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Annagain

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Something's just occurred to me (I'm not sure why I didn't think of this before but I suppose I was fixed on the 'dodgy dealer' element). Could the stress of two moves (to the dealer and then to you) in such a short time have triggered ulcers? I know it's not the classic presentation but if he's very different from the horse you saw initially and the old owner confirms he was great with her it could be an explanation for the change in him?
 

nutjob

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Thank you for your response; can one post anonymously on Facebook; the only feedback I found in relation to this dealer was very positive and I don't want to post anything identifying myself at present

Yes you can post anonymously here https://www.facebook.com/groups/673069126109438 I've seen quite a few posts like that as people don't want to be identified and either get bullied or get threatened with legal action for libel. I already had a run in with 2 dodgy dealers both of which had no previous issues recorded anywhere. After posting my story it turned out that there was a whole host of people who had problems with the pair of them. Most were happy to share their stories by pm but didn't want to post openly due to one of the characters being involved with far more serious activities than just dodgy horse dealing. The dodgy dealer admins are very helpful also as they see this kind of stuff all the time. Good luck.
 

onemoretime

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Hi the original vetting was carried out by a vet local to the dealer (not their vet) and he was seen yesterday by a vet from the practice local to me. The vet who saw him yesterday verbally stated he felt it likely the issues were there prior to purchase but advised all he can comment on his repot is what he observed and not give an indication on when this became an issue.

Sounds very much like the situation I found myself in some years ago now. Did you have blood pulled at the vetting? You have a right to send the horse back and have a full refund. Sounds as though the horse may have been involved in a fall. If you want to pm me with any questions I am more than happy to help. The dealer who caught me came well recommended on this forum!! Horse was full of bute!!!
 

onemoretime

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HI thank you for all the responses, I have had him nine days and the issues were noted within a few days. The local vet is pretty clear this is a pre existing issue, not something he has done since I got him. Bloods were taken and I have requested they are run, he is very different ridden to how was when I tried him but very relaxed on the ground. I will.be sending a letter and we will.see where we go. I am.not sure I can return him unless the dealer agrees to take him back? While I want for the dealer's response I will obviously continue to care for him and seek veterinary attention if he is unwell.or in pain but I m not going to be arranging more extensive medical tests at this stage. If he can't go back I'll have to decide what to do next. The vet here has asked for him to be ridden on one more occasion, to see if the issues remain consistent. Apart from.that he wont be ridden. There could need to be some difficult choices made at some stage.
.

Be very careful riding him if his back is bad. The horse I bought had me off twice as his back was so sore. Hadn't been on the floor for 40 years.
 

onemoretime

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Dealers take a chance as to whether you will run the bloods as its expensive. They hope you will fall in love with the horse and just keep him, they've got your money and that's all they care about sadly!
 

onemoretime

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This is an endearing approach OP, but please don’t feel compelled to retire this horse- it can be an expensive and exhausting experience. I think you can and should return this horse, it’s not your problem that the horse was broken before you got him and you shouldn’t feel compelled to shoulder what is someone else’s, I.e the dealers problem. Kick up a fuss and pursue it, some less reputable dealers bank on people like you to retire broken horses and negate them of responsibility, don’t let them get away with it!

Agree with this.
Thank you for your response; can one post anonymously on Facebook; the only feedback I found in relation to this dealer was very positive and I don't want to post anything identifying myself at present

Yes you can post anonymously just contact the Admin and send your questions to her and she will post without revelling your name. Good luck and Im so sorry, I know how stressful this situation is believe me.
 

onemoretime

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Yes you can post anonymously here https://www.facebook.com/groups/673069126109438 I've seen quite a few posts like that as people don't want to be identified and either get bullied or get threatened with legal action for libel. I already had a run in with 2 dodgy dealers both of which had no previous issues recorded anywhere. After posting my story it turned out that there was a whole host of people who had problems with the pair of them. Most were happy to share their stories by pm but didn't want to post openly due to one of the characters being involved with far more serious activities than just dodgy horse dealing. The dodgy dealer admins are very helpful also as they see this kind of stuff all the time. Good luck.

I had the same when I posted my story but received lots of pm's from people who had trouble.
 

