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Ambers Echo

Ambers Echo

Still wittering on
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13 October 2017
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So anyone following the weekend thread will know that I broke 2 bones - tibia and talus - falling off Amber who was a bit (very) wild at Somerford. I've had her 3 years, ridden her at Somerfird dozens of times and she's never behaved like that. Yes she's exuberant but that has always expressed itself in speed and height, not in airs above the ground. My RI said it looked like exuberance. She's too fresh. But she is worked 5/6 times a week! And she gets 3/4 hours turn out a day which is not as much as I'd like but lot better than many get in winter. She'll have more in April x

Anyway I'll be out for about 12 weeks. And I need to decide what to do with her. There's a resting livery not far from me where she could be turned away. Lose some fitness hopefully (though she never really does) chill a bit and then go on schooling livery for a month or so before I get back on?

Or leave her at home but limited turnout without the work is not tempting so I'd need to pay someone to keep her working.

Or I'm even now seriously considering letting someone else ride/compete her this season while I rebuild my confidence on Dolly. I think I'd enjoy driving round watching her in action.

Those with event horses - as they get, fitter, stronger and more experienced do they actually get MORE challenging as they know what it's all about and get excited? I remember my first BE80 at Kelsall - we basically trotted round it! I could not do that now I don't think. Heads all over the place so thoughts welcome.
 
Horses when they’re very fit do get more silly if they aren’t given the opportunity to run it off.
Personally I wouldn’t keep my boy if I couldn’t guarantee 8 hours of turnout a day minimum in winter because he would simply be unrideable.

Having worked with fit competition horses across several disciplines I can confirm that once a horse knows and loves its job, it is likely to get a bit exuberant at competitions. One of our polo ponies is a prime example - she’s an idiot whilst stood at the side of the pitch waiting for her turn. She flings herself around like a cat on hot coals, and squeals like a pig. Her first season she stood quietly. Now she knows the drill she gets excited.

If it were me I would turn her away and look at it again in a couple of months time. I would also consider the turnout situation for next winter, or look at working seven days a week, sometimes twice a day, to keep on top of the silliness. That is the only way I can keep my boy rideable.
 
I'm not sure if Millie was an event horse but she was a horse that evented. She definitely got more lit up when she knew what was coming but I think I got better at managing her so it wasn't really a problem. I never did crack the lit-upness hunting though - I just gave up!

Anyway, I think this depends on how much of a battering your confidence has had. In the immediate term it won't hurt her to be turned away for a bit if that's the easiest solution. I think this would mean you end up with horses on 3 yards though? which would not be ideal and I wouldn't want to be in a rush to move her again having only just moved - even the ones that seem OK with moves do reach a point where they aren't really coping deep down I think.

if there's an option to keep her at home and have someone do stuff with her that may be better, if there's someone suitable and you have the funds for it.

If you are feeling a bit wobbly about the idea of riding and competing her yourself this year then that changes things. Do you think that's a serious option, or just a bit of the shock and surprise talking? Might you just want someone to do the first half of the season, and then you'd be dying to get back on board yourself?
 
Being worked 5 days a week and standing in a stable for up to 21 hours is a recipe for disaster with anything but the sanest, and you've got a quality competition horse who is a bit fit.
I think you have the right ideas- either I would turn her away or bite the bullet and send her to a semi-pro if you can find one, or pro if you can’t and enjoy being an owner. They could really establish her for you whilst you recover and if you enjoyed it and could afford it(!) then it could carry on.
 
milliepops said:
If you are feeling a bit wobbly about the idea of riding and competing her yourself this year then that changes things. Do you think that's a serious option, or just a bit of the shock and surprise talking? Might you just want someone to do the first half of the season, and then you'd be dying to get back on board yourself?
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I honestly don't know. I think it's too early to tell tbh. I have crises of confidence on her every so often but we get through them. But whether this time the wobbles may persist a bit I don't know! It's a good point about moving her again. The place I was thinking of looks nice and relaxed for the horses - it''s used as a retirement/rehab or end of season resting place. But a move is a move and it's too far for me to go and see her often. She'd be in a new place with new people looking after. But then again if I give her to someone to ride that will also be another move unless they can school/compete from my yard.
 
