advice please - will a micklem help with rearing?

[beerecco]

There was nothing found to be wrong with the mare at all. The girl stuck at it, was her first horse and her mum said they'd not get another if she was sold. Not sure i would have done, but they got a LOT of lessons. And I mean a lot. Once the mare had some confidence in her rider she was a different horse and is now out competing very successfuly.

What was telling about this mare was the fact she could be ridden through it by basically ignoring her and carrying on with what you were asking her to do. She had just trained her rider to get off and put her away. When they finally clicked they have done everything.

That being said...not sure id have sat a 15 year old on her again after some of her antics.

Thanks for the advice. It does sound a bit like our mare, but not 100%. If it was down to the girls they would be riding her again but it's me who's not keen! Before the rearing started the girls were having 2 lessons a week on her - and I was seeing an improvement in the way she was working in that they were focusing on getting her to work more from the back end, doing a lot of pole work to encourage her to improve her canter and its flexibility etc - jumping is fine so that was mainly done as a treat but the focus was on schooling to get her to work better.

Throughout she has been really good to handle, load, lead, tack up, groom etc although in the period before her ulcers were diagnosed she was very stressed when anyone went near her tummy so despite the ulcers seeming minor, I now think with hindsight they were affecting her.

She's now had 2 weeks of schooling (4 days per week) and the girl who is riding her feels like she's getting to know her a bit better and describes her as 'rude' - she feels that the horse tries to get out of hacking / being ridden where she doesn't want to be by threatening to rear, spinning, napping etc. and can be ridden through it - but sometimes it takes quite a bit of strength of character and a lot of confidence.

She's varying the work with a couple of days hacking round the farm ride in a group and a couple of days of schooling, and from being quite stiff and unbalanced after about 4/5 weeks out of work she is looking a lot more supple. She got a bit overexcited yesterday in a group canter and bronced but that used to happen when my girls were riding her so I think that's just what she's like and feels like excitement rather than that she is trying to eject the rider.

I am feeling a bit more optimistic that the worst of the issues were caused by the ulcers and that we will either (hopefully) be able to find another home for her with a rider who can ride through her quirks or alternately that it may be possible to keep her but definitely my preference at the moment would be to find a home with a more confident rider for her!

Thanks for getting in touch.

 

[beerecco]

TBH, I would not be happy with a vet that said "no, it can't be........" without testing. Almost all behaviour has a physical or emotional cause in humans and animals. An emotional cause for a horse's behaviour would be a previous fright in a particular place, for example but that isn't the case with your mare, as she hasn't been to your yard previously. So, I would expect the vet to explore all possibilities. Some horses do feel so uncomfortable on particular yards, though that their behaviour deteriorates and when they are moved, their behaviour improves.

Thanks for getting back in touch. I do see what you mean...

I have wondered if the yard is ideal as I know some horses struggle with a larger yard, but she seems to have settled in fine - literally walked into her stall after being at my friend's farm for 6 or 7 weeks and started munching at the haynet as if she'd never been away - she never shows any sign of distress or discomfort at being walked round in hand (although when she first arrived in December she was a bit jumpy when walking past the woods etc)

The vet felt that the only other diagnostic that would be worth carrying out should she still be rearing after the ulcer treatment was a full bone scan which he said would be expensive and require her to be admitted to the vet hospital overnight, and he didn't really feel that it was justified as she shows no sign of lameness.

Anyway, as the rearing seems to have stopped after that one reoccurence when hacking it does make me think that it was to do with the pain of the ulcers as it was her consistent behaviour when anyone tried to ride her - and maybe became habitual as a way of getting out of working?

 

[beerecco]

Another update - apart from rolling with rider on board on the farm ride after a hack on a very hot day, she has definitely been better. She's more chilled in the stable, no reaction at all when you go near to her tummy or back end when grooming/washing so I am wondering if she had ulcers before from when we first had her or at least when she was on box rest with cellulitis which started within a fortnight of us buying her. On the other hand, overnight turnout definitely suits her, and once the turnout is decreased with winter weather it may be that her behaviour deteriorates again.

