advice please - will a micklem help with rearing?

[southerncomfort]

My normally sane mare recently had a complete personality change after being on an alfalfa-based hay replacer. She is normally quite quiet to ride but but it's been like sitting on an unexploded bomb. I think if she'd have had limited turnout (she is out 24/7) at the same time she could have become quite dangerous. I've now changed her on to an oat straw based chaff and I'm waiting for the alfalfa to leave her system before sitting on her again!

I'm afraid I have to agree with the posters above. Rearing and broncing are not normal behaviours. Riding a horse that rears is very dangerous. You have been lucky up until now but it wouldn't take much for her to over backwards and seriously injure her rider. As a mother, I absolutely would not be allowing your daughters ride her until you have found and solved the issue.

For me, the first port of call would be the vets. She needs a full examination by the vet as such explosive behaviour is almost always down to pain somewhere.

If the behaviour cannot be explained by a physical issue then frankly you need to think about whether you have been miss sold the horse. I don't think their can be much argument that she is totally unsuitable as a first horse, it's just about whether you can prove that the previous owner was aware of the behaviour (and I'd be my house that she was!).

Really feel for you and your girls and hope their is a good outcome for you.

 

[beerecco]

My normally sane mare recently had a complete personality change after being on an alfalfa-based hay replacer. She is normally quite quiet to ride but but it's been like sitting on an unexploded bomb. I think if she'd have had limited turnout (she is out 24/7) at the same time she could have become quite dangerous. I've now changed her on to an oat straw based chaff and I'm waiting for the alfalfa to leave her system before sitting on her again!

Thanks for the advice. I think she's been on this feed regime for quite a while and normally when ridden in the indoor arenas that she likes, she is fine, so not sure it's the issue but worth considering.

I'm afraid I have to agree with the posters above. Rearing and broncing are not normal behaviours. Riding a horse that rears is very dangerous. You have been lucky up until now but it wouldn't take much for her to over backwards and seriously injure her rider. As a mother, I absolutely would not be allowing your daughters ride her until you have found and solved the issue.

I think you have all persuaded me of this now! Oldest daughter volunteers at our local RDA and she's been having a chat with the instructors there who also said that she's not the right horse for us.

I do feel in my heart that the behaviour is to do with needing a rider who will not be put off by her bad behaviour not an injury or pain, simply because she's not agitated and works fine both before and after - if the rearing doesn't do the trick she carries on as good as gold. Especially thinking back to when my youngest was riding her in the arena she hates and couldn't get her out of the corner where she was rearing and bucking, and then she went straight on to work beautifully in the indoor straight away.

I did notice when we bought her that the old owner and the lady who sold her to us who has a livery yard both kept stressing that we should get lots of lessons on her over the Christmas holidays - which with hindsight probably indicates that they knew she could be difficult.

If the behaviour cannot be explained by a physical issue then frankly you need to think about whether you have been miss sold the horse. I don't think their can be much argument that she is totally unsuitable as a first horse, it's just about whether you can prove that the previous owner was aware of the behaviour (and I'd be my house that she was!).

Really feel for you and your girls and hope their is a good outcome for you.

Thanks, and thank you for getting in touch, I really appreciate your advice.

 

[beerecco]

I don't think you have made her sound worse than she is, rearing and bronking are not 'just what horses do'.

There are a couple of possibilities here, 1) the horse has always had this 'issue' which may be physical or mental and the seller had either stopped the behaviour with strong riding or medication prior to sale, thought they had sorted it and after some time it reared it's head again to you.
2) this is new behaviour and is linked either to the management of the mare or she is in pain from something new.

The violence of the reaction 'out of nowhere' makes me think it is likely something hurts.

I would proceed by getting the vet out and arrranging for your pro rider to be there at the same time so they can discuss what has been occurring together. Depending on whether you intend to keep the mare regardless or potentially want to challenged the seller about whether she is fit for purpose I would also discuss with the vet whether they would advise to test the bloods from the vetting at this point. They aren't cheap to test but it can be done in stages, ie they can do an initial screen and then go more into specifics if a definitive report is required.
I would absolutely not be allowing any teenagers to ride this horse as it stands.

