Dressage AES now actively using PRE's to improve WB breeding and rideability.

[tristar]

The best crosses seem to be with older breeds that have a foundation of Spanish blood in the ancestry (interestingly this includes the TB, which started in the late 17c with Barb & Turkish stallions on "the King's mares", which were largely Spanish. Both the Connemara and Welsh have had large infusions of Spanish genes, also the Friesian, in the case of Connemaras from medieval times (DNA research).

and the id? they can be very loose moving

 

[Cortez]

and the id? they can be very loose moving

The Irish Draught isn't really a draught horse though, it's defined as a light draught horse and used in the same way that warmbloods were developed out of carriage horses rather than plow horses. Also has a whack of Spanish DNA, interestingly.

ETA Many years ago (25+) when I was involved with Irish horse development boards I suggested using some PRE blood to reestablish "type" in the Irish Draught. Breeders were aware that this was being lost, and as the only traditional cross was with TB they were at a bit of a loss. Since none of them had ever heard of a PRE (then called Andalusian) they didn't go along with my idea. If anybody recalls the old type of ID they would perhaps see where I was coming from. Sadly you won't find this old style of horse in Ireland now.

Further ETA - I don't have anything to do with Irish breeding now

 

[tristar]

the one element about wb x anything is that the warmblood is not a fixed and purebred in the way that pre x tb x arab is and the progeny not as predictable.

one thing about using the better bred purer races is not picking up undesirable traits such the ``worst traits`` and the product is usually very predictable

 

[DabDab]

Well all breeding is luck really! My PRE x TB does have the best of both worlds, she has brilliant extensions from the TB side but also brilliant sit from the PRE side. Her let down is her brain really, although I'm sure with a better rider she would be FEI by now ?

I'm sure it is possible, but don't think it is an easy thing to achieve. Otherwise all the WB breeders would be doing it . I've always assumed that at higher levels it is easier to ride/train/achieve higher marks on a natural extender who you need to train to sit than the other way around, hence why WB dressage breeding has generally gone in the direction of breeding natural extenders rather than the baroque, collection strong stamp of horse.

 

[tristar]

The Irish Draught isn't really a draught horse though, it's defined as a light draught horse and used in the same way that warmbloods were developed out of carriage horses rather than plow horses. Also has a whack of Spanish DNA, interestingly.

some of the early warmbloods were bred by farmers using working farm plough horses though, especially i holland i remember seeing donkeys and horses ploughing in ireland

a lot of id mares i looked at at one time, even recently, have had one unknown grandparent and might bring a surprise to the table so did not go there

 

[tristar]

The Irish Draught isn't really a draught horse though, it's defined as a light draught horse and used in the same way that warmbloods were developed out of carriage horses rather than plow horses. Also has a whack of Spanish DNA, interestingly.

ETA Many years ago (25+) when I was involved with Irish horse development boards I suggested using some PRE blood to reestablish "type" in the Irish Draught. Breeders were aware that this was being lost, and as the only traditional cross was with TB they were at a bit of a loss. Since none of them had ever heard of a PRE (then called Andalusian) they didn't go along with my idea. If anybody recalls the old type of ID they would perhaps see where I was coming from. Sadly you won't find this old style of horse in Ireland now.

Further ETA - I don't have anything to do with Irish breeding now

enter the irish sport horse

 

[Cortez]

some of the early warmbloods were bred by farmers using working farm plough horses though, especially i holland i remember seeing donkeys and horses ploughing in ireland

a lot of id mares i looked at at one time, even recently, have had one unknown grandparent and might bring a surprise to the table so did not go there

I don't want to derail the thread into my special area of interest, but....the Dutch got a huge number of ID mares from Ireland in the late 40's and 50's when tractors began replacing horse power on the land and we exported most of the working horses to Holland (for meat, largely, but the breeders used to meet the ferries at the docks and take the better horses, including Ladykiller, who for some reason managed to find himself on the boat!). As told to me by a Dutch breeder.

"enter the irish sport horse"

The ISH was always produced, formerly known as the Irish Hunter.