I'm getting conflicting advice from different people about whether we should try to sell her and get something more suitable, or persevere with her, my girls haven't ridden her yet and the schooling has been a bit hit and miss as the girl who's doing it has a lot of other demands on her time which is unfortunate so she's not been consistently worked.

If we could afford just to keep her but not necessarily ride her I would not want to sell as she's a real sweetie in the stable and good in all ways on the ground/dentist/farrier/catching/loading and so on. Also having tentatively started looking again it's reminded me of how much I hated looking for a horse to buy!

I'm wondering if it might work to see if we could loan her to someone who has the confidence to ride her through the napping and then see if we could take her back a couple of years down the line by which time hopefully the girls will be more established in their own riding if we get something more straightforward - any advice?

 

[scats]

I would think you might struggle to find someone willing to loan a horse and sort out its problems, knowing the owner would want it back when it was sorted. That's a bit like putting an awful lot of work into someone else's horse and paying for the privilege.

You say your daughters haven't ridden it for a while (understandable, I wouldn't put my child on a rearer). Did you get this horse for your daughters to ride but they can't ride and you are having to get someone else to ride it for you?

I would move the horse on and find something that your daughters can enjoy. You've done fabulously to continue with it up to now, but life is too short, get something they can enjoy and that you don't have to worry about when they are riding.

 

[beerecco]

I would think you might struggle to find someone willing to loan a horse and sort out its problems, knowing the owner would want it back when it was sorted. That's a bit like putting an awful lot of work into someone else's horse and paying for the privilege.

I can see what you mean, but I wasn't meaning that really, as she isn't really showing the problematic behaviour in the school now, just hacking, so it's more that someone more confident can just ride through the napping and get her going forward and if they didn't have the upfront cash to buy maybe it would suit them - plus they wouldn't have to commit to owning her forever - and it it was working out well for them maybe we could agree to sell.

Although she hasn't reared now since the 2nd/3rd time ridden after being out of work after the ulcer diagnosis, it is possible it would recur with a less confident rider I suppose. It was the first time that the girl who's schooling her took her out on the farm ride. But mainly I feel that it will knock the confidence of my middle daughter if she struggles to get her to move (she just planted/spun with the girls when they tried to hack her alone) and I'd just like them to be able to go out for a hack when they feel like it without them or me being worried. At the same time I am really fond of the horse so reluctant to sell.

But yes what I want is something that they can just get on and have fun and not feel like they have to be on their guard all the time. One of the really experienced staff at the yard has described our mare as 'very intelligent' - she will try to get out of work (mainly hacking, she's pretty much always been ok in the school apart from when she evidently had ulcers and we weren't aware) and if you just carry on, she tends to get on with it but you just have to watch her - whereas what I want is a horse that will not be trying to push the boundaries so that the girls can improve their seat and just enjoy riding.

Anyway thank you for your advice.

 

[be positive]

I think she may be difficult to move on either selling or loaning when she is still proving tricky with the professional riders, I would be tempted to find somewhere to send her for a couple of weeks where she will be worked every day properly, schooling being hit and miss is not helping anyone least of all you who is paying for it, horses like this need consistency initially if they are to have any chance of improving, the yard she is on does not seem to be suitable if they cannot put in the time at this stage.

If you can find somewhere that she will have the work required it may be that she will come round and your daughters can start to ride her or it at least opens up the options which at the moment are limited as you have no idea whether with more regular work she will settle down, I work tricky ones every day, sometimes twice a day before gradually reducing the work to give them a day off then two days or more but only once they are in a good routine and have shown improvement, stopping and starting often means a step forward then two back and is not fair on the horse.

 

[oldie48]

Well done for sorting her out but I'd definitely move her on to a more experienced home and get your daughters something they can enjoy and that will give them confidence. Don't loan her out, another rider may sort her out but there's no guarantee that when she comes back to you that she won't revert to nappy behaviour and tbh she doesn't sound the sort that will loan out easily anyway.

 

[beerecco]

thanks to both of you for advice!

completely agree the inconsistency in schooling is regrettable - unfortunately I was away and not aware that she wasn't being ridden.

Probably just finding a new home is best all round, I'll just be sorry to say goodbye to her if she does go.