Thanks very much for your advice. I'm not going to let the girls ride her again at the moment, youngest is riding a riding school horse in today's dressage comp instead! Hopefully will get chance to talk to their instructor about next steps. I know what you mean about 'out of nowhere' seeming to indicate pain but as I just said in a reply to another message, it's behaviour that does seem to arise from where she is ridden (currently only occurring in the outdoor schools which she doesn't like, and the time when my youngest didn't manage to ride her through it and couldn't get her out of the corner of the arena where she was broncing and rearing, the instructor had to lead her out and in to the indoor school where she behaved perfectly for the next 20 minutes or whatever was left of the lesson).

I don't think she is the horse for us, at least not right now, maybe in the future she would be ok if the girls had a lot more experience and confidence. However as the lady who sold her to us is not from far away and known to staff at the yard, I would be very surprised if anything showed up in the bloods - but the lady selling her is a very strong and experienced rider who I am sure could cope with whatever the horse could throw at her in a way that my girls probably couldn't.

Thanks for getting in touch

 

[ester]

It is worth saying that there are reasons that pain issues only come to fruition in certain areas, tension can for instance mean a tweak of a kissing spine that wouldn't happen if the horse were working in a relaxed manner. It is also the sort of tweak that once happened could resolve pretty quickly and not occur again during a session.
IME it is very rare that any issue with such a violent reaction is truely only behavioural in nature.

'just a bit grumpy - tail swishes and some small bucks, nothing that's an issue.' - that is an issue and indicative of a wider problem

'Everyone I've spoken to has thought she is trying to get out of working properly because it's difficult'

The easiest/less energy expenditure to the horse is usually just to work properly not to respond as this mare is.

Some horses exhibit quite quiet signs that there is an issue, yours seems to be shouting quite loudly. Richard Maxwell was originally largely self taught with regards to the manipulation he does so although I am sure it works well for some I wouldn't take the fact he found not a lot to be diagnostic. If this behaviour was out of the blue I would have expected the seller to be fairly shocked and be asking what may have happened, would have come and had a look, offered to take the horse back etc in order to protect their reputation. It seems that the seller quietly told you that it hadn't happened before and didn't say much more about it which doesn't fill me with confidence that they didn't know about the issues.

 

[beerecco]

Thanks for getting back to me. Would something like kissing spine not be picked up in a 5 stage vetting? I've just had a quick look at indicators, she is reluctant to work into a contact, but seems to love jumping and shows no sign of discomfort. She is fine being tacked up and shows no sensitivity to having her back brushed or stroked.

TBH I haven't contacted the lady who sold the horse, only the previous owner, as I was asking about things that happened when she had the horse before she was put up for sale - she was owned by the previous person for 3 years.. At the same time I think she and the seller are friends so I assume they have discussed it. I know when I most recently contacted the former owner I asked if she'd reared and she said the only behaviour issues she had had with the horse was that she didn't want to hack on her own and did 'a few little bunny hops' in protest, then one time she couldn't get her to leave the yard so sent her off for schooling for two weeks.

You could describe the tail swishes and small bucks as 'little bunny hops' I guess which is what makes me think that it's a continuation of behaviour she had before, and the fact that she displays it when the rider is trying to get her to hack alone but not when she is schooling/jumping in the indoor where she is more comfortable for some reason. I do see what you mean about tension but am still not sure why she should be so uncomfortable in a manege without proper walls or hacking, but then work absolutely fine with no sign of discomfort or grumpiness in the indoor.

I was thinking of contacting the person who actually sold her to us to ask about the rearing - i.e. if it happened when she had the horse preparing her for sale.

Thanks for your advice, it's another thing to think about.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Would something like kissing spine not be picked up in a 5 stage vetting?

I just wanted to pick up on this.

The answer is 'no' because X-rays of the spine are not a part of a 5 stage vetting. Any condition that requires extensive diagnosis or scans, X-rays, scoping etc... wont be picked up by a normal vetting.

 

[beerecco]

OK - many thanks for the info. Definitely another thing to think about then. I will update the thread once we've made any further steps and thanks again for all the helpful replies.

 

[Leo Walker]

It is worth saying that there are reasons that pain issues only come to fruition in certain areas, tension can for instance mean a tweak of a kissing spine that wouldn't happen if the horse were working in a relaxed manner. It is also the sort of tweak that once happened could resolve pretty quickly and not occur again during a session.
IME it is very rare that any issue with such a violent reaction is truely only behavioural in nature.

'just a bit grumpy - tail swishes and some small bucks, nothing that's an issue.' - that is an issue and indicative of a wider problem

'Everyone I've spoken to has thought she is trying to get out of working properly because it's difficult'

The easiest/less energy expenditure to the horse is usually just to work properly not to respond as this mare is.