Wishfilly

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Sorry posted to quickly; the horse is still presenting in the same way, the vet had asked for him to be ridden again to see if the picture was consistent; unfortunately it it hasn't , the instructor advised there has has been no improvement and he appears worried when ridden particularly in canter. I had the saddler out yesterday, the vet doesn't think the fit of the tack has caused the issues , but I had already booked it in. I discussed the situation with the saddler and suggested the issues could have been caused poorly fitting tack at the dealers giving him a sore back and suggested getting a physio to have a look. I contacted his old owner to ask again if he had had any issues with them, they were adamant he hadn't and he had had regular physio visits everything had been fine and they were equally adamant he was sound when they sold him last month. It's evident from what is on social media that he had been a much loved member of their family for years and they looked to be an experienced equine family. The reason for selling was valid and the information they provided matches up what the dealer told me. However he isn't right now and isn't the horse I tried and if we can't return him I am not sure what I am going to do. I know intellectually what I can do; ie turn him away and see how he does, agree a level of of investigations with the vet, look at retirement livery etc but emotionally the situation is doing me in. I'm not sleeping and feeling very guilty for having placed this additional financial burden on the family finances when I can't ride him. Sorry for the moan

This sounds like such a difficult situation and I'm really sorry for you.

It's possible the old owners, however lovely, didn't recognise signs of mild lameness (this is something that comes up a lot on this forum and online), which have been worsened by being pushed hard in not the best tack at the dealers. Do they have any recent videos of the horse in canter you could show to your vet?
 

Highmileagecob

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Oh what a difficult situation! A vetting is only valid for the condition of the horse on the day of the vetting. No history would be taken into account unless specifically mentioned. I do tend to lean towards a few of the earlier posts that mention stress as a possible trigger. Has he ever been laminitic? Is there any chance of asking his old owners to visit and see if they agree that he is lame? As above, some mild lameness is not always recognised.
 

Melody Grey

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How long after the vetting was he transported to your yard? Who transported him? I would be suspicious that there was an accident after the vetting, prior to him arriving at your yard.

Unfortunately I’ve seen this first hand- horse went under the breast bar during transit fracturing several vertebrae at the withers. Novice buyer decided to keep it (dealer who delivered told them fully). Never really came right for them and they ended up selling on to a dealer ?‍♀️....should’ve gone back!
 

Waxwing

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Hi everyone thank you for your responses; the blood test results came back today and were clear. He was delivered by the dealer the day after the vetting and they didn't raise any concerns. If he had been fine when he arrived and something developed a few months down the line I would have said fair enough but an issue was immediately apparent when he was ridden when we got him home. I attended the vetting and asked a number of questions and was assured there were no concerns and he was felt fit to do what I wanted. When the local vet raised some concerns I contacted the vet who had undertaken the vetting and he did concede the horse had shown some reluctance to pick up canter on one rein but he hadn't noted this as an issue at the time. I also wonder how much he had been worked at the dealer prior to me trying him as he was a lot quieter then, and quieter during the vetting, he has been very forward when ridden since getting him home. My instructor commented from the videos I showed her that he looked relatively quiet, which I was looking for but that is not the case now. We shall what response we get from the dealer
 

stormox

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It seems odd that the first vet missed his problems, could he have fallen in transit and injured himself? Was it a professional transporter you used or did you pick him up?
 

eahotson

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My OH and I have done a lot of talking and agreed that if he can't be returned and isn't going to be rideable and not in pain we will.look into retirement livery options. There is nothing affordable close by but some options a little further away would be doable. This situation is not of his making and I want to do the best I can for him
You are a very nice person.
 

Wishfilly

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Hi everyone thank you for your responses; the blood test results came back today and were clear. He was delivered by the dealer the day after the vetting and they didn't raise any concerns. If he had been fine when he arrived and something developed a few months down the line I would have said fair enough but an issue was immediately apparent when he was ridden when we got him home. I attended the vetting and asked a number of questions and was assured there were no concerns and he was felt fit to do what I wanted. When the local vet raised some concerns I contacted the vet who had undertaken the vetting and he did concede the horse had shown some reluctance to pick up canter on one rein but he hadn't noted this as an issue at the time. I also wonder how much he had been worked at the dealer prior to me trying him as he was a lot quieter then, and quieter during the vetting, he has been very forward when ridden since getting him home. My instructor commented from the videos I showed her that he looked relatively quiet, which I was looking for but that is not the case now. We shall what response we get from the dealer

Was the vet you used for the vetting someone who is known to you? Are they an equine specialist vet?

I think in terms of forwardness it's tricky because a) he's potentially in pain now which will affect his behaviour b) it's likely the dealer had him in regular work at the very least, whereas you probably haven't ridden much due to the suspected issue.

