All not quite as hoped...

Hi Twiggy, quote function messed up, the dogs in question I have known from birth, one is just a lazy git who doesn't want to do anything that might require any effort, the other I first saw throwing a tantrum at 7 weeks because he was getting a cuddle on someone's knee and the person had things to do and put him down again. Similarly, when he was tiny, if he was biting or chewing something likely to lead to his imminent demise and you lifted him away from it = screaming fit.
So no, not fear, just general knobbiness in my case.

Even if it was fear, the dogs here have to face fear/unpleasantness, go through it and come out the other side unscathed, same as I have to!! I personally cannot keep my dogs in a cocoon, within reason.

ETA if Mrs M's dog is motivated by fear and fear comes from others being on or near the sofa and being told to leave the sofa, then she should definitely be off the sofa.

The dog is being expected to live in a busy, multidog family, it may be very scary for her indeed, but again, even fear based, if she is going to kick off every time she is scared of something and is pandered to (everyone backs off), then IMO this will not help her own mental state and she will end up ruling the roost, but will she be happy?

For me she would need conservative management to make her more happy and secure in the long run.
 
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Hopping in again.

I didn't realise it was a growl. It was definitely more of a sort of grumbling sound, which combined with her being on her back made me think it was like the Rotties purr. Had it been a, in my ears, definite growl then she would've got hoiked straight off.

If the Rotties stiffen is only when stood up and I know straightaway that they're on alert.

It's obvious that despite many dogs over the years, including little rescue Shih Tzus, I have a lot to learn about terriers!

Until I feel she's acknowledged and accepted that I'm the boss, and that the other dogs have the right to come to me, then there'll be no sofa or my bed time. It will be an interesting challenge. I'll look into what training is around as she's a bright thing and it would be good to get her mind occupied.
 
Squee said:
I must say this thread is making me feel quite apprehensive about little Colin arriving ??
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No need lass! If I'd had this one from new pup or she'd had a different life to date then it would probably be a different story.

You'll train and have consistent boundaries and all will be grand.
 
Lev, there’s no need to worry. The terrier I had was pretty easy compared to some that I hear about on here. I had him from a pup and though he would try it on it wasn’t a long time habit to break. You’ll be fine and if you’re not, well, we’ll enjoy the stories on here!;):p
 
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CorvusCorax said:
Stiffening generally means someone is going to get bitten.
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I suppose there is a difference between stiffening, and freezing. I've seen dogs go rigid, freeze, and not dare to move a muscle, sort of, in case one more move from them makes the world explode around them, type of way.

And then there is those who goes rigid, stiff, preparing themselves to have a go at someone.

Difficult for me to describe with words the nuances of what I mean further than that.
 
Blanche said:
Lev, there’s no need to worry. The terrier I had was pretty easy compared to some that I hear about on here. I had him from a pup and though he would try it on it wasn’t a long time habit to break. You’ll be fine and if you’re not, well, we’ll enjoy the stories on here!;):p
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It’s not the pup. It’s the older terrier who has got his paws firmly under the table who Lev is quite rightly concerned about. It will need very careful managing.
 
I've been out for most of the day.

D says wee one has been grumping at the others when they've walked past. This is how she was when she first arrived but she's been grand since then until yesterday evening.

On the good side, she's not actually tried to get on the sofa even when I got home, just onto the long footstool thing, but she got off on first command. She wouldn't come out of her crate when I called, just lay on her back, so on went the slip lead and out she came. I meant to pick up a house lead and got completely sidetracked by work. I'll make one and she can wear it during the day for a while.
 
MrsMozart said:
I've been out for most of the day.

D says wee one has been grumping at the others when they've walked past. This is how she was when she first arrived but she's been grand since then until yesterday evening.

On the good side, she's not actually tried to get on the sofa even when I got home, just onto the long footstool thing, but she got off on first command. She wouldn't come out of her crate when I called, just lay on her back, so on went the slip lead and out she came. I meant to pick up a house lead and got completely sidetracked by work. I'll make one and she can wear it during the day for a while.
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Did she spend the day on her own with you when you went to Loch Leven (or wherever)? Or is it just that she sat on the front seat while the others were in the back? either way, I wouldn't single her out in that way again, it has made her outgrow her boots.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Did she spend the day on her own with you when you went to Loch Leven (or wherever)? Or is it just that she sat on the front seat while the others were in the back? either way, I wouldn't single her out in that way again, it has made her outgrow her boots.
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It was just her and me. I do it with all of them, either one on its own or two together, but won't be doing it again with her. Want to keep up with the others as we all enjoy it.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Hi Twiggy, quote function messed up, the dogs in question I have known from birth, one is just a lazy git who doesn't want to do anything that might require any effort, the other I first saw throwing a tantrum at 7 weeks because he was getting a cuddle on someone's knee and the person had things to do and put him down again. Similarly, when he was tiny, if he was biting or chewing something likely to lead to his imminent demise and you lifted him away from it = screaming fit.
So no, not fear, just general knobbiness in my case.

Even if it was fear, the dogs here have to face fear/unpleasantness, go through it and come out the other side unscathed, same as I have to!! I personally cannot keep my dogs in a cocoon, within reason.