 

[Flyermc]

I thought id tell you my story

Ive ALWAYS loved horses, all my life. Apparently even at nursery i used to walk around with a plastic horse all the time. My family were not horsey or particularly well off, but after a family event, we was fortunate enough for both me and my sister to get £500 each that we could do what we wanted and i decided to spend mine on riding lessons.

Anyway i rode at the school, helped out several days a week and longed for my own horse for years! After waiting 16 years, my mum and dad bought me a 4 year recently backed (as in 2 weeks) old Welsh D. He was (and still is) gorgeous, he was a challenge to ride (like any baby) but cheeky not dangerous.

Over the years, we done everything (hacked alone and in company for miles, fun rides, riding holidays, beach rides, showing (never left a show ring without a rosette) jumping, dressage, le trek, hunting, cross country etc etc) he is by far the best pony. I still own him (he's now 21) im married (of course he came to the wedding) with a nearly 3 year old and baby number 2 due in afew weeks.

My pony is so amazing that my little girl rides (sits on him) brushes him and leads him around the yard.

I know you like your mare, but honestly there are amazing pony's out there, that would seem to suit your girls better. Pony's they can have alot of fun with while they are young, but still good enough to do well at showing, jumping, dressage, hunting, beach rides etc etc.

 

[beerecco]

Over the years, we done everything (hacked alone and in company for miles, fun rides, riding holidays, beach rides, showing (never left a show ring without a rosette) jumping, dressage, le trek, hunting, cross country etc etc) he is by far the best pony. I still own him (he's now 21) im married (of course he came to the wedding) with a nearly 3 year old and baby number 2 due in afew weeks.

Thanks for getting in touch. It sounds like you have a lovely pony! If you see another like him please send him to me ;-) Seriously, you're probably right. We have never previously been in the position of having to rehome a pet, when the horse we had on trial failed the vetting and we had to send her back after two weeks (the vet said it simply wouldn't be fair for her to continue jumping as she had issues with her hocks) I was in floods of tears and had to hide in the stable so it's going to be difficult for me to send her away to someone new even though I know she's not right. When I thought she could go to a lovely new home with a friend who is a farmer I was over the moon as I knew she would be well looked after and happy so I'm probably being a bit sentimental about her but also feel responsible for her future, if you know what I mean. At the same time I sometimes wish we'd never bought her!

 

[oldie48]

Over the years we've had to sell on several ponies and horses. Some were much loved but completely outgrown, others were unsuitable, with most we wept buckets as they disappeared down the drive with their new owner, the occasional one I have sighed with relief to see them go to a more suitable home. The only regret that I have is struggling on with one horse for too long blaming myself for our failure to get on, spending a lot of money on training/schooling etc to try to find the right buttons. This horse is now "the horse of a lifetime" for his new owner doing a different job to the one I bought him for. All anyone can do is try the best they can to find a decent home for a horse they move on and they are out there. good luck!

 

[eatmyshorts]

Firstly, huge well done for the commitment & dedication you've shown to this mare & to getting to the bottom her issues. I agree with everyone who has said this kind of behavior is very rarely just behavioral & there is nearly always an underlying cause, as you've found. However, sometimes even when the physical issue has been resolved, horses can have "remembered pain" where even although the pain is gone, they behave in the same way they have learned during protesting about or coping with the pain.

I have a horse i bought as a "problem" ( i like to call them "rehabs") about 14years ago. He'd been deemed unrideable & many people before me had "had a go" including doing things such as keeping him in a stable with live electric fencing round it, strapping homemade devices between his ears, & ear-twitching him. Contrary to being the "dangerous maniac" he was described to me as, he is kind, gentle & sensitive soul who did indeed have underlying physical issues & was reacting because he was in a lot of pain. After numerous vets, backmen, dentists, tack checks etc etc he was finally pain free - but as my vet said healing his body was the easy part, the mind would be a different matter. His remembered pain & learned behavior meant he just couldn't cope with accepting a rider, he'd try to contain his fear but it was like sitting on contained dynamite & when he blew, there was no going back. When my vet gave me sedative tablets to allow him to be ridden & let him realise it was ok, i had a good long think about it, binned the tablets, & retired him. I felt i'd failed - a very experienced behaviorist friend told me i'd succeeded because i knew when to stop before he killed himself, me, or someone else. He's been a very happy, relaxed & beautiful field ornament for about 10 years now.

I'd also agree with selling the mare & getting your daughters a safe first horse they can enjoy (& you can relax watching them ride!). Be honest with new owner - there's a site called Project Horse (i think a Facebook page of the same name) where people openly & honestly sell horses with quirks & issues, & buyers knowingly take on problems & projects - perhaps it maybe worth advertising her on there (although i'm not sure how active it is these days).

Good luck whatever you decide x

 

[beerecco]

Thanks for both your replies. I do think it's probably the time to see if we can find a home for her with someone more experienced. The girl who is schooling her doesn't see her as a problem horse - it does seem that the rearing was to do with the pain and did happen once again after she was brought back into work, but when she had the ulcers it had got to the stage when every time she was ridden she would go straight up. She hasn't reared since then and that's almost 6 weeks ago now. She's advising us to keep the mare and let the kids ride her - but I don't think I have the confidence in her to do that.

In the school she is behaving really well now, tries to push the boundaries on the farm ride but that seems to be improving - but I think with the girls the behaviour might well recur and I can't imagine myself being relaxed about them riding out on the farm ride on their own so I do think she's not right for us. I will definitely tell any prospective purchaser about her background as I wish had happened when we bought her. So hopefully we can find someone who can work with her like the person who's schooling her who's got the experience to know how to deal with her when she challenges her rider.

 

[eatmyshorts]

.... but I don't think I have the confidence in her to do that.

That's the thing, you've hit the nail on the head there. Even if she's ok, you'll always worry rearing will be her go-to evasion should see disagree with something or if something hurts.

 

[beerecco]

That's the thing, you've hit the nail on the head there. Even if she's ok, you'll always worry rearing will be her go-to evasion should see disagree with something or if something hurts.

Your comment has turned out to be very accurate, and my mind is now made up finally.

One of the reasons we have our horse stabled in this particular yard is that there are two local shows within walking distance, one right next door. We took her across to the showground yesterday morning as a friend was going with a few of hers and suggested that we see how our mare coped to help us make our mind up whether to persevere/loan her out or just sell. She was on her toes as we walked her across and more stressy once she got into the showground even though it was early in the morning and there were only a few people there.

My friend has a young homebred WB x Connemara and being of an age where she no longer bounces on landing pays someone to ride him at shows as he can get pretty excited. This young lady got on ours for us to see how she would behave. I was so impressed that she managed to stay in the saddle - our mare tried all her best party tricks from rearing straight up, jumping sideways, bucking unexpectedly, etc, all interspersed with working beautifully.

It was all the things she's thrown at the kids but more so as they haven't had the confidence or experience to keep asking - and I am glad they haven't pushed her harder than they did as there is no way they would have sat through the aftermath.

So she's probably going away to be schooled by the girl who rode her yesterday morning and who thinks she can hopefully get her going to her best - as she was when we bought her, when she seemed like the nicest and most obliging horse in the world with three lovely paces, in the words of my oldest, the nicest canter ever, and a lovely enthusiastic jump - and then we will put her up for sale.

We will be clear about what's happened, and after yesterday I actually have some (unfortunately very poor quality) videos taken on my phone to show her at her most challenging if a potential buyer wants to see them.

I hope that someone will want to take her on who can deal with her behaviour and see her potential.

Now the hard work begins trying to persuade my husband that it hasn't been a complete waste of £10,000 (roughly what we've paid for the horse, livery and vet fees and that's not including what we will be paying out for schooling, livery etc.) and that hopefully it will be possible for us to find another horse for the kids that won't be pouring more money down the drain.

 

[beerecco]

Just had a message to say that the very experienced and competent rider who has been trying to bring her on for us had taken her to a show today and she reared and went over backwards on her. I haven't heard if she's ok after the initial message to say what had happened so very concerned. Everyone who said we should sell her has certainly been proven right! But I don't think in all conscience we can even consider selling her as a ridden horse now. No idea what to do next. Is there any point in contacting the person who sold her to us again - although when I got in touch before she said she couldn't help me.