 

[tristar]

irish sport horse stud book was what i referring to, some examples of which in the early days were not too pretty

but the irish have always bred hunters which were lovely types i saw loads 40 years ago by king of diamonds, middle temple, and arctic que, etc, x tb`s they were refined types perfected over a long period and sport horses, many i saw by cloverhill etc, the warmblood cross id sport horses are more recent and not as appealing in conformation, well i suppose its improving now.

masserella in leicestershire imported decent id`s which had the true heavy stamp of the older bloodlines, and more recently some swedish people bought two dublin horse show champion mares and they were much finer and smaller

ladykiller was a tb

 

[shortstuff99]

I'm sure it is possible, but don't think it is an easy thing to achieve. Otherwise all the WB breeders would be doing it . I've always assumed that at higher levels it is easier to ride/train/achieve higher marks on a natural extender who you need to train to sit than the other way around, hence why WB dressage breeding has generally gone in the direction of breeding natural extenders rather than the baroque, collection strong stamp of horse.

It's easier to win young horse classes on a big mover, much harder to train Grand Prix.

 

[shortstuff99]

Thanks for pointing out the elephant in the room. I agree.

The training and the now prevalence of hypermobility in the big movers have a big impact.

 

[Mule]

The Irish Draught isn't really a draught horse though, it's defined as a light draught horse and used in the same way that warmbloods were developed out of carriage horses rather than plow horses. Also has a whack of Spanish DNA, interestingly.

ETA Many years ago (25+) when I was involved with Irish horse development boards I suggested using some PRE blood to reestablish "type" in the Irish Draught. Breeders were aware that this was being lost, and as the only traditional cross was with TB they were at a bit of a loss. Since none of them had ever heard of a PRE (then called Andalusian) they didn't go along with my idea. If anybody recalls the old type of ID they would perhaps see where I was coming from. Sadly you won't find this old style of horse in Ireland now.

Further ETA - I don't have anything to do with Irish breeding now

The strong ones with a big jump that stayed sound forever

 

[Orangehorse]

I was told that the Friesian breed, basically a driving horse, had introduced Saddlebreds to make them more into a riding horse.

Saddlebred - upheaded, knee action and trainability.

 

[j1ffy]

I know nothing about breeding or studbooks, but I hate the strapline "Manageable Men" on the link within the article!

 

[Cortez]

ladykiller was a tb

Yes, I know. Rejected here in Ireland because he definitely wasn't a racing type.....

 

[tristar]

Yes, I know. Rejected here in Ireland View attachment 67008 because he definitely wasn't a racing type.....

nice to see a pic

 

[tallyho!]

Yes, I know. Rejected here in Ireland View attachment 67008 because he definitely wasn't a racing type.....

Now there’s a tb I WOULD buy.
If tb’s had this build of old... I very much doubt the wb would have taken over dressage.
Very interesting. Look at that Iberian shoulder. I’m about to go dust off a few old racing books...
the low set neck/upright/angular hind for thrust in tbs which excelled for speed has really put the nail in the coffin for tbs in dressage but this gives me hope. Never seen this photo before despite having a family who love racing...

 

[Palindrome]

As we are doing picture, this is an oldenburg stallion from the XVIIeth century :

I am not a purist on breeds, I think it's best to use good individuals that have proven they can handle the work instead of injured horses who couldn't do the work but have good papers.

People like to consider rare breeds like rare species ("rarer than a panda"), but it's only a breed, it's heavily influenced by fashion and whatever we need and like at one given time.

 

[hollyandivy123]

As we are doing picture, this is an oldenburg stallion from the XVIIeth century :

I am not a purist on breeds, I think it's best to use good individuals that have proven they can handle the work instead of injured horses who couldn't do the work but have good papers.

People like to consider rare breeds like rare species ("rarer than a panda"), but it's only a breed, it's heavily influenced by fashion and whatever we need and like at one given time.

now are we talking an incredibly small horse or is this a very very large man...........?

