or twice before this but know what she's like as I ride with the owner a lot.
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A handful of chop in a bowl isn't the same as an hour or so munching on a haynet & feeling full up. It isn't just the ulcer risk, it's also the mental relaxation that comes from rhythmical chewing and a fairly full gut.

If she's choosing to do 20 minutes cantering, particularly not steady rhythmical cantering, then she's fairly fit. That's a lot of canter.

You can't put a post up like your first one then tell me she isn't unsafe & you have brakes. If she has brakes then why all this canter & performance? The fact is she has brakes when she chooses to use them & that is NOT safe because you're no more than a passenger. Either that or you're a fool & well on the way to ruining a horse - which is it?

Energy is not a problem if you have discipline, at the moment that's what you lack. If you really cannot see that then walk away from this horse & advise the owner to get proper help from someone who actually knows what they're doing. The hotter & more energetic the horse the more crucial it is that both horse & rider are disciplined, so if you go in the school & say walk at the start of a session that's what happens. Some days is not enough - that's the horse dictating & the rider lacking the skill &/or discipline to deal with it.

If I'm honest it sounds to me as though everyone riding this horse is out of their depth, doesn't realise the severity of the problem & almost certainly has very little interest in putting in the level & type of work needed to help it. It's an accident waiting to happen, but that isn't what you want to hear so I expect all the advice will be ignored.
 
Cortez said:
I would strongly suggest finding a trainer who is experienced with Spanish horses. You don't say if this horse was imported from Spain or has been trained in the UK only, but whichever it is someone who understands the Iberian temperament is essential. I know innumerable Spanish horses which have been ruined by inexperienced handling and riding, please get some help.

P.S. It is nigh on impossible to "tire out" a hot Spaniard, it just winds them up.
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Since the OP changes her mind partway down the first page & says the horse is Iberian x TB I'm guessing it's probably not imported from Spain, though I could be wrong.
 
Absolutely agree with Cortez that you cannot tire out a hot headed Spaniard. I’ve tried it with mine and it just revs him hotter and hotter. He can trot tirelessly for hours when he is on one. I often have to do less with him, circles aren’t enough to keep his attention, transitions can rev him up. So I work on slow, chilling, Trec obstacles really help me out, poles to wriggle through, do sidepass along, funky things to step over, lateral work. I drop the reins and ask him questions with the neck rope (if I’m feeling brave enough!) And key for me is making sure I breathe. I recognised a tendency to hold my breath when he is buzzed up which transfers to my body. The best way for me to do this is to chat to someone whilst I ride, generally a conversation that has zero to do with the horse.

He was at his worst when he had a sacroiliac injury, before it was diagnosed, he was just electric. He has relaxed a lot since having that and his hayfever and ulcers treated but still kicks off at times. He also has RER which is a muscle condition which makes it hard for him to relax once stressed, his muscles release calcium (responsible for muscle contraction) too readily when stressed.

Having just got a border collie I can see the similarities between the two. I think my Spaniard is the border collie of the horse world. Highly intelligent, keen to please, highly sensitive, easily frustrated and easy to mess up. You have to anticipate the consequences of every action that you do with them. As someone else said, he will throw answers at me trying to figure out what I want and if I don’t make it clear that he has got it he will either start to stress or he will shut down and go non responsive. Whereas if I make it clear right away what is a good try, he will try his heart out to get it, and gets it fast.
 
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I believe milliepops on here did a very good job at reschooling/ sorting one out so she might be worth asking.
Also as Cortez says a good trainer... often a classical one dare I say are good for these types of horses. I know of someone in Cumbria who would be excellent sorting that type of horse.
 
Nari said:
A handful of chop in a bowl isn't the same as an hour or so munching on a haynet & feeling full up. It isn't just the ulcer risk, it's also the mental relaxation that comes from rhythmical chewing and a fairly full gut.

If she's choosing to do 20 minutes cantering, particularly not steady rhythmical cantering, then she's fairly fit. That's a lot of canter.

You can't put a post up like your first one then tell me she isn't unsafe & you have brakes. If she has brakes then why all this canter & performance? The fact is she has brakes when she chooses to use them & that is NOT safe because you're no more than a passenger. Either that or you're a fool & well on the way to ruining a horse - which is it?

Energy is not a problem if you have discipline, at the moment that's what you lack. If you really cannot see that then walk away from this horse & advise the owner to get proper help from someone who actually knows what they're doing. The hotter & more energetic the horse the more crucial it is that both horse & rider are disciplined, so if you go in the school & say walk at the start of a session that's what happens. Some days is not enough - that's the horse dictating & the rider lacking the skill &/or discipline to deal with it.