TheMule said:
Being worked 5 days a week and standing in a stable for up to 21 hours is a recipe for disaster with anything but the sanest, and you've got a quality competition horse who is a bit fit.
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Not enough turn out or not enough work? Or both? Somerford has liveries who are all quality comp horses and they get 2-3 hours every other day in winter! A lot of competition yards seem to have very limited turnout.
 
I hope you don't take this the wrong way but to me she has often looked rather too much in control and as if she could become explosive in certain situations, being in more than normal, getting stronger and fitter would be the type of scenario where she could go pop, if you can afford to send her to a pro it could be the making of her, you then have the option of taking back a more established horse or selling if you decide to change direction, you may find someone, DeeDees sharer?? or similar, to ride her from your yard but that can cost more when all things are accounted for.

Hope you are not too sore, it sounds nasty and very unlucky, just what you didn't need when you were getting settled.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Not enough turn out or not enough work? Or both? Somerford has liveries who are all quality comp horses and they get 2-3 hours every other day in winter! A lot of competition yards seem to have very limited turnout.
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HHO will always come back and say not enough turnout ;)
Mine are getting about 3 hours a day at the moment and it certainly makes for lively rides, I do really try and work them every day to make up for the time spent in the stable. this is the best I can do in my area, most places randomly close fields for a week at a time, at least with this regime they go out every single day in winter.

But I would try and get more work into her if she was mine - this is fine to say after the event and doesn't help you now though!
 
Ambers Echo said:
I honestly don't know. I think it's too early to tell tbh. I have crises of confidence on her every so often but we get through them. But whether this time the wobbles may persist a bit I don't know! .
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Right, well don't make any decisions yet then.
if she's going out every day at the moment even for a short time then it's not desperately urgent.
Don't make a snap decision when you're still reeling from the shock of what happened. And disappointment & all the rest of the stuff swirling around with Izzy and her injury etc.
Can you buy yourself a bit of time to think, could your YO or instructor or someone just tick Amber over for a week or 2 for you with quiet stuff so you don't end up leaping into something?

From the outside I would say I agree with BP that she seems like a horse that takes control quite easily so it may be useful for her to spend the next few weeks/months with someone, learning to allow herself to be controlled more easily instead... then you could have a consolidation period together when you're back and healed and you'd still have the second half of the season for yourself. I think that might be more useful to you than sending her to a pro to compete because a pro will probably cope with her exuberance as just a normal cheerful competition horse, but you still have the problem to deal with when she comes back.
 
I don't have any answers as I'm certainly no expert (and not a proper eventer), but my generally sane and easy connie can get wild and lit up about xc early in the season, or later in the season if he hasn't been xc for a while. He can pull some moves! I've decided to pay a pro to get him going for me this year, and I can pick up the ride once he's more established. Like you, I think I will enjoy being owner rather than rider for a bit! No harm in that, imo.

Really sorry about your fall - it sounds awful x
 
MP has pointed out something pertinent, finding a pro that will ride her with you in mind rather than wanting to just get results in competitions is important, it will be no help if they go out and run her up through the levels, she needs to be learning to settle, do a better test and be a little more mannerly xc all which should be doable by the right person, the wrong one will get her more buzzy and be counter productive.
 
be positive said:
I hope you don't take this the wrong way but to me she has often looked rather too much in control and as if she could become explosive in certain situations, being in more than normal, getting stronger and fitter would be the type of scenario where she could go pop, if you can afford to send her to a pro it could be the making of her, you then have the option of taking back a more established horse or selling if you decide to change direction, you may find someone, DeeDees sharer?? or similar, to ride her from your yard but that can cost more when all things are accounted for.