Some horses exhibit quite quiet signs that there is an issue, yours seems to be shouting quite loudly. Richard Maxwell was originally largely self taught with regards to the manipulation he does so although I am sure it works well for some I wouldn't take the fact he found not a lot to be diagnostic. If this behaviour was out of the blue I would have expected the seller to be fairly shocked and be asking what may have happened, would have come and had a look, offered to take the horse back etc in order to protect their reputation. It seems that the seller quietly told you that it hadn't happened before and didn't say much more about it which doesn't fill me with confidence that they didn't know about the issues.

This! My sister had a mare that was fine schooling with a competent rider and hacking in company but when asked to hack alone used to nap and do small rears. She could be ridden through it and was better with more turn out and regular work. Turned out she had kissing spines when she was xrayed. She had the injections and improved massively for a short while then the behaviour came back

 

[beerecco]

This! My sister had a mare that was fine schooling with a competent rider and hacking in company but when asked to hack alone used to nap and do small rears. She could be ridden through it and was better with more turn out and regular work. Turned out she had kissing spines when she was xrayed. She had the injections and improved massively for a short while then the behaviour came back

That's really interesting!

Normally with the schooling she is ok in the arenas she likes (indoors) but not the outdoor ones - but at the same time that does sound very similar. Thanks very much.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

That's really interesting!

Normally with the schooling she is ok in the arenas she likes (indoors) but not the outdoor ones - but at the same time that does sound very similar. Thanks very much.

That could be because the surfaces in the two schools are different, maybe the outdoor I'd deeper, taking more effort to move her feet through it, causing her pain in her hocks or back.
I'm afraid that ma ny inexperienced owners/riders do blame the horse for what they see as "challenge going behaviour" but over the years, I and many others on here, have learned to listen to the horse and have realised that unusual behaviour, which rearing definitely is, is most often pain related. You don't know this horse well but I think tthatfor an experienced owner who knew her well there would be visible signs that she is not happy, long before she got to vertical rearing. Sometimes riding through a problem isn't the best way to deal with it.

 

[Leo Walker]

That's really interesting!

Normally with the schooling she is ok in the arenas she likes (indoors) but not the outdoor ones - but at the same time that does sound very similar. Thanks very much.

It was just that she was a nice mare. When things were ok she just coped with it. But when it was out of her comfort zone it all got too much and she couldn't. Actually I'd forgotten, but when a mutual friend rode her one day, a very good competent riding school rider, who should have been fine the mare got in a right tizzy and keep shooting off, then took a really strong hold and took off round the area, we had to call her to us to get her to stop. The mare had had total non riders on her before but only plodding around in walk with someone on foot. But when someone rode her who could ride a bit but probably not enough she got really upset. It might not be related but she was a nightmare to load as well, which looking back, was because she was uncomfortable.

It might not be that, but she had been seen by physios etc and the vet who all said there were no issues, but it turns out there were sadly!

 

[beerecco]

OK - thanks. In our case it's been the opposite in a way, in that when my girls ride her she has never reared much apart from in the outdoor school, and then not vertically! Whereas when it's been more experienced and stronger riders she has. My girls have had regular lessons on her and inside it's not been a problem, the only time she has ever bolted is one time near the end of a schooling session (not in a lesson) where my youngest decided to stand up in the saddle in canter along the long side and I think she became a bit unbalanced, kicked out, hit the wall, started broncing along and lost the rider at the corner. I wasn't sure if it was excitement or what but my daughter got back on and carried on and she was fine after. Apart from that she has never bolted except the first day we got her when youngest daughter hacked her out alone with me walking alongside and when she was adjusting her stirrups so had her feet out, a bird flew out of the hedge and spooked the horse, who was standing on a muddy slope and spooked, daughter fell forward over her shoulder and she galloped the mile back to her stable.

One thing that makes me feel it is behaviour related is that when we first got the horse, she was more co-operative and we could get her to hack alone. Now she just plants, backs up and threatens to rear if you try to hack her alone, so I think she feels that she can now make a decision about what she is prepared to do and the girls can't push her. At the same time I see what you're saying about being in her comfort zone - but the first day she arrived if anything you'd think she would be more tense and less in her comfort zone being in a new place?

The surfaces in all 4 schools are different, but her favourite and one of the outdoors are pretty similar regarding depth and softness.