I was helping at a show yesterday and chatting with the course designer, she knew the person who sold the horse to us and advised me if someone sells 5 horses a year they are classed as a dealer, but at the same time not sure if I have any rights as I transferred the money direct to the former owner not to the yard owner.

Now even my oldest daughter is saying maybe we shouldn't even consider getting another horse after this :-(

 

[Leo Walker]

Everyone who said we should sell her has certainly been proven right! But I don't think in all conscience we can even consider selling her as a ridden horse now. No idea what to do next.

If I couldnt or didnt want to keep her permanently in retirement I would have her PTS. It wont be very nice for you, but it safeguards her and prevents anyone being killed or seriously injured. I've got a friend who is in a wheelchair and will never walk again after a horse went over backwards on her. Its the most dangerous thing a horse can do and once they learn it, its their go to. And no matter what you do or how you do it, if you pass this horse on someone will try and ride it again.

 

[beerecco]

OK - thank you. The same thought had occurred to me but it feels awful to think of putting a completely healthy horse to sleep. someone suggested blood donor so I would also like to consider that if she's big enough. Wish we had the land where we could keep her or enough money to keep her and another one.

 

[Leo Walker]

She isnt completely healthy. There is almost certainly an undiagnosed issue that causes the behaviour. Horses live in the now. They have no concept of the future. It is awful, but only for you. I would have it done where she is and I would have it done ASAP. If she comes back to you, it will be harder on you, you have a bit of distance at the moment. If you leave it to long you start to doubt yourself.

The blood bank might be an option. I'm not sure how long the waiting lists are or if she is suitable, but there is no harm in trying and then you know you have explored all the options.

 

[ester]

I think that while some seem to do it once and scare themselves not to do it again but the trouble is that even to do it once shows a staggering lack of self preservation. I do hope your rider is ok. And no, I don't think you should be selling her on.

Re. the situation with the seller, it might be worth another thread but even with the clear cut cases after only a short period of time it can be a lot of work and end up messy. Having had the horse since January (?) now I think any recompense is unlikely at this stage.

 

[MeltingSnowflake]

I'm so sorry to hear it's turned out this way - but I think others here are right in that it may be best to PTS. You have a clear conscience that you really have tried everything - there's no reason to think that another owner would get different results. Retiring her as a companion horse is an option, but people's circumstances change and she could well be sold on again.

I think the only way to preserve your clear conscience it to make sure that she doesn't hurt anyone in the future - and also that she doesn't end up being passed from place to place, eventually being shipped over to France for meat. She's been treated well by you, let that be the happy end to her story.

 

[Flyermc]

What a horrible situation, i hope the rider is OK.

I think your a great owner, you've tried any awful lot to help her

 

[scats]

So sorry to hear this, I hope the rider is ok.

I would agree that this is not a horse to be sold on now and I would be tempted to put it to sleep. Past experience of a friend selling a rearer and serial bucker on as a project (buyer knew the score), the horse was passed around several times, hurt someone, went through sales at least once and was never heard of again. I just wish she had had it put to sleep.

 

[beerecco]

Hi everyone and many thanks again for all your advice. The very good news is that the rider is ok. I'm away from home for a little while and not very good at sending messages on my phone but to summarise my feelings: I agree that we don't want to send the mare off potentially into a situation where another person gets hurt or she's not looked after properly. A lot to think about.... for the next few days she will be out in the field with her buddies while we decide what to do next.

 

[oldie48]

Pleased to hear that your rider is OK and that your daughters didn't get hurt riding this mare. There are some dishonest and unscrupulous people out there who will do anything to make money and I very much doubt that you will get anywhere with the dealer from whom you bought this mare, especially as quite a long time has passed. Clearly from your posts you have done everything you can for the mare and it's sad for all concerned that it hasn't worked out better. Please don't consider breeding from her or selling on as a brood mare, a mare's temperament is so important in producing nice foals and she doesn't sound suitable. Best wishes with whatever you decide but IMHO there's worse things that can happen to a horse than being PTS.

 

[scats]

Also, I do hope this won't put you off horse ownership. I've followed this whole thread from the beginning and you come across as the type of person who really deserves to have a lovely horse for you and your daughters to enjoy.

Good luck with whatever you decide for this mare.

 

[npage123]

OP, I'm immensely impressed by your perseverance throughout all these months (which must have felt very challenging and upsetting at times) and having the best intentions to do what's right by the horse, taking into consideration all the numerous problems that's been cropping up.

Please do not read my post as a criticism to anything that you've done/haven't done, but rather just me writing down on the forum what this post has made me think of (as it's an open forum where people come up with all sorts of responses, quite often off topic, as I'm probably about to do now).

I'll start by saying that regarding the hacking - the napping, spinning around and desire to run back to the stables, is pretty much normal horse behaviour, unless the horse has been very patiently been taught that hacking on his own and leaving the herd is not as bad as they think it is. Patience is a virtue. It can take weeks or months to 'make it ok' for a horse to hack out on his own. Leading a horse from the ground initially on the hacking route, then progressing to long-reining the horse along that route to build up his confidence (to be at the front and not follow a leader), only then getting a rider on board but with someone walking along and with a lead rope clipped to the bridle for safety, then doing the hacking alone. (Obviously it would always be a much more pleasurable experience from a horse's point of view to be accompanied by other experienced and calm horses, to copy them and enjoy the experience rather than hacking out on his own and constantly having the inclination to get back to the stables and herd.)

I was going reply sooner with an alternative thought but then decided to read through (most) of the other posts first. I think only Morgan123 touched on the same sort of subject (going bitless). I'm maybe going to be off-topic here considering recent developments but wanted to say my say all the same.

IMHO (not taking any medical problems into consideration) I think that your mare has possibly never been taught proper groundwork as a youngster, nor the concept of pressure and immediate release when the correct movement has been achieved. It takes someone with an incredible amount of experience (a true professional, who knows that the only 'gadgets' that's needed is a basic halter and long read rein) to pick up the tiny little signals and cues that a horse gives when he is misunderstanding what is wanted from him, and also a special person to then react in such a way as to make it clear to the horse what he's told to do instead, i.e. to correct his behaviour.

Horses are incredibly good at reading the handler's body position and movements (i.e. non-verbal communication) and will incredibly soon realise that when they try to dominate the handler and can get away with it, that that particular quick action is all that it takes to dominate the handler. And that can then become an ingrained behaviour on the horse's part as he realises that every time that he does that specific thing or other dominant type of moves, he manages to MOVE THE TRAINER, instead of the trainer moving the horse. If groundwork is done to perfection, then starting a horse is a straight-forward procedure, and can be done successfully bitless. Initially in a small area where you won't be worried that the horse can maybe bolt and take off with you, and so that you can only concentrate on things like sitting in a neutral position, thinking about what your left or right hand is doing, thinking about your weight distribution, etc.

The first time anyone sits on the horse to start it - there's also a lot of clues and signs to look out for as to whether the horse is nervous about what's happening, if he's ready, and whether more time and patience is needed before the rider gets on. Things like flicking the tail (unless it's to get rid of flies), positioning the flank towards the rider, yanking the head up, pinning the ears back, moving backwards/sideways/forwards even before a foot is put in the stirrup, etc.

The horse is set up to 'a problem horse' when it comes to riding and the basics of groundwork hasn't been established. If the concept of pressure and release hasn't been learnt properly, if during groundwork the horse won't flex their neck to the left or to the right with gentle one rein action to either the left or the right, if backing up with one cue word hasn't been achieved, and if walking forwards with a eg. a click and 'walk on' doesn't happen, then in most cases, you can't possibly expect the horse to understand what is asked from him when being ridden for the first time.

I want to make it clear that I'm not saying that in your horse's case the correct training hasn't been given or that she's been treated harshly. I don't know your mare's history and how she's been treated all of her life. It's simply that this whole post has made me think about all these things. Please don't see my post as a criticism on what you, your mare's trainers and riders have been doing through the years, as I wasn't there to see it all.

