Advice please

ThreeFurs

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As other posters have said, though without my Aussie twang, its a good idea to 'paper your arse'. ie Keep everything, date everything, file everything, and jot down conversations before you forget them. A useful process I learned in civil service. Its sounds like you already are though.

Its rare that a dodgy horse sale gets to the High Court. This one did, and it was messy and expensive. I happen to recall it as the claimant was vaguely known to me. https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/dre...udge-in-dressage-horse-vetting-wrangle-257025
 

rextherobber

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In the meantime, you could get a good Physio to look at the horse. One of mine presented very like this, she's been messing about in the field, slipped, and literally did the splits with her front legs. Saw it happen, luckily, or we wouldn't have had a clue what had happened. We'd only had her a few weeks too. She seemed fine after the event, we trotted her up etc, it only presented as an issue under saddle the following day. It needed a lot of treatment, which was expensive as the vet had to come and sedate before treatments ( because of the intensity of the treatment, not because the horse was difficult) Eventually cost a couple of thousand (insurance paid, as was an accident). She recovered well, we still have her, it's never been a problem again. Good luck with yours.
 

Lois Lame

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Highmileagecob

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How are things? Is the horse going any better?
I'm not sure if this is any help at all, but all vet students have it drummed into them that 'common things commonly occur.' Common causes of slight lameness include mild laminitis, simmering hoof abscess, thrush, bruised sole and probably a few more that you can think of. Any one of those can flare up suddenly and would produce the symptoms you are seeing. I suppose it is a guessing game as to the recovery time though.
 

Lois Lame

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I hope to gosh it's something simple and you get back the horse you tried, OP.

How are things? Is the horse going any better?
I'm not sure if this is any help at all, but all vet students have it drummed into them that 'common things commonly occur.' Common causes of slight lameness include mild laminitis, simmering hoof abscess, thrush, bruised sole and probably a few more that you can think of. Any one of those can flare up suddenly and would produce the symptoms you are seeing. I suppose it is a guessing game as to the recovery time though.
 

Birker2020

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https://www.tozers.co.uk/insights/new-rights-for-horse-buyers#:~:text=Even after 6 months from,misrepresentation and/or claim damages.
The much more useful right to reject on the basis of defects established within 6 months – forcing the seller to prove the horse was sound/sane etc. at the time of sale – is unchanged.

Even after 6 months from the date of purchase, the buyer still has a common law right to reject the horse and claim damages or to rescind the contract for misrepresentation and/or claim damages. These rights last for up to 6 years and again are unaffected by the CRA and offer alternative remedies to the buyer, just as before.
 

Fred66

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https://www.tozers.co.uk/insights/new-rights-for-horse-buyers#:~:text=Even after 6 months from,misrepresentation and/or claim damages.
The much more useful right to reject on the basis of defects established within 6 months – forcing the seller to prove the horse was sound/sane etc. at the time of sale – is unchanged.

Even after 6 months from the date of purchase, the buyer still has a common law right to reject the horse and claim damages or to rescind the contract for misrepresentation and/or claim damages. These rights last for up to 6 years and again are unaffected by the CRA and offer alternative remedies to the buyer, just as before.
That’s a defect at time of sale not a defect that occurred once it was in the buyers possession.

The original vetting would indicate that the defect was not present at time of sale, hence why it is likely to come down to whether OP’s current vet is able to provide evidence that the defect was not present at time of sale. Also a third party vet is likely to be needed to give an impartial view. It will also depend on whether it was a private sale or not. Also on the link you provided having a pre purchase examination and still buying indicates that the buyer is satisfied that the horse is fit for their purpose.

I do sympathize with OP but equally it doesn’t sound as though the seller did anything wrong either.
 

Flyermc

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Would the previous owner be happy to disclose the horses previous medical record? and my other comment would be, if you can not return the horse because its broken, under the sales of goods act, just return it for a different reason. Check the horse matches the correct height, age that its advertised at etc etc anything that doesnt completely match the advert.
 

Waxwing

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Hi everyone thank you for your replies; the letter has been sent to the dealer so we shall see what response we get. As well has the issues identified by our local vet I have also included the fact the actual height of the horse is different to as advertise. Thank you everyone for the different viewpoints; we shall see what happens next. I have arranged for a chiropractor who is also a qualified vet to see him in June, if he is still here. From the information I have given he feels the issue is likely to be related to either the sacroiliac or pelvis; at this stage this is obviously just a possible view point as he hasn't seen the horse. I appreciate the dealer may not have done anything wrong, but the fact remains the horse presented with issues as soon has he arrived. I didn't expect with a new horse to have only ridden it twice; to have had the vet out within the first few days, to be booking chiropractors and exploring retirement livery options if his issues cannot resolved and I cannot return him to the dealers!
 

Birker2020

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I didn't expect with a new horse to have only ridden it twice; to have had the vet out within the first few days, to be booking chiropractors and exploring retirement livery options if his issues cannot resolved and I cannot return him to the dealers!
Its heart breaking, I totally get where you are coming from.