ETA if Mrs M's dog is motivated by fear and fear comes from others being on or near the sofa and being told to leave the sofa, then she should definitely be off the sofa.

The dog is being expected to live in a busy, multidog family, it may be very scary for her indeed, but again, even fear based, if she is going to kick off every time she is scared of something and is pandered to (everyone backs off), then IMO this will not help her own mental state and she will end up ruling the roost, but will she be happy?

For me she would need conservative management to make her more happy and secure in the long run.
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I agree completely that the dogs have to learn to cope with a level of fear, all ours have to with certain things they have to learn cars, quads etc are not scary, they have to enter and cross water etc.
I also whole hearted agree of the dog has an issue behaving when on a lap or the furniture it should not be allowed on it, it's does not matter to me what drives the behaviour.
If a dog has frozen though I would not pop a slip lead on the dog or remove it with my hands as I feel the risk of pushing fear over to the point of causing a bite is real. I think you agree on that though?
 
She's probably just a feisty pup. I'd just keep sensible boundries. No need to get heavy handed. It's quite possibly a mix of fear and terrier temper.
Some dogs are more cut out to be the only dog in a household though. Not saying this is the case but some definitely are happier being the only dog.
 
twiggy2 said:
I agree completely that the dogs have to learn to cope with a level of fear, all ours have to with certain things they have to learn cars, quads etc are not scary, they have to enter and cross water etc.
I also whole hearted agree of the dog has an issue behaving when on a lap or the furniture it should not be allowed on it, it's does not matter to me what drives the behaviour.
If a dog has frozen though I would not pop a slip lead on the dog or remove it with my hands as I feel the risk of pushing fear over to the point of causing a bite is real. I think you agree on that though?
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As FL correctly pointed out, there's a big difference between freezing and stiffening.
If the latter I would just get the hell out of dodge and maybe just use a yard brush or the sofa as a barricade because I have quite enough puncture wounds already ?

In seriousness, if I could get a slip lead on safely I would and I would definitely keep hands out of the way.
One of the trainers I worked with was adept with a slip lead lol and rescued me several times.

Backing down from a dog that's saying Imma Bite You if he or she doesn't like something is the natural thing to do, but it's also a win for the dog in their own head and you make a rod for your own back sometimes.

Letting the dog relax and settle before removing it is ideal but that could not have happened with other dogs milling about in the zone, we're all just dealing with how we'd react in that exact situation Mrs M was in and that's difficult as we weren't there and we can't see the behaviours.
 
Have just read the first post- if you read if back she is giving you so many signs she is not comfortable with the situation - on her back, rigid - in that situation rather than saying 'no' and trying to 'control' her you would actually be better either removing her if safe to do so to a quiet space - or change the situation. A lot of people think they need to 'challenge' behaviours but all that will do is escalate it like happened in your original post. I'd probably have got up, moved her or called her to do something different to diffuse her tension. This isn't her 'winning' its just removing a problem.
 
Hm. Freezing v. stiffening. Good question.

The first time she did it was in the car. No growl or grumble. She'd been told 'No' and she didn't like it - her body was so stiff I thought she was dead! If she'd not relaxed and then been perfectly fine I'd have taken her staight to the vets.

Yesterday evening she was still comparatively soft, but definitely more along the frozen side rather than the stiffening. The Rotties will stiffen, even the GSD will, if there's A Thing out there that needs a Good Staring at, but the rest of the time they're mush.

Part of my thinking 'frozen' and therefore me not backing off (she still has to do what she's meant to be doing), but being softer about enforcing it, is because of her history - whilst she's certainly been the little princess she's also seen a stronger approach.

I wondered about the 'only dog' angle. She's always had other bigger than her dogs around and she's been fine, hence thinking all would be well here. We are her fifth home though. And she's had a litter that resulted in an emergency c-section at ten months' old.
 
SusieT said:
Have just read the first post- if you read if back she is giving you so many signs she is not comfortable with the situation - on her back, rigid - in that situation rather than saying 'no' and trying to 'control' her you would actually be better either removing her if safe to do so to a quiet space - or change the situation. A lot of people think they need to 'challenge' behaviours but all that will do is escalate it like happened in your original post. I'd probably have got up, moved her or called her to do something different to diffuse her tension. This isn't her 'winning' its just removing a problem.
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That's where I went very wrong.

I thought that because she was on her back and having her tummy rubbed that she was happy and the grumble was a dog purr. I was wrong.

When I moved her I should have put her on the floor or in her crate rather than to the side of me on the sofa.

So many lessons learned.
 
ps - reading lots of other advice, a positive behaviourist is your next step. Instead of 'punishment' which may make her more likely to up the ante on the scales of aggression/anxiety - much better to train her positively that something nice happens when she gets off willingly than train her to resist you to the stage of biting
e.g if I want a toy from a dog instead of wrestilng it from them, tightly holding them or tapping them on the head - I would instead offer a higher value treat from get go so the dog learns that 'thank you' is a nice easy command and doesnt worry or get protective.
 
Since I've been home today she's spent time in her crate.

The door is open and she can come and go.

She went and jumped up onto D's chair with him. He told her "Off" and she got off without argument. Went back to her crate. When the GSD walked nearish is she grumbled. I told her "No" and she stopped straightaway.
 
Eira our westie has the terrier grumble. It was much much worse when I first got her - she had been stressed and miserable in her previous home (and her skin probably really hurt), and had mist definitely learnt that it got annoying things to go away and leave her alone. I used to just tell her to bob off and go in her bed when she did it, but I found the crucial thing was making her move, rather than moving her myself.

She never snapped at me, but did a few times at the other dog and at the cat (for which she got promptly swiped as only a cat can). I can't remember the last time she snapped, maybe 6 years ago now. She does still grumble at the odd thing, but it's more akin to someone muttering under their breath these days than as a warning/go away type of expression.
 
SusieT said:
ps - reading lots of other advice, a positive behaviourist is your next step. Instead of 'punishment' which may make her more likely to up the ante on the scales of aggression/anxiety - much better to train her positively that something nice happens when she gets off willingly than train her to resist you to the stage of biting
e.g if I want a toy from a dog instead of wrestilng it from them, tightly holding them or tapping them on the head - I would instead offer a higher value treat from get go so the dog learns that 'thank you' is a nice easy command and doesnt worry or get protective.
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This is what we do with one of the Rotties. Taking something has never been a good plan. He's learnt 'Swap' and now we can get whatever it is out of his mouth without there being a standoff.
 
DabDab said:
Eira our westie has the terrier grumble. It was much much worse when I first got her - she had been stressed and miserable in her previous home (and her skin probably really hurt), and had mist definitely learnt that it got annoying things to go away and leave her alone. I used to just tell her to bob off and go in her bed when she did it, but I found the crucial thing was making her move, rather than moving her myself.

She never snapped at me, but did a few times at the other dog and at the cat (for which she got promptly swiped as only a cat can). I can't remember the last time she snapped, maybe 6 years ago now. She does still grumble at the odd thing, but it's more akin to someone muttering under their breath these days than as a warning/go away type of expression.
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This sounds so like the wee dog.

Will definitely work on the getting her to move. Interestingly she's responding much quicker to the 'get off' type commands. She still doesn't like being told to move out of the way when she wants to be out, but quiet consistency where once she's done what she was told to do the result is something positive, i.e. she gets to go out, seems to be slowly working.

She appears to be happy in her was-cats-bed in her crate with the door open. She doesn't want to come out on command, rolls over and waves legs in the air, but will have the slip lead put on without issue and comes out happy with wagging tail.

Just had them all outside. All fine and perfectly happy. She was mixing in with the others. Not a hint of a grumble even when she was bumbled over by one of them. Came in happy, even when she had to walk between a Rotties front legs to get inside, and now all are crashed out in their usual spots. Will be watching to see what happens when they move around and go past her spot.
 
Sounds like she is enjoying her safe crate space. Tbh, for Eira as much as anything it was gently teaching her that if she wanted peace and quiet she could get up on her own pins and take herself to her designated safe space rather than grumbling at everyone else and trying to control what they were doing.
 
DabDab said:
Sounds like she is enjoying her safe crate space. Tbh, for Eira as much as anything it was gently teaching her that if she wanted peace and quiet she could get up on her own pins and take herself to her designated safe space rather than grumbling at everyone else and trying to control what they were doing.
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D just asked if it was okay for her to be in her crate all night and some part of the day. I said yes as during the day she can come and go as she pleases, so long as she doesn't grumble at anyone, so it's up to her how much time she spends in there during the day.
 
I am a bit conflicted with this, I would use a house line so that I can remove her without crowding from any place I want to remove her from but I think that has been covered.
If she is in her bed in her space I would ignore a grumble at the other dogs, it is one way of communicating that she needs space.
My lurcher will not share sleeping space with other dogs and she used to wake up with a start and a grumble at anyone who touched her. I queried pain and we stopped correcting her and she is now so much better I honestly think a large part of her issue was pain and also the stress that was being caused by the corrections.
It's a fine line and really hard to advise without seeing what is going on

OP your head must be in a spin with all the advice and I would recommend seeking out a good trainer to come and see what is going on, or even videoing it as her subtle body language may be saying so much.
Good luck
 
MrsMozart said:
This is what we do with one of the Rotties. Taking something has never been a good plan. He's learnt 'Swap' and now we can get whatever it is out of his mouth without there being a standoff.
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I once had to tickle the rehomed Rott's mouth to make her let go of my finger! She had been taught to swap, one day she had a piece of coal,I realised too late that I had nothing to give her but told her to give me the coal and when she didn't I tried to take it from her mouth, which she promptly closed! She didn't make contact but was definitely not for opening her mouth. I looked round for something to swap but there was nothing within reach. When she felt me tickling the roof of her mouth, she spat me out!


As for the terrier, she will be fine, I'm sure you just need to be a bit more boundaried with her and put yourself in her place, remember that she hasn't been used to consistency, so she feels the need to take charge, even when that has got her into trouble in the past.
 
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