 

[ester]

Well that of course depends if she had been medicated previously

 

[southerncomfort]

You may be right and it may be behavioural, but you won't know unless you rule out physical causes first. It is more usual for a horse to be unsettled to begin with in a new home and then settle down. The fact that it seems to have happened the other way around *MAY* suggest that she had been medicated in some way. If can rule out any physical issue, and as mentioned above that will mean back xrays, then you might need a professional trainer or behaviourist to have a look at her. However, I have to agree with the popular consensus, horses don't become awkward or difficult without reason. By and large they prefer a quiet life and the vast majority of horses that bronc or rear do so because they are in trying to tell the rider that they are in pain.

I once had a pony bolt with me. He'd been trying to tell me for a while that his wolf tooth was hurting but the vet kept telling me it was fine. I got a second opinion, had the tooth removed and he was back to his usual lovely self.

I certainly think your first port of call ought to be to get the bloods tested and get your own vet to give the horse a thorough examination. It might also be worth asking the lady who sold her if the horse saw a vet during the time at her yard and if she or the old owner would object to you seeing the horses's vet records or talking to whichever vet the horse was previously registered with. If they start being cagey I think alarm bells ought to start ringing.

You haven't had this horse long but it sounds like your girls have already had a few tumbles, I mean this kindly but please do get the horse checked over before someone gets very badly hurt.

Best wishes.

 

[beerecco]

Well that of course depends if she had been medicated previously

good point!

 

[beerecco]

Quote Originally Posted by ester "Well that of course depends if she had been medicated previously"

good point!

I can see what you all mean about pain and agree it would be helpful to rule that out as a potential issue. It may be that issues have developed in the 4 months since we bought her I guess. Another friend has recommended an equine chiropractor, and I also have yet to discuss with their instructor and the other instructor who's been schooling her to get their thoughts.

I don't want to be too specific as I don't want to cast aspersions on the seller as she obviously has a reputation and I have no evidence of wrongdoing and am in two minds about whether there has even been any intentional mis-selling, but I do think it's very unlikely that the horse has been medicated. I feel that the horse she was described as isn't necessarily the horse we've bought but that's a bit different, especially if she behaved differently for a stronger rider on a much smaller yard with fewer distractions.

Having thought about it, there are too many links between the yard where she is now kept and the seller's yard for her to have drugged the horse and although I do think this has been a horse who has been difficult in the past from having seen stuff on facebook etc. I am confident that the seller would not put her reputation at risk by medicating her.

Also having seen a friend's horse bought in haste at auction and subsequently found to have been drugged, there was a very sudden change in behaviour when the meds started to wear off - by contrast, I feel that this horse has become gradually more assertive about what she doesn't want to do as she's found that the girls don't necessarily have the experience to know what to do when she stops dead and refuses to go forward.

A staff member at our current yard keeps her horses at the yard where ours came from (one of the reasons we bought her was that this instructor knew the horse from its time at the other yard) so even if she was that unscrupulous (which I don't actually think she is) it would get back pretty quickly. Despite the horse's history, from what the previous owner said, the issues which she personally had with hacking the horse alone weren't replicated when the yard owner took over schooling so I wonder if she either didn't have any issues with the horse, or if she did she just rode her and got on top of them, and looking at the info on Kissing Spine, increasing ridden work should increase the symptoms not reduce them? The previous owner said that for the 8 weeks before sale, the horse was ridden daily to get her back into work as she'd not really been doing much.

Thanks again for all the advice which is all food for thought.

 

[beerecco]

Last reply I promise but I wanted to say I am sorry if I've come across as inconsistent in my messages. I think I've been feeling a bit resentful ever since we bought the horse as we didn't meet the previous owner until after we'd already paid for and taken delivery of the horse. I saw the message on the old owner's facebook page about 'everything went tits up when we got *****' and that made me question everything that I was told about the horse. Additionally I felt that we were put under unreasonable pressure when we'd arranged and paid for a vetting and the certificate hadn't been issued and I didn't want to agree to go ahead until we had the certificate in place to set up insurance.

However, I do think that the previous owner cared about the horse despite finding her difficult, and I don't think that the seller lied to us, I think maybe they knew that the horse could be determined but thought that my girls would be able to cope with her challenges (when we tried her she spooked massively, and swerved from a jump when one of the others was on, then did a massive overjump, and in that context they did cope fine - so maybe the seller saw them as kids who would cope with a bit of a challenge?).