As you know with mine, I'm going through hell. I'm really split between bloodbank, retirement livery and further investigation and paying for schooling livery (I can do this on my yard) and getting back on but as you know I'm 32 months down the line so have no recourse. I keep thinking 'what a waste of a horse' and maybe if we got him going again and I got fitter/slimmer I could get back on and maintain him if we sorted out his pain issues.

I should have got the bloods done but I kept thinking he was going to come sound. I wrote to my horses previous owner but she didn't want to know about refunding but it was a private sale. She was keen to know what was wrong with him but I'm guessing she had a pretty good idea already.

I thought about getting a chiropractor myself, someone that really knows their stuff. It will be interesting to see if they can find anything with your horse, if like you say, he is still with you.

I hope you get some answers and I hope that the letter to the dealer helps, if they have anything about them they should recompense, especially as the height of the horse has come into dispute.
 

Parrotperson

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Hi everyone thank you for your replies; the letter has been sent to the dealer so we shall see what response we get. As well has the issues identified by our local vet I have also included the fact the actual height of the horse is different to as advertise. Thank you everyone for the different viewpoints; we shall see what happens next. I have arranged for a chiropractor who is also a qualified vet to see him in June, if he is still here. From the information I have given he feels the issue is likely to be related to either the sacroiliac or pelvis; at this stage this is obviously just a possible view point as he hasn't seen the horse. I appreciate the dealer may not have done anything wrong, but the fact remains the horse presented with issues as soon has he arrived. I didn't expect with a new horse to have only ridden it twice; to have had the vet out within the first few days, to be booking chiropractors and exploring retirement livery options if his issues cannot resolved and I cannot return him to the dealers!

the vet who did the vetting surely measured him no? How different is he to the advertised height? (just out of nosiness really although I have to say I'm not particularly impressed with the vetting vet)
 

Squeak

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Hi everyone thank you for your replies; the letter has been sent to the dealer so we shall see what response we get. As well has the issues identified by our local vet I have also included the fact the actual height of the horse is different to as advertise. Thank you everyone for the different viewpoints; we shall see what happens next. I have arranged for a chiropractor who is also a qualified vet to see him in June, if he is still here. From the information I have given he feels the issue is likely to be related to either the sacroiliac or pelvis; at this stage this is obviously just a possible view point as he hasn't seen the horse. I appreciate the dealer may not have done anything wrong, but the fact remains the horse presented with issues as soon has he arrived. I didn't expect with a new horse to have only ridden it twice; to have had the vet out within the first few days, to be booking chiropractors and exploring retirement livery options if his issues cannot resolved and I cannot return him to the dealers!

Did you check with your insurance company whether they would pay out for an accident that had happened in the first two weeks? It makes sense that they wouldn't pay out for a pre-existing condition but you'd have hoped they might pay for an accident.

If they would, could it make it that you can do some further vet investigations with the outcome being that either it was an accident since you owned him, in which case the insurance pay or it was something on going and the dealer would have to have him back?

Eta - probably not particularly helpful but thought I'd mention it just in case.
 

Flyermc

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Hi everyone thank you for your replies; the letter has been sent to the dealer so we shall see what response we get. As well has the issues identified by our local vet I have also included the fact the actual height of the horse is different to as advertise. Thank you everyone for the different viewpoints; we shall see what happens next. I have arranged for a chiropractor who is also a qualified vet to see him in June, if he is still here. From the information I have given he feels the issue is likely to be related to either the sacroiliac or pelvis; at this stage this is obviously just a possible view point as he hasn't seen the horse. I appreciate the dealer may not have done anything wrong, but the fact remains the horse presented with issues as soon has he arrived. I didn't expect with a new horse to have only ridden it twice; to have had the vet out within the first few days, to be booking chiropractors and exploring retirement livery options if his issues cannot resolved and I cannot return him to the dealers!

Im fairly certain there was a case, perhaps an H&H article about a horse being returned to a dealer as it was taller (not by much) than the dealer stated in there advert. Im sure the horse got returned and i think the height of the trailer the purchaser had was mentioned? It might be worth a search?
 

Melody Grey

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I have never had a horse measured at a vetting. Even when there is a height requirement, I.e 14.2hh or under for pony classes, vets don’t measure- there was a recent mis-selling case on here where this was discussed at length.
 

Irish-Only

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Did the vet take bloods at the vetting? If so they need to be run in case the horse was on bute.

I'm sorry this has happened to you. Horse buying us so stressful

This. Oh sorry, you've had the bloods back.
 
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onemoretime

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Would the previous owner be happy to disclose the horses previous medical record? and my other comment would be, if you can not return the horse because its broken, under the sales of goods act, just return it for a different reason. Check the horse matches the correct height, age that its advertised at etc etc anything that doesnt completely match the advert.

The horse is considerable bigger than advertised.
 

onemoretime

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Its heart breaking, I totally get where you are coming from.

As you know with mine, I'm going through hell. I'm really split between bloodbank, retirement livery and further investigation and paying for schooling livery (I can do this on my yard) and getting back on but as you know I'm 32 months down the line so have no recourse. I keep thinking 'what a waste of a horse' and maybe if we got him going again and I got fitter/slimmer I could get back on and maintain him if we sorted out his pain issues.

I should have got the bloods done but I kept thinking he was going to come sound. I wrote to my horses previous owner but she didn't want to know about refunding but it was a private sale. She was keen to know what was wrong with him but I'm guessing she had a pretty good idea already.

I thought about getting a chiropractor myself, someone that really knows their stuff. It will be interesting to see if they can find anything with your horse, if like you say, he is still with you.

I hope you get some answers and I hope that the letter to the dealer helps, if they have anything about them they should recompense, especially as the height of the horse has come into dispute.

Birker have you looked at Tom Beech he comes highly recommended as a chiro.
 

onemoretime

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Im fairly certain there was a case, perhaps an H&H article about a horse being returned to a dealer as it was taller (not by much) than the dealer stated in there advert. Im sure the horse got returned and i think the height of the trailer the purchaser had was mentioned? It might be worth a search?

Yes I remember that case.
 

onemoretime

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I have never had a horse measured at a vetting. Even when there is a height requirement, I.e 14.2hh or under for pony classes, vets don’t measure- there was a recent mis-selling case on here where this was discussed at length.

I alays take my measuring stick with me and also a pair of trimmers to make sure the horse is happy to be clipped as they say.
 

Waxwing

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Thank you for everyone for your responses; they have been really helpful; I have been reading up on possible causes of the horses presentation and an issue with the sacroiliac looks very likely. I am particularly annoyed as there was one specific issue that my instructor picked up that I shared with the vet undertaking the vetting; that combined with something the vet subsequently told me he spotted during the vetting, but didn't share at the time, should in my mind have indicated this was a possibility. The issue my instructor spotted wouldn't in isolation have necessarily been a concern but I made it very clear when I booked the vetting that this was something I specifically asked they check to ensure there wasn't any underlying physical cause that the issue could be attributed to. Do I have a right to complain about the vetting.
 

SEL

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@Waxwing I know this isn't particularly ethical but having seen a very strong "correct" rider present a horse beautifully - even though I knew the horse wasn't 100% - I wonder if throwing a pro on board would perhaps answer your question as to why it went downhill so suddenly.

By the end of a week with this particular rider on board you could have easily sold the horse as sound. It was later PTS with KS & hock arthritis amongst other stuff.
 

Lady Tinseltime

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Thank you for everyone for your responses; they have been really helpful; I have been reading up on possible causes of the horses presentation and an issue with the sacroiliac looks very likely. I am particularly annoyed as there was one specific issue that my instructor picked up that I shared with the vet undertaking the vetting; that combined with something the vet subsequently told me he spotted during the vetting, but didn't share at the time, should in my mind have indicated this was a possibility. The issue my instructor spotted wouldn't in isolation have necessarily been a concern but I made it very clear when I booked the vetting that this was something I specifically asked they check to ensure there wasn't any underlying physical cause that the issue could be attributed to. Do I have a right to complain about the vetting.
I would think that if he spotted something and did not share it with you at the time he surely must take respnsibility
 

Waxwing

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Well there has been no response from the dealer either to the letter and follow up emails. The dealer may feel they have no case to answer and the only feedback I can find about them online is positive; but I don't feel it reflects well on them that I have been entirely ignored . I am not sleeping well and being very tearful at times. I'm getting lots of different advice about how to proceed. I have a few different options I will.be exploring over the next couple of weeks. Ultimately I am going to do what works best for me (and obviously the horse!) ; I accept that I have probably lost the purchase money. Our other horse is now up for sale (if anyone is interested in a well schooled young ISH please let me know!). My daughter is very angry that we currently own two horses; neither of which she can do much with; she has some mental health issues and the current situation isn't helping!. The new horse was bought to be something she could ride this summer but this hasn't worked out. Apologies for the moan it just feels a bit of mess at the moment. Once our younger horse is sold and arrangements made for the new ones I will either look for a something for my daughter to have on loan or we will take a six month break and save up to get something new; if we aren't paying for livery we can save up relatively quickly.
.
 

Bikerchickone

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Sorry you're going through this. Have you had back X rays done? They're not hugely expensive (around £350 all in with Visit and exam fee etc) and it would help answer the question about whether there is something more sinister going on. That said, it isn't ideal, but if you can find out what's causing the problem maybe it can be resolved and your daughter would still have the nice horse you thought you'd bought to ride, eventually. You never know, X rays might just rule out anything sinister and then a good physio/osteo could resolve the issues relatively easily.

Sad to say a lot of dealers won't respond to a problem and although I'd agree you have rights, often it just isn't possible to enforce them. Not fair at all, sadly.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
 

misst

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This is so sad for you and your daughter. No useful advice but am so sorry to know what you are both going through. Maybe someone can loan you something that will see your daughter through this summer while you come to a decision for your new boy x
 
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