advice please - will a micklem help with rearing?

npage123

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A youngster will possibly protest about leaving the herd, if it was in one which many are not, but it is not asked to leave the herd and go out for a ride on day 1, it is conditioned to leave by being brought in, doing some work then going back out over a period of time, usually years as very few youngsters live out 24/7 in large herds most will come in at some point to be stabled overnight for some of the winter, have regular hoof care, some may be sold on well before they are backed and learn that there is life outside.

I agree with this and you've said it better than I could have. I definitely didn't mean that a youngster are just brought in and hacked out on day 1. A lot of my post was about the importance of good groundwork with lots of patience, prior to riding.
Have sent OP a PM.
 

Leo Walker

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Re-reading that quote of mine again, I don't think I've worded it properly. I've tried to make it clear that I was going 'off topic' and if anyone disagree with anything that I've said, then that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I realise that the OP's mare is mature and established in her ways, but all the posts that I've read has made me think about the very first training of the horse and where problems potentially could start, hence the reason for jotting down all my thoughts.

OP, if my post has upset you in any way or you feel it was inappropriate of me to ramble on about stuff in general, then I truly apologise as upsetting you was the last thing that I wanted to do.

Your thoughts would make an interesting post of their own, but not on a thread where someone is trying to make a decision that might ultimately end up with the horse PTS. Perhaps I'm being too sensitive as it feels like yesterday I lost mine and had to listen to a couple people telling me their thought and opinions. It make an horrifically difficult situation much worse.
 

beerecco

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Hello everyone,

I'm feeling bad that my initial post has led to a bit of stress on the forum. I am really touched at the number of people who've taken the time to give me advice on this topic and that youve been so considerate of my feelings. 'Npage123' contacted me offlist to reassure me that there wasn't any criticism intended and I believe that is the case - although I did initially feel defensive but rereading could see it was more a reflection on the poor starts some animals might have.

I have thought off and on since we got the mare that she didn't look very happy to be ridden for whatever reason. I mentioned the ethogram(?) for detecting pain in horses through facial expression (developed I think by the animal health trust) to our vet and he pooh-poohed it, but most of the time I think her facial expression looks tense or pained when she is being ridden. Although I've oscillated on this, and I'm sure some of it is probably established behaviour, it does feel that there is maybe more going on.

So (and apologies noage123 as this is copied and pasted from what I sent to you) I've now arranged a physio appointment for our mare and will also get the tack rechecked as I don't want to do anything as definite as putting her to sleep if there is another option. It might be that we are in a position to get a place with a bit of land in the medium term where she could live as a companion but that is far from definite and probably not something that I should even be considering but I just want to explore all the options anyway.

A huge thank you to everyone who gallantly leapt to my defence, I hate to be the cause of disharmony so wanted to say thanks and that I am ok, especially now that we have a bit of a plan, that nobody is going to be putting themselves in danger by sitting on her, and that we are definitely going to give her the best possible chance. And even more so that the rider is not much the worse for wear!

If there is a happy outcome and the physio finds something that might be the root of the problem I will let you know. Thanks again everyone for being so supportive.
 

beerecco

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It feels like yesterday I lost mine and had to listen to a couple people telling me their thought and opinions. It make an horrifically difficult situation much worse.

Making the decision to PTS an obviously infirm and probably suffering cat or dog is something I found hugely painful so I'm sure you're right if it comes to that with a horse who seems healthy and enjoying life it will feel unbearable. I'm still hoping it might not come to that. It must be so much worse when you've really built a bond with the horse. :-( I really hope that the pain becomes less over time.
 

npage123

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Your thoughts would make an interesting post of their own, but not on a thread where someone is trying to make a decision that might ultimately end up with the horse PTS. Perhaps I'm being too sensitive as it feels like yesterday I lost mine and had to listen to a couple people telling me their thought and opinions. It make an horrifically difficult situation much worse.

I apologise for my 1st long post and you are right, it wasn't the time or the place to post it.

I'm very sorry that you've had to deal with a difficult PTS situation, and that my post has brought back memories of it. It's one of the most difficult things in life to deal with and I feel awful that I've caused you to relive some of the grieve.
 
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npage123

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A youngster will possibly protest about leaving the herd, if it was in one which many are not, but it is not asked to leave the herd and go out for a ride on day 1, it is conditioned to leave by being brought in, doing some work then going back out over a period of time, usually years as very few youngsters live out 24/7 in large herds most will come in at some point to be stabled overnight for some of the winter, have regular hoof care, some may be sold on well before they are backed and learn that there is life outside.

I don't disagree with all you wrote but there were a fair few assumptions and generalisations that may or may not be appropriate and are certainly beyond the control of the OP, any horse can go wrong at any stage of it's life, if well started it is less likely to but if pain is involved then training is not the only answer and with the OP's horse it is well past the stage where the average trainer can help, they have tried but do not have the experience or resources to keep going with what is proving to be a very difficult and potentially dangerous horse, I think if they decide to pts that is the responsible thing to do and that they deserve credit for not passing her on to an uncertain future, I wish more people would be brave enough to do this.