If I'm honest it sounds to me as though everyone riding this horse is out of their depth, doesn't realise the severity of the problem & almost certainly has very little interest in putting in the level & type of work needed to help it. It's an accident waiting to happen, but that isn't what you want to hear so I expect all the advice will be ignored.
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No advice is ignored, that would defeat the purpose of posting the thread.
Sadly, I don't own the horse so I can only do what I can to a certain extent and try to advise the owner the best I can without being too involved. I haven't been asked to school her in aim to solve the problem. My main concern is the horse's well-being hence the thread and wanting to understand the behaviour and how it can be dealt with. Please don't assume that advice will be ignored, I don't have answers I want or don't want to hear. Although posts with nastiness will be ignored generally other than this one as a one off.

Apologies I led with the horse being Andalusian, I did mention further down that I believe she is crossed with TB but when it's from a dealer, you could never know. It would be difficult to mention every single detail in a post without it being ridiculously long.

She has breaks as in you can hold her back if you really try but mainly just asking her to stand by voice will slow her down to a stand in the school. I tend to use my voice to steady her as I don't like to be heavy handed or pull. Sometimes it takes a long time for her to listen and settle though and I know I am unlikely to be able to sort it out. Out hacking, I wouldn't know as again, I'm not the owner and I haven't hacked her. All the details may seem contradicting but I'm being truthful. It is all quite complicated. If she were mine, I would send her off but I don't have that choice.
 
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Nari said:
Since the OP changes her mind partway down the first page & says the horse is Iberian x TB I'm guessing it's probably not imported from Spain, though I could be wrong.
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I didn't change my mind, I shouldn't have led with Andalusian although I hadn't mentioned if she was pure bred, I hadn't put in every detail to start with, in hindsight I should have. She came from a dealer and my understanding is she is crossed with TB but couldn't know for sure.
 
OP, I think all Nari is saying is that, as well meaning as you are, you probably shouldn't take on schooling this horse. It's nothing against your riding ability, it's just the training aspect, this horse needs such systematic work that it really is a job for a pro if the owner is unable to.

With a horse of you own to do and a life of your own to live, you really don't need to be taking on a horse with issues that you haven't had experience of before. If you could get the owner to see sense and get in a pro (maybe you could help her choose someone suitable if she finds the whole thing daunting).
 
When you say she is predominately used for hacking, how far does she go? How often? And does she do varied routes? Could she be very bored?

I agree with the the collie comparison, they are working horses and usually thrive if they have a proper job. The happiest PREs I've known have all been kept very busy mentally as well as physically.

If I'd ruled out any physical issues, I'd start adding varied and challenging work and try to do two activities per day, probably one on the ground and one ridden.
 
i have ridden a few Spanish horses all very well behaved and schooled to do advanced medium they were very responsive and I can imagine would hot up quite easily and they are very intelligent so just cantering round aimlessly would be the worst thing to do, you need to do things to get there brain working lots of lateral work would be a start.

I have arabs and they are very much the same they have a good brain and if you don't put it to use you end up with a silly spooky horse they need to learn and they love it and they respond so much better to you, I also have 1 that often wont do a thing for anyone else in the school if he decides he will just shut down with some riders, and the other one will test a new rider to see what he can get away with.
 
As a direct result of the large number of inexperienced, overwhelmed, incompetent and frankly deluded people who purchase themselves "dreamhorse" Spanish horses I seem to have inadvertently become a rescue centre for the distressed, mentally broken and often quite dangerous results. Not all of them are fixable, and those that are often take years of patient rehabilitation and are seldom suitable for the average rider.

If the horse is indeed an Anglo-Iberian or Trés Sangres (PRE-Arab-TB) cross, they are the hottest of the hot and really only suitable for the very skilled rider. I imagine that a life of hacking and bobbling about with an amateur rider would be pure hell for this type of horse. Poor thing. You may discern that I have very little sympathy for the rider: people should do their research before taking on horses that are out of the ordinary, admit when they are in trouble and get skilled help before they are hurt and the horse is ruined.
 
DabDab said:
OP, I think all Nari is saying is that, as well meaning as you are, you probably shouldn't take on schooling this horse. It's nothing against your riding ability, it's just the training aspect, this horse needs such systematic work that it really is a job for a pro if the owner is unable to.

With a horse of you own to do and a life of your own to live, you really don't need to be taking on a horse with issues that you haven't had experience of before. If you could get the owner to see sense and get in a pro (maybe you could help her choose someone suitable if she finds the whole thing daunting).
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This ^^ in spades.

It sounds like the owner doesn't have the skills necessary to help this horse so *even if* you got the horse to the point where it could hear what you were asking and learn to respond in the desired way, every time the owner rides it, it'll probably go back to old habits. You need to all be on the same page when retraining a horse like this. Any kind of retraining, really, but especially one like this.
 
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