 

[Roxylola]

One good thing, regardless of how suitable the cross is, this hopefully shows a move away from breeding bigger and bigger horses - everything now seems to be giraffe sized. Any adverts for sportshorse youngstock seem to all be will definitely make 16.2 plus. I've been dubious for a long time about the excessive height we are breeding. Iberians tend to be a little smaller and compact (with a bit more bone) than warmbloods at the moment.
Now to wait for the examples of 15hh warmbloods with bone and 17hh iberians ?

 

[hollyandivy123]

One good thing, regardless of how suitable the cross is, this hopefully shows a move away from breeding bigger and bigger horses - everything now seems to be giraffe sized. Any adverts for sportshorse youngstock seem to all be will definitely make 16.2 plus. I've been dubious for a long time about the excessive height we are breeding. Iberians tend to be a little smaller and compact (with a bit more bone) than warmbloods at the moment.
Now to wait for the examples of 15hh warmbloods with bone and 17hh iberians ?

http://www.rhfpre.com/escalera-cen/

stand to be corrected on breeding, but this came up in a google search..............

 

[CanteringCarrot]

There are actually a lot of taller Iberians on the market now. So I think many breeders of Iberians have moved in that direction too.

I prefer a size of about 15.2 with good bone, personally. That size seems to be the most functional and sound for me.

 

[Roxylola]

I knew it wouldn't take long.
I'm a fan of the same CC but they seem to be a rare thing these days

 

[oldie48]

There are 2 PREs and a lusitano on Rose's yard ATM. One of the PRE's was a stallion until a year ago, he's huge and tbh his conformation leaves a lot to be desired, the other is a stallion and again is over 16hh. The lusi is more the size I'd expect but is quite fine. I'm really having to revise what I think they should look like.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

As a side note, on the ANCCE/LG PRE App there is all sorts of info you can look up. Such as conformation traits and whatnot. I got sucked into that wormhole for awhile once ? My gelding is a decent type, but it is best that he's a gelding. ?

 

[Cortez]

Unfortunately there are now many, many PRE's over 16.2hh and it's getting hard to find the traditional type. The last time I was over looking I was proudly shown so many huge 3 year olds that looked more and more like warmbloods. The breeders tell me that they are breeding what the market wants.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I just looked at an ad for a rising 3 year old. I liked his type, but he was already 15.2...which is what I would like the finished height to be. Maybe he wouldn't grow much taller, but I'm not so sure. Just seemed big to me.

 

[Cortez]

I just looked at an ad for a rising 3 year old. I liked his type, but he was already 15.2...which is what I would like the finished height to be. Maybe he wouldn't grow much taller, but I'm not so sure. Just seemed big to me.

You have to look long and hard to find the traditional type of Spanish horse. I spent a week looking at horses that were wrong for what I wanted, until I met a man in a bar and he took me to his cousin's, where he had the most perfect horse, kept in his garage. 15.2, deep and round in the body, moved like a king, heart like a lion. He hadn't bothered to register it as a PRE, and it was so cheap I didn't even bother haggling

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I get around ok (for the most part) on my little compact model...he does not have the heart of a lion though...more like a field mouse or other skittish creature ?


Sometimes I do think about a Spanish Norman for my tall OH. Never met one though Just seems like a solid horse for pottering about (he only hacks) but most of the ones on Google seem to just look like a Spanish horse or a very fat Spanish horse to me.

 

[oldie48]

A friend's reg PRE is well over 16hh but has been diagnosed with a muscle myopathy which sadly makes him unrideable. She bought him from a friend (or perhaps not) as a two year old and it was apparent then that he had a very strange action behind. She thought for a long time that when he strengthened up and was in work that he'd improve but sadly it got worse. Seems there are lots of different myopathies apart from PSSM, don't know if this is common in PREs?

 

[shortstuff99]

My PRE fusion is 15.3 (by Lengueto) and my new filly will probably make about 15.2hh (she's about 14.3 at 3). I purposely went for the smaller ones as I'm short!

There is a breeder in the UK (Aztec stud) who has Spanish Norman's and they are really nice!

The PRE cross can make very nice sport/riding horses.