I've always respected your posts in the past and yet again you are the voice of reason. Like Leo Walker said, it wasn't the right time or place for my post. I've already privately apologised to the OP for my inappropriate post and gone into more detail about my reasons for doing so.

I don't mind apologising on here publicly too that my post was inappropriate and sorry if I p**sed people off or hurt them in any way by posting anything insensitive.

Be Positive, thank you for coming to the OP's defence as she deserves all the support she can get. If I was able to, I would have turned back time posted a completely different post, one with only compassion, praise and admiration for OP's dedication and the incredible amount of time and money spent to try and get to the bottom of the mare's problems.
 
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Leo Walker

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I apologise for my 1st long post and you are right, it wasn't the time or the place to post it.

I'm very sorry that you've had to deal with a difficult PTS situation, and that my post has brought back memories of it. It's one of the most difficult things in life to deal with and I feel awful that I've caused you to relive some of the grieve.

Its ok, its part of it, Facebook memories like to kick on an almost daily basis at the minute!

I think you have been very gracious and gone out of your way to make sure you put things right and behaved much better than I do usually. So apology accepted, and I'm sorry if I upset you in anyway.
 
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OP how are things going? Any updates? Hope things are better for yours, your girls' and the mare's sake, sounds like you've gone above and beyond for this horse. Really admire you for that x
 

be positive

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I've always respected your posts in the past and yet again you are the voice of reason. Like Leo Walker said, it wasn't the right time or place for my post. I've already privately apologised to the OP for my inappropriate post and gone into more detail about my reasons for doing so.

I don't mind apologising on here publicly too that my post was inappropriate and sorry if I p**sed people off or hurt them in any way by posting anything insensitive.

Be Positive, thank you for coming to the OP's defence as she deserves all the support she can get. If I was able to, I would have turned back time posted a completely different post, one with only compassion, praise and admiration for OP's dedication and the incredible amount of time and money spent to try and get to the bottom of the mare's problems.

I think your post was done with the best intentions and there was a lot of sense in it, most horses are made or ruined by their early training and in many cases your post would have been helpful but in this case I felt it inappropriate because the OP is a novice owner, not even a rider, had bought a so called schoolmaster and had no influence on what had happened at any stage of it's training, has had some professional input and is not in the position to do much more in the circumstances.

I don't think you need to feel bad, you have apologised to the OP which was not really necessary as your post was not really a personal criticism it was just the wrong thread to air your views, maybe start a new one in C&T to get a debate going that is interesting and can get some thoughts from everyone.

I think the OP is in a really difficult position, novice owners, very tricky horse, not sure how experienced the yard is but they are doing all they can in the circumstances to try and do the best for the horse which may well have been seriously let down in the past, most horses that have a "history" get passed on without ever being given a chance and the OP is trying her utmost to do all she can, many people would have sent it off to a dealer without a second thought, maybe they will find the key and turn this one around.
 

beerecco

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OP how are things going? Any updates? Hope things are better for yours, your girls' and the mare's sake, sounds like you've gone above and beyond for this horse. Really admire you for that x

Thanks for getting in touch, no news yet, but I'll update the post when there is anything! Thanks everyone for being so kind and supportive, it means a lot.
 
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Thanks for getting in touch, no news yet, but I'll update the post when there is anything! Thanks everyone for being so kind and supportive, it means a lot.

Okay thank you for the reply :) Hope everyone stays safe and happy for the time being.

Just a thought - instead of having horse PTS if it doesn't get better have you considered using horses4homes to try and rehome as a non ridden companion, or surrendering to a rescue/sanctuary?

This thread has made me fervently wish I had the time and space and finances to set up a refuge for horses like yours where they could just chill for the rest of their lives - I know you're not sure what's going on, though, and I do hope you find out what, purely for your own peace of mind. x If I had my own land I'd say bring her over to me to be a pampered field ornament!! :D
 
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beerecco

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She would make a good field ornament - she's very pretty and very good in all ways but ridden!

Heading to the wilds of Scotland early tomorrow and not sure if I will have internet access so I definitely won't be updating the post for a while.... hope you all have a good few days.
 

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Just a thought - instead of having horse PTS if it doesn't get better have you considered using horses4homes to try and rehome as a non ridden companion, or surrendering to a rescue/sanctuary?
Argghh, no, no, no.

If rehomed as a non ridden companion, then sooner or later someone will have a go at riding her again.

Rescues are full to overflowing with genuine cruelty and neglect cases, so they are very unlikely to take her on.
 
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Argghh, no, no, no.

If rehomed as a non ridden companion, then sooner or later someone will have a go at riding her again.

Rescues are full to overflowing with genuine cruelty and neglect cases, so they are very unlikely to take her on.

It was just a suggestion to avoid a nice sounding horse having to be PTS. Via horses4homes a permanent loan contract is drawn up stating whether horse can/cannot be ridden and it's not allowed to go against it; surely life as a pasture pet is much preferable to being PTS if it can be avoided? If it can't then I agree euthanasia is best to horse being needlessly passed from pillar to post.
Horse might actually be suitable for driving or horse agility as well though I don't really know enough about those to comment.
 

beerecco

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Well - she is still with us. It turned out the saddle was a very poor fit (away too big so would have been lying wrong and causing pressure in the wrong places, poor thing) so that would have been causing her pain every time someone sat on her. We had a smaller saddle fitted to her, but although this definitely improved the situation, although we thought for a while she was sorted, when she went into a busy environment the behaviour recurred (although not as extreme) so we are wondering if it was a combination of stress and remembered pain. At the moment we're wondering if it might work to restart her from scratch - it's been suggested to us that this might work especially if the issue is remembered pain associated with being ridden in ill fitting tack and we feel like it would be better to give her the chance if possible, rather than PTS if it can be avoided.
 

xxKatxx

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Have you thought about getting her some physiotherapy? When my guys have had saddles that have stopped fitting they've had residual muscle soreness on their backs that was caused by the badly fitting saddles, so when we've had new saddles/saddles altered we've always got their backs checked by a physio at the same time to make sure that they aren't still sore and treat anything that's still there!

ACPAT registered physios do need a referral from a vet in order to treat, but I've always found the vets are happy to refer if you know you've had a badly fitting saddle!
 

beerecco

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She has had physiotherapy, in fact she's seen two now to check, they couldn't find any issues or soreness. but thanks for the suggestion.
 

xxKatxx

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That's fab if she's got a fitting saddle and clear from the physio, at least you're starting from a good point for those if you do go down the re-backing route. I was in a very similar situation with my first horse as a teenager, which was due to a combination of pain issues and some issues that weren't really disclosed when buying her that made her not really a suitable first horse candidate (one being that she was absolutely terrified of cars), and then the issues being exacerbated by novice riding/handling!

After treating the lameness issues, we found a very supportive instructor, who specialised in more unconventional horses, and we went down a re-education route with her, completely re-teaching her manners on the ground, and then progressed this gradually to under saddle. It was a very slow process for a long time, due to me being a novice rider at the time, but she is great now. It wasn't as far as completely re-backing, but it was definitely a re-education for her.

At times, there were points when the behaviour re-occured, and looking back now, I probably would have been faster to check saddles/back when this had happened- at one point she was having her saddle adjusted every couple months, followed by a physio check to check for soreness, and the behaviour was still there and the physio was still finding soreness- after 3 times of this, we changed saddle fitters and got a new saddle, and she returned to normal.

So i guess my point is there is often light at the end of the tunnel, even if it takes a lot of false starts to get there! Probably the most important thing for me was to get the right help with her, so she was re-educated in the right way, as well as being more pro-active in keeping on top of things that could be niggling at her xx
 

beerecco

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Thanks, that is really encouraging. I wish we had checked the saddle way earlier but we didn't but at the same time, the saddle fitter thought it had been ill fitting for a long time probably before she came to us, and I think her issues were well established. Well done to you for sticking with it and sorting your horse out.
 

npage123

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It's shocking that there are so many saddlers out there that get away with selling ill-fitting saddles. Even made-to-measure saddles sometimes fit completely wrong. A friend of mine paid good money for what was supposed to be a nice new fitting made-to-measure saddle, but it transpired that it was a really bad job. On top of the initial payment, she had to pay him twice more to come and make further adjustments - and it was still not fitting well. She sold it in the end. I really hope that you've managed to find a saddler that does a good job and best wishes with the re-training of the horse. :)
 

beerecco

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Thank you! I think it's going to be a long time before we know whether we are on the right lines, probably a few months, but I'll update when I feel like we know one way or another whether things are working out.
 

beerecco

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Hi everyone, thanks for thinking of me and sorry for the belated reply!

Our mare has gone to a new home, in December she went to a very experienced lady on loan for her to decide whether she could work with her. She'd had similar horses before and wanted a challenge. It's been hit and miss with some really positive days and some where she was back to her old ways but they have really bonded and she decided she wants to keep her, which is a huge relief. I felt that if it didn't work out with her we would have to probably PTS and I would have really struggled to bring myself to do it as she was young and the vets could find no health issues with her, plus she seemed to have quality of life, but not being in a position to keep her unless the girls stopped riding because we can't afford to keep two at the moment, I felt pretty torn.

We've got a lovely gelding who is a very green 7 year old, he has had the girls off more times than I can count but through his inexperience jumping or excitement at galloping in a group or something rather than feeling that his aim in life is to stop them riding him. He just waits for them to climb back on! He's spent most of his time in a field or occasionally hacking before he came to us so they're learning together. He's a sweetie and we all love him, and I feel happy with them going off for a hack/a jumping session without spending the whole time on tenterhooks wondering what's going to happen.

In a lot of ways he's much less straightforward as he's been schooled whereas our mare, when she behaved, was well schooled and responsive. But I feel that his nature is completely different and I'm so happy we found him. :)
 
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