If the lameness wasn't an issue, would he be too forward for you? Because if so, legally, that's potentially another reason to return to the dealer. If it was sold to you as a quiet, confidence giving horse, and is now not that, then he's again "not fit for purpose".

How are you getting on with the dealer?

I think you are within 30 days still? So if it were me I would send one final message, saying you wish to return the horse as he is not fit for purpose (don't get into reasons that can be debated).
 

Waxwing

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Hi

The vet wasn't one know to me as the horse came from a different area but it was a very experienced equine vet. I appreciate he was probably in more regular work with the dealer and if he is pain that will have an impact. Thank you everyone on here for listening; I have had some family members tell me I was stupid to buy him and put myself in this situation, which has not been helpful as I am already doing a very good job of beating myself up and at the end of the day I had him vetted and was told he was ok. If there were currently no soundness concerns the forwardness or otherwise wouldn't be an issue as he would have been a fairly easy horse to sell on as he hacks alone, is bombproof in traffic and is a thoroughly nice horse on the ground
 

Wishfilly

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Hi

The vet wasn't one know to me as the horse came from a different area but it was a very experienced equine vet. I appreciate he was probably in more regular work with the dealer and if he is pain that will have an impact. Thank you everyone on here for listening; I have had some family members tell me I was stupid to buy him and put myself in this situation, which has not been helpful as I am already doing a very good job of beating myself up and at the end of the day I had him vetted and was told he was ok. If there were currently no soundness concerns the forwardness or otherwise wouldn't be an issue as he would have been a fairly easy horse to sell on as he hacks alone, is bombproof in traffic and is a thoroughly nice horse on the ground

I don't think you were stupid to buy him- I'm not sure what else you could have done!

It's relevant in terms of being able to return him.

Given you had a vetting, and the horse did pass, it's possible, legally, that the dealer could make an argument that it happened in your care.

If the horse is unsuitable for another reason, the right of return becomes quite straightforward, I think.

Or have you decided not to go down that route?
 

onemoretime

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Hi

The vet wasn't one know to me as the horse came from a different area but it was a very experienced equine vet. I appreciate he was probably in more regular work with the dealer and if he is pain that will have an impact. Thank you everyone on here for listening; I have had some family members tell me I was stupid to buy him and put myself in this situation, which has not been helpful as I am already doing a very good job of beating myself up and at the end of the day I had him vetted and was told he was ok. If there were currently no soundness concerns the forwardness or otherwise wouldn't be an issue as he would have been a fairly easy horse to sell on as he hacks alone, is bombproof in traffic and is a thoroughly nice horse on the ground

You were not to know that this situation would arise, you tried the horse out had him vetted, there is not a lot more you can do. Please dont beat yourself up.
 

nutjob

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The vet wasn't one know to me as the horse came from a different area but it was a very experienced equine vet. I appreciate he was probably in more regular work with the dealer and if he is pain that will have an impact. Thank you everyone on here for listening; I have had some family members tell me I was stupid to buy him and put myself in this situation, which has not been helpful as I am already doing a very good job of beating myself up and at the end of the day I had him vetted and was told he was ok. If there were currently no soundness concerns the forwardness or otherwise wouldn't be an issue as he would have been a fairly easy horse to sell on as he hacks alone, is bombproof in traffic and is a thoroughly nice horse on the ground

It's not your fault, you've done everything right. Sadly it has now become your problem one way or another. If you cannot return him is there an option to do more investigations and see if he can be fixed rather than go straight to a retirement situation?
 

Gingersmum

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What are your insurance company saying about this situation ?
I know they exclude colic in first few days but surely if the horse was injured during transport or immediately kicked in field they would cover him ?
If you pay out several £k's for a horse and it's yours the minute it's on the transport surely they would pay out ?
I would have though an equine insurance company would have guide lines for this situation ?
 

Wishfilly

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What are your insurance company saying about this situation ?
I know they exclude colic in first few days but surely if the horse was injured during transport or immediately kicked in field they would cover him ?
If you pay out several £k's for a horse and it's yours the minute it's on the transport surely they would pay out ?
I would have though an equine insurance company would have guide lines for this situation ?