Everyone's responses have challenged me to really think about things and I agree maybe there is something going on with saddle fit or back but I also think the likelihood is that the only difference between the horse at the seller's yard and when we got her was the size of the yard, and the experience and confidence of the rider.

 

[faerie666]

Quote Originally Posted by ester "Well that of course depends if she had been medicated previously"




Having thought about it, there are too many links between the yard where she is now kept and the seller's yard for her to have drugged the horse and although I do think this has been a horse who has been difficult in the past from having seen stuff on facebook etc. I am confident that the seller would not put her reputation at risk by medicating her.

Also having seen a friend's horse bought in haste at auction and subsequently found to have been drugged, there was a very sudden change in behaviour when the meds started to wear off - by contrast, I feel that this horse has become gradually more assertive about what she doesn't want to do as she's found that the girls don't necessarily have the experience to know what to do when she stops dead and refuses to go forward.

"Medicated" and "drugged" aren't necessarily the same thing.
Plenty of conditions such as arthritic changes, kissing spines etc are routinely medicated with steroid injections into the affected area. This reduces the pain and allows the horse to work comfortably for a while, but the effects will wear off over a period of 3-6 months usually, and injections need to be repeated. I think this would fit with the deterioration in your mares behaviour, ie, she was treated before she went on sales livery, was ok for 3-4 months, then symptoms started reappearing. She would have passed a vetting easily while the meds were working, and, unfortunately for you, if the treatment was done more than 21 days before the vetting, won't show in the bloods either.
There isn't, in my eyes anyway, anything wrong with medicating horses like this to allow them to work comfortably, but this should absolutely have been declared to you when you bought her, if that's the case. I can't help but wonder if the old owners simply didn't tell the sales livery yard about it.
I think I would start by asking the old owners if they would be happy for you to talk to their vet about the horse. If they say no, you probably have your answer.


A horse that was doped or buted for an auction, would of course change back much quicker, because the drugs would wear off in a matter of hours, or maybe days.


As an aside, I've had experience with several horses with moderate to severe kissing spines, and the behavioural symptoms were different for all 3.


The first one came to the racing yard I was working at as a complete neurotic mess, who would sometimes bronc until he fell over when mounting, but was ok, if a little tense, if you managed to get on. He was in training for a total of about 2 years, had physio nearly every month, and numerous vet visits, and no one at any point suggested back X-rays. He also had the most amazing fluent, scopey jump I've ever seen, and absolutely loved to jump too. I ended up re-backing him, and he became safe to mount and actually quite a nice ride.
He was given to me after he tweaked a suspensory ligament, and after a few months field rest, I asked a different physio to see him before bringing him back, she took one look at him, and told me she wouldn't touch him until he had his back X-rayed. I took him to the vets 2 days later, it was one of the worst cases of KS the vet had ever seen, and the was put to sleep that same day.

One in particular though, was very similar to your mare. He was a racehorse at the time too, and we used four different gallops/canter tracks regularly. Two of them he was always perfect on, and a small child could have ridden him. The other two tracks, he could be fine on for weeks, and then one day he would start of fine, lovely and relaxed, and then suddenly bolt blindly, or take off broncing until the rider came off. There was never any warning when he was going to do it.
He ended up having the ligament snip surgery, and turned into one off the most reliable, nicest rides on the yard afterwards.

My last horse showed his discomfort by turning spooky and nappy out hacking, and randomly shooting off in the school. Again this didn't happen every time I rode him. He too ended up having the surgery, but sadly, due to the fact he he also had a problem with his sacroiliac joint, he didn't really recover, and was put down 2 months ago.


I'm sorry if I put more worry on you by giving two examples out of 3 that weren't success stories, that was just my own bad luck and plenty of horses are treated successfully. I wanted show that just because horses are in pain, doesn't mean their behaviour is consistent from day to day.

I also wanted to say that even if your mare turns out to have a physical problem, there is a good chance it's something that can be managed, and she still could be the right horse for your daughters. That's if you're happy to pay the vet bills, that is. If not, I would be trying to get my money back from the sellers, and find a new horse.

 

[beerecco]

"Medicated" and "drugged" aren't necessarily the same thing.
Plenty of conditions such as arthritic changes, kissing spines etc are routinely medicated with steroid injections into the affected area. This reduces the pain and allows the horse to work comfortably for a while, but the effects will wear off over a period of 3-6 months usually, and injections need to be repeated. I think this would fit with the deterioration in your mares behaviour, ie, she was treated before she went on sales livery, was ok for 3-4 months, then symptoms started reappearing. She would have passed a vetting easily while the meds were working, and, unfortunately for you, if the treatment was done more than 21 days before the vetting, won't show in the bloods either.
There isn't, in my eyes anyway, anything wrong with medicating horses like this to allow them to work comfortably, but this should absolutely have been declared to you when you bought her, if that's the case. I can't help but wonder if the old owners simply didn't tell the sales livery yard about it.
I think I would start by asking the old owners if they would be happy for you to talk to their vet about the horse. If they say no, you probably have your answer.

Thanks for clarifying this and I see what you mean. So much to learn......!

She is insured with NFU mutual and there are no exclusions because she had a clear vetting so I assume we could get this diagnosed and treated under the policy although I think the max may be £5000 (can't remember now as I shopped about....). Started reading through it yesterday but ran out of time, I will have another look when we get back.

I'm sorry if I put more worry on you by giving two examples out of 3 that weren't success stories, that was just my own bad luck and plenty of horses are treated successfully. I wanted show that just because horses are in pain, doesn't mean their behaviour is consistent from day to day.

I also wanted to say that even if your mare turns out to have a physical problem, there is a good chance it's something that can be managed, and she still could be the right horse for your daughters. That's if you're happy to pay the vet bills, that is. If not, I would be trying to get my money back from the sellers, and find a new horse.

I've messaged the lady who actually sold her to us, not the previous owner, a couple of hours ago, to ask about behaviour issues when she was getting the horse back into shape before sale, and have heard nothing back yet.

It's really helpful to hear about your examples so thanks for sending them through.

 

[ester]

Yes there wasn't necessarily the suggestion that the seller had medicated the horse either, she only had her 8 weeks, most steroid injections last 3-6 months minimum and can last longer.

I am a bit confused I thought you had already spoken to the seller about her behaviour?

A chiropractor won't be able to tell you much other than any muscular tension she have, which is likely not the whole story if it is there (other stuff usually generates it) do get the vet rather than wasting money on other professionals at his stage (a Chiro/physio should also not treat your horse without veterinary permission anyway, and if you asked the vet for permission with the description you have given they would likely advise not until they had seen her)- Fwiw I am very pro- physio my own has shown me how much difference that can make with regards to him looking lame or sound but I have a decade of his history.

 

[Caramac71]

I really feel for you as we have been through similar with my daughter's horse. Daughter was 15 at the time and had loaned previously. She was reasonably capable and we found a very green 5 year old mare who seemed to be exactly what we were looking for.

We had her on trial for a month, had her vetted and bought her. She was very stressed about the move and took a long time to settle, and she was always tail swishy, tense and spooky when ridden - but vet felt there was nothing physically wrong, she was just overly sensitive.

Probably 6 weeks or so after we got her, her behaviour worsened. She started rearing, but this coincided with a new saddle so we out it down to that. She would nap in the corners of the school, and plant, and if my daughter pushed her on she would go up. She actually worked through this over the first summer, probably because my daughter learnt the signs when she was threatening to rear and would change tact to prevent it.

So we got through the first summer, gave her time off over winter and brought her back into work the following February. She started off great but as the intensity of work increased she reverted back to napping and occasionally rearing. She then developed other symptoms that prompted us to get vet to investigate. Everything came back clear - back X-rays, lameness work up with nerve blocks, scoped for ulcers, ovaries scanned, regumate trial ... However vet agreed with us that she thought it was pain related, rather than behavioural, and insurance agreed to a bone scan - which is when we discovered arthritic changes in her spine (facet joints).

2 years on and we are still persevering . Sadly we have had to resign ourselves that she'll never be the competition horse that my daughter wanted - however she is a much happier horse since we've known what we are dealing with. Having said that, we still feel there is perhaps more going on than the vets have found but that's another story.

We've had her 3 years now so we understand her more. She is a lovely affectionate mare and she hasn't a nasty bone in her body, so I do feel her behaviours were her way of telling us something was wrong. Even when she did rear, she would always give warning first, it just took us a while to learn the signs.

Her previous owner was a very experience adult and I think she had learnt to get on with it, which is why it took a few weeks before she realised she could be a bit more challenging and assertive with my daughter.

In your position I think I'd have a chat with a vet and see what they'd suggest. i really hope you get to the bottom of it and get back the lovely mare you thought youd bought. your daughters sound very brave as many kids would refuse to get back on one that reared with them. As a mother i know how scary it is to watch so I hope for all your sakes you get this resolved.

 

[beerecco]

Yes there wasn't necessarily the suggestion that the seller had medicated the horse either, she only had her 8 weeks, most steroid injections last 3-6 months minimum and can last longer.

I am a bit confused I thought you had already spoken to the seller about her behaviour?

OK - sorry not to have been clearer. The previous owner didn't sell the horse, a friend who owns a livery yard sold her instead as the former owner was upset to let her go, so I have only been in contact with the owner who I met for the first time the day the horse was delivered, the seller did say I could contact her any time with any issues but I didn't simply because I had support at the yard where the horse is kept so just asked for advice in person.

A chiropractor won't be able to tell you much other than any muscular tension she have, which is likely not the whole story if it is there (other stuff usually generates it) do get the vet rather than wasting money on other professionals at his stage (a Chiro/physio should also not treat your horse without veterinary permission anyway, and if you asked the vet for permission with the description you have given they would likely advise not until they had seen her)- Fwiw I am very pro- physio my own has shown me how much difference that can make with regards to him looking lame or sound but I have a decade of his history.

Thanks for the feedback about the chiropractor. So really the vet is the first port of call on this by the sound of it.

 

[beerecco]

I really feel for you as we have been through similar with my daughter's horse. Daughter was 15 at the time and had loaned previously. She was reasonably capable and we found a very green 5 year old mare who seemed to be exactly what we were looking for.


In your position I think I'd have a chat with a vet and see what they'd suggest. i really hope you get to the bottom of it and get back the lovely mare you thought youd bought. your daughters sound very brave as many kids would refuse to get back on one that reared with them. As a mother i know how scary it is to watch so I hope for all your sakes you get this resolved.

Thanks very much for getting in touch - that sounds really similar in many ways, my girls had loaned previously and ridden other horses so although they have a lot to learn they have a bit of experience with horses who could be challenging. You're absolutely right I think most horsey mums have nerves of steel (especially when I see the jumps and things that friends of the girls do routinely) but my nerves have certainly been tested recently!

Your description of how the horse behaved sounds exactly like how ours is in the big outdoor school - and the advice we've had is that it's naughtiness. However having heard so many different responses on this thread that are similar, I guess we need to make sure we investigate fully.

Hope that things continue to improve with your mare and hope that you do track down the issue fully if possible. Out of interest, what were the symptoms that made you certain it was pain related? Thanks again for getting in touch.

 

[Caramac71]

Your description of how the horse behaved sounds exactly like how ours is in the big outdoor school - and the advice we've had is that it's naughtiness. However having heard so many different responses on this thread that are similar, I guess we need to make sure we investigate fully.

Hope that things continue to improve with your mare and hope that you do track down the issue fully if possible. Out of interest, what were the symptoms that made you certain it was pain related? Thanks again for getting in touch.

Our mare was labelled as naughty by many people. To be fair, she is a clever horse and she is a big character, so even without pain I think she would be challenging at times . But our physio was always adamant there is no such thing as a naughty horse and she gave us the confidence to go with our gut instinct when we were surrounded by more experienced people who were telling us it was behavioural.

The symptom that made us seek vet advice was when she started kicking out in canter. She'd often previously buck on the transition into canter, which we understood wasnt unusual given her age and how green she was - but this was different. It was once she was in canter that she started kicking out with her left hind. Tried riding through it (was told it was naughtiness!) but over a period of time she got worse. She started to anticipate canter and would back off before asked, then gradually she'd back off from trot until the point when she would barely go forward.

Because there was so little to go on, the vet wanted her ridden lots to try and make symptoms worse, and therefore easier to diagnose. But we ended up with a very unhappy horse and by this stage you could see she was sore in her back - she was so sensitive to even being touched.

I do agree with the previous posters who have said that situations that make their horse more tense will bring on the behaviours. It sounds like yours doesnt feel safe in the outdoor arena, therefore she is more tense and if she is experiencing any pain/discomfort it's going to be more evident.

It's hard though, when you dont know the horse all that well and you aren't hugely experienced, and everyone around you has a different opinion. I hope all turns out well for you and your girls.

 

[beerecco]

Our mare was labelled as naughty by many people. To be fair, she is a clever horse and she is a big character, so even without pain I think she would be challenging at times . But our physio was always adamant there is no such thing as a naughty horse and she gave us the confidence to go with our gut instinct when we were surrounded by more experienced people who were telling us it was behavioural.

The symptom that made us seek vet advice was when she started kicking out in canter. She'd often previously buck on the transition into canter, which we understood wasnt unusual given her age and how green she was - but this was different. It was once she was in canter that she started kicking out with her left hind.

That is really interesting as it's something I've seen ours do a few times, it looked to me like a response to not being quite in balance but although I have now spent many many hours watching lessons and horses being ridden I've still loads to learn. She doesn't do it every time but also does sometimes buck on the transition - doesn't look like a buck that is to unseat the rider in any way, more a balance thing.

It's hard though, when you dont know the horse all that well and you aren't hugely experienced, and everyone around you has a different opinion. I hope all turns out well for you and your girls.

You're absolutely right, I have so much to learn about horses in general and especially about this one, but I do feel like a lot of what you are saying sounds familiar. And yes everyone has advice and different people I really respect have different advice which makes it even harder! Plus she is an intelligent horse, she picks things up really quickly in lessons so say if the girls try an exercise 3 times in a row, she will know what they are looking for by the third time and gets better every time - plus she has shown signs of intelligence by letting herself out of the stable overnight to steal everyone else's food, supplements and treats...!! Although as this led to a very gassy stomach and cuts and grazes all over her head, maybe intelligence but not much forethought.....

Many thanks again for taking the time to respond and giving me another possible view of what's been labelled as naughty / avoidance behaviour.

 

[beerecco]

Hi everyone, just thought I'd give you a quick update on our mare.

Asked round at the yard and pretty much everyone was convinced it was a behaviour issue... I have been oscillating between the two points of view, but in light of the advice I had from staff and other owners at the yard, we moved her to a friend's farm where my friend said she'd do some groundwork with her and try to gently ride our mare through the rearing, and see how things went. The horse settled really well from the point of view of being chilled in the stable and in the field, but the rearing increased to the point that every time she was ridden she would go up vertically - even though my friend rode through it and carried on working or got straight back on on the times she came off. She asked another friend to come and ride her - she rides for a physio so is experienced with riding horses with problems, she thought it was pain related behaviour.

Got the vet out who x-rayed her in case of kissing spines or bone issues in her hocks - both completely clear - so he's coming out again to see her on the lunge and suggested a fortnight's bute trial to see if the behaviour changes which would indicate pain, and then we could investigate further with bone density scans if need be. However he seemed a bit sceptical of the idea that it was pain related, once he'd seen the x-rays.

Yesterday I saw this really interesting film about facial indicators of pain in horses - based on a new report by the Animal Health Trust -

http://www.aht.org.uk/index.php?app...ressions&sid=d8p1f0308451adlb2hwd83phn77083v5

- and it's true that she displays many of these facial expressions - ears back probably 70-80% of the time when ridden, mouth open, we've noticed from photos that sometimes you can see the whites of her eyes, and she's shown a real unwillingness to work in an outline... which seems to tie in with the theory that it is a pain issue. Obviously we're going to work with the vet to see if we can find out if she has any issues causing her to react in such an extreme way to being asked to work in walk and trot by a very kind rider! My concern is that now she has got into this pattern of behaviour, ie the rearing, is it likely to stop even if we do manage to find the source of any pain?

 

[starfish8]

Have you considered something maybe out of the ordinary like a damaged wither? It does sound like pain to me. I assume you've had her saddle checked (and then checked again for a second opinion!)? In terms of fixing the behaviour, I would think if you can eliminate the pain you should expect it to take a while to resolve as she'll be anticipating/remembering the pain to begin with - in your shoes I would be enlisting the help of a professional to get through the worst of that stage, but that's probably more to do with my own abilities rather than saying everyone would need to.

 

[scats]

Well done for getting her xrayed. It does sound like it is a pain issue or has stemmed from a pain issue.

I would be interested to hear the outcome of the bute trial and whether the behaviour stops or lessens. I do hope she doesn't injure anyone in the process though.

 

[ester]

thank you for the update, sometimes we rarely get them. They sound like very good friends and friends of friends!

 

[beerecco]

Thanks for the replies

Just got back from seeing the vet, and there was no sign of lameness on flexion, trot up or lungeing. However the vet thinks she may be 'displaying clinical signs of low grade ulcers' as she is increasingly sensitive in the girth area so the next step is to get her scoped.

Tack check and/or bute trial is the next thing on the list after that, and yes, I am very grateful for the kind support especially of the friend whose farm she is staying on at the moment!