I do believe that horses aren't born naughty. Sure, they've got different personalities and some will be more cheeky and push their luck, and it's usually these ones who succeed in dominating humans and causing behaviour and ridden problems when allowed to get away with it. And when ridden, even more problems are created when harsher bits are used over years and more gadgets are thrown in for good measure. If a horse has learnt bad behaviour, he will eventually not feel the constant yanking and pulling in his mouth, the constant kicking kicking kicking, usually with spurs, doesn't mean anything other than pain. Some horse become experts at assessing the rider from the first moment he lays eyes on them, and keep assessing the rider when the handling is being done whilst grooming and tacking up, and will try their usual tricks of bucking or rearing if they perceive that they can get rid of this human on his back when the same old incorrect riding techniques are being used.

I'm very sorry for everything you and your kids have been going through. I think you've already come to the decision that this mare is not the right one for you and your family, and I think most of the other posters feel the same way. You've spent an incredible amount of time and money on this mare, but sometimes you've got to cut your losses and move on with things as this whole scenario must feel like such a long drawn-out nightmare for you and you're probably ready to start the next chapter in your horsey world. I wish you the best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[Leo Walker]

I'll start by saying that regarding the hacking - the napping, spinning around and desire to run back to the stables, is pretty much normal horse behaviour, unless the horse has been very patiently been taught that hacking on his own and leaving the herd is not as bad as they think it is.

Its not. Not in any shape or form napping, spinning and rearing normal horse behaviour in any horse.

This is a mature, broken and established horse sold as suitable for a first horse, not a youngster or newly broken horse. I do agree that horses arent born naughty, But in my experience its pain that makes them naughty, not anything to do with dominance. Perhaps this wasnt the time and place for you to put your thoughts down.

 

[npage123]

Its not. Not in any shape or form napping, spinning and rearing normal horse behaviour in any horse.

This is a mature, broken and established horse sold as suitable for a first horse, not a youngster or newly broken horse. I do agree that horses arent born naughty, But in my experience its pain that makes them naughty, not anything to do with dominance. Perhaps this wasnt the time and place for you to put your thoughts down.

Re-reading that quote of mine again, I don't think I've worded it properly. What I meant to say was that if a youngster is made to leave their herd for the first time, their instinct to stay with the herd is very strong and they'd want to rejoin the herd, and in the wrong trainer's hands this could lead to undesirable behaviour on the horse's part if not dealt with correctly.

I've tried to make it clear that I was going 'off topic' and if anyone disagree with anything that I've said, then that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I realise that the OP's mare is mature and established in her ways, but all the posts that I've read has made me think about the very first training of the horse and where problems potentially could start, hence the reason for jotting down all my thoughts.

OP, if my post has upset you in any way or you feel it was inappropriate of me to ramble on about stuff in general, then I truly apologise as upsetting you was the last thing that I wanted to do.

 

[be positive]

Re-reading that quote of mine again, I don't think I've worded it properly. What I meant to say was that if a youngster is made to leave their herd for the first time, their instinct to stay with the herd is very strong and they'd want to rejoin the herd, and in the wrong trainer's hands this could lead to undesirable behaviour on the horse's part if not dealt with correctly.

I've tried to make it clear that I was going 'off topic' and if anyone disagree with anything that I've said, then that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I realise that the OP's mare is mature and established in her ways, but all the posts that I've read has made me think about the very first training of the horse and where problems potentially could start, hence the reason for jotting down all my thoughts.

OP, if my post has upset you in any way or you feel it was inappropriate of me to ramble on about stuff in general, then I truly apologise as upsetting you was the last thing that I wanted to do.

A youngster will possibly protest about leaving the herd, if it was in one which many are not, but it is not asked to leave the herd and go out for a ride on day 1, it is conditioned to leave by being brought in, doing some work then going back out over a period of time, usually years as very few youngsters live out 24/7 in large herds most will come in at some point to be stabled overnight for some of the winter, have regular hoof care, some may be sold on well before they are backed and learn that there is life outside.

I don't disagree with all you wrote but there were a fair few assumptions and generalisations that may or may not be appropriate and are certainly beyond the control of the OP, any horse can go wrong at any stage of it's life, if well started it is less likely to but if pain is involved then training is not the only answer and with the OP's horse it is well past the stage where the average trainer can help, they have tried but do not have the experience or resources to keep going with what is proving to be a very difficult and potentially dangerous horse, I think if they decide to pts that is the responsible thing to do and that they deserve credit for not passing her on to an uncertain future, I wish more people would be brave enough to do this.