I think if it's definitely an accident, they will pay out- but anything else which shows signs within the first 14 days, they won't cover.
 

cariad

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I don't know if this will help. The Consumer Protection Act 2015 says (but in more legal terminology):

"If you discover the fault within the first six months of having the product, it is presumed to have been there since the time you took ownership of it - unless the retailer can prove otherwise"

This is called shifting the burden of proof. Normally, it would be the person buying the product, or in this case, horse, to prove there was a defect/fault which meant that whatever it is could be returned under the Act. Under the Act, if there is a defect/fault discovered within 6 months of purchase, then it is deemed to have been there since purchase/ownership passes, unless the seller can show otherwise that it wasn't. You would probaby have to identify the defect; I'm not sure it would be enough to just say, well there's something wrong and I am saying it was there before or at purchase, so you as the seller have to prove it wasn't, but might still be worth a go, in addition to the 30 days return/refund criteria.

There is also a right of repair, so with horses, if there was a defect/fault that could be put right with a "repair", i.e. some form of treatment, then another option is to try and get the seller to pay to get whatever it is put right. If it can be.

You could put this to your equine solicitor/BHS etc and see what they think of it as an option.
 

Waxwing

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Thank you for the further responses; I will be contacting the dealer over the weekend. When the dealer dropped him off I asked how he had travelled and was told there hadn't been any issues.
 

cariad

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Consumer Protection Act 2015 s19 ss (14) (15). The possible "get out" for the seller is at ss (15)(a)(b):


(15)Subsection (14) does not apply if—
(a)it is established that the goods did conform to the contract on that day, or
(b)its application is incompatible with the nature of the goods or with how they fail to conform to the contract.
 

Ossy2

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I don't know if this will help. The Consumer Protection Act 2015 says (but in more legal terminology):

"If you discover the fault within the first six months of having the product, it is presumed to have been there since the time you took ownership of it - unless the retailer can prove otherwise"

This is called shifting the burden of proof. Normally, it would be the person buying the product, or in this case, horse, to prove there was a defect/fault which meant that whatever it is could be returned under the Act. Under the Act, if there is a defect/fault discovered within 6 months of purchase, then it is deemed to have been there since purchase/ownership passes, unless the seller can show otherwise that it wasn't. You would probaby have to identify the defect; I'm not sure it would be enough to just say, well there's something wrong and I am saying it was there before or at purchase, so you as the seller have to prove it wasn't, but might still be worth a go, in addition to the 30 days return/refund criteria.

There is also a right of repair, so with horses, if there was a defect/fault that could be put right with a "repair", i.e. some form of treatment, then another option is to try and get the seller to pay to get whatever it is put right. If it can be.

You could put this to your equine solicitor/BHS etc and see what they think of it as an option.

With The fact the horse passed a 5 stage vetting and bloods are clear, the retailer could argue that this does indeed “prove otherwise”
also the buyer now needs to prove they didn’t cause the defect ie returning a jumper as defected when in actual fact the buyer has ripped it themselves. If an equine solicitor is not confident there is a claim to be had here with the seller I think we need to respect their professional judgement. Would I still try put a bit of pressure on the dealer, yes absolutely. Would I also be putting some pressure on the vet who did the vetting, yes absolutely.
Annoying if you’d bought this horse unseen and unvetted you’d have more rights for return.
Good luck you sound like a lovely caring owner, well done for trying to do the best by him.
 

SO1

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I would not necessarily believe everything the past owner said. Could the horse have been injected with steroids that have now worn off?

Vettings are tricky because the vet will not know the normal behaviour and temperament of the horse.

Horse is not lame, behaves well under the saddle at vetting. The reluctance to canter on one rein was probably subtle enough that it would not be picked up by yourself as an issue and that although vet saw it didn't feel it was the start of something else.

I am not sure how your local vet could confirm without knowing what the problem is if it was preexisting or as a result of an accident that happened after the vetting. All they have been able to do is pinpoint some potential areas. Could the horse have got cast in the stable or had a fall?

I would not retire immediately as it could be something that is either fixable or could be medicated.

A good vet should have some idea why a horse is lame and can start investigating what the most likely problem is for example arthritis, soft tissue injury etc.

I know people who have horses with all sorts of quite severe back and neck problems that have been salvageable. One with neck arthritis which cannot do dressage but can do low level schooling, hacking and jumping medicated with steroids. Another with kissing spines that was operated on and now do everything again, another with back problems and arthritis, and had several soft tissue injuries and navicular medicated and can do hacking and light school work. I think it depends on what you want to spend to investigate the issue.

You could be retiring a horse that doesn't need to retire. I presume you have no funds for another horse to ride if you retire this one.
 
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