Hope you are not too sore, it sounds nasty and very unlucky, just what you didn't need when you were getting settled.
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Not taking it the wrong way. I know she takes over too often. She's always been on the edge of what I can manage but I have never felt unsafe on her before. Lacking control sometimes but not actually unsafe as I can get her back fairly quickly. I love Amber. She is so enthusiastic and generous and brave and tries so hard. I decided long ago that I just need to get good enough to ride her. I have worked so, so hard to try and step up to be able to ride her and the idea of giving up and letting her go breaks my heart. But I have kids,, am self employed and the family totally rely on my income. And maybe I just can't take her any further on as the better she gets and the more we do, the more powerful and keen she gets?

Or maybe a few tweaks to her management and a few weeks at boot-camp would sort her out for me?!

If I was to send her away, how long for? I'm looking at 3 months till I can ride again, I was thinking 6 weeks turned away or ticking over and 6 weeks with a pro. Or should I use a pro asap? Just costs a fortune! I guess the pro can tell me whether she becomes a nice mannerly ride or whether she is still a bit yeehaa? Or will she just behave well for them anyway because they will contain her without even realising they are doing anything. Too many things to think about!
 
Oh no, just what you didn’t need ?

These competition horses do get to know the job and can get above themselves, especially in a winter like this when turnout is reduced/non existent and the ground is dodgy to even get good canterwork into them. Even my big saint is quite bright at the moment!

The one option I wouldn’t do is keep a horse like her on half day turnout and in light work with someone else. That is a recipe for disaster.

Either turning her away or sending her to the (right) pro is an option. Obviously at opposite ends of the financial scale though. If you are looking for someone I can suggest someone suitable by PM - she has done similar for a couple of other amateur riders
 
I'm truly gutted for you AE.... Fionn is being very silly and bouncy at the moment, but his bucks and bounces are so far easy to sit to, so I just laugh. Don't think I'd be still laughing if he had landed me in your situation though...

Do you have a pro in mind that you could send her to??

Fiona
 
milliepops said:
Right, well don't make any decisions yet then.
if she's going out every day at the moment even for a short time then it's not desperately urgent.
Don't make a snap decision when you're still reeling from the shock of what happened. And disappointment & all the rest of the stuff swirling around with Izzy and her injury etc.
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Yes I need to buy some time. I'm overthinking things. Like with Deedee I suspect a solution will present itself! Though of course I can't ride her either now. The sharer can only do twice a week and she's another who needs riding very regularly. Argggh!
 
Ambers Echo said:
Yes I need to buy some time. I'm overthinking things. Like with Deedee I suspect a solution will present itself! Though of course I can't ride her either now. The sharer can only do twice a week and she's another who needs riding very regularly. Argggh!
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well that's what I was thinking, I'm the same as you, I find myself in a situation and then start coming up with 2 million options in a flap. you'll get another 2 million suggestions here!

I don't think you need to be thinking about parting with her permanently at this point, that's exactly what I mean about making decisions when you are still reeling. If IHW's contact is available then that could be perfect and some good could come out of it all :)
 
Fiona said:
I'm truly gutted for you AE.... Fionn is being very silly and bouncy at the moment, but his bucks and bounces are so far easy to sit to, so I just laugh. Don't think I'd be still laughing if he had landed me in your situation though...

Do you have a pro in mind that you could send her to??

Fiona
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Yes Amber's bucks aren't funny! She is far too big and her back end it far too powerful!! But I can count the times she has bucked with me on one hand. She is not a bucker, rearer, spinner. At least she wasn't till now.

One trainer I have used in the past offered. But he's a strong man and the only time he has ever got on her he got off again quite quickly! She did not like the way he was riding her. He said she needs to tolerate bossing. But my usual RI who also events and has had her on holiday/schooling livery says she's a very sensitive mare and really would not suit someone who dictates too much. She needs effective but sympathetic riding or she'll refuse to co-operate. But what do I know? My belief in what we wee doing is pretty much gone.
 
Hi I'm in same area as you and do know someone who may be able to help you both and if you just want to chat to for now? She's really good with rider confidence and helping you both as a team if you want to drop me a message? I will state I'm not advertising and this lady is no personal connection to me!

Just so sorry you are in this position and hope you're not in too much pain and recovery quickly.
 
milliepops said:
well that's what I was thinking, I'm the same as you, I find myself in a situation and then start coming up with 2 million options in a flap. you'll get another 2 million suggestions here!

I don't think you need to be thinking about parting with her permanently at this point, that's exactly what I mean about making decisions when you are still reeling. If IHW's contact is available then that could be perfect and some good could come out of it all :)
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Yes this..... deep breath and no long term decision yet. I have decided I will send her to a pro. The question is to turn away for a couple of months first to save money and just in case her behaviour is caused by a niggle, to let things settle. Or send her now.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Yes Amber's bucks aren't funny! She is far too big and her back end it far too powerful!! But I can count the times she has bucked with me on one hand. She is not a bucker, rearer, spinner. At least she wasn't till now.
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I think, from what you've said, that you have had one bad day? If she'd just pinged you off but not put you out of action, I think you'd be shaken but not totally losing faith in your partnership. Try and keep some perspective, think about how far the 2 of you have come since you got her. Don't let a bit of bad luck in how things turned out totally cloud your judgement. I think it's good to be realistic about what you need now, but it's just chance that you ended up with a broken ankle rather than just bruised pride xx
 
Ambers Echo said:
One trainer I have used in the past offered. But he's a strong man and the only time he has ever got on her he got off again quite quickly! She did not like the way he was riding her. He said she needs to tolerate bossing. But my usual RI who also events and has had her on holiday/schooling livery says she's a very sensitive mare and really would not suit someone who dictates too much. She needs effective but sympathetic riding or she'll refuse to co-operate.
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on this bit. different discipline but similar problem - Kira is a horse that you can't simply "boss". it causes her behaviour to escalate fast and that is not a good result for anyone. if you rode her in that confrontational way you would get told where to stick it, categorically.
I know, because I tried it. I was told to make her suck it up, but it was not the right thing, at ALL.
But she did need to learn to tolerate direction from her rider and to learn how to let herself be trainable without just taking over.

it's easier in dressage to cope with not really being in control because the consequences of exiting the arena by mistake are so much less than getting it wrong over fixed fences. but K really taught me a lot about real control, and it is possible to have that without the horse taking offense, you just have to be tactful while you teach it. That doesnt mean backing down though.
I won't say that she doesn't get one over me now and then (as per your other thread) but I have been able to teach her that she isn't permitted to dictate things to me, and that I am the one who chooses pace, direction, speed etc. at the same time I learned how to de-escalate when things started to go wrong. it's a never-ending process, I noticed yesterday that I'm getting bolted with in walk pirouettes again (how is that a thing?!) because she's been off games and I am not totally in control of her brain yet! as I say, the consequences are much smaller but the root cause is the same.
 
Ambers Echo said:
I do know what running off in walk feels like!!! Amber is quite good at that.
You are so right - it's about the brain. She might run with her feet but she chooses to run with her mind.
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yeah, and that's why I thought that if you can come back from this wobble yourself, and therefore don't just want to be an owner for the rest of time, you could look to get help from a pro from any discipline, who can install the mind-control bit for you in this period while you are off.
it wouldn't have to be an event rider then, it could be anyone who is a proper horseman.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Not enough turn out or not enough work? Or both? Somerford has liveries who are all quality comp horses and they get 2-3 hours every other day in winter! A lot of competition yards seem to have very limited turnout.
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I would say a combination of both. I have managed competition yards where horses only get three to four hours of turnout a day. HOWEVER, they are worked twice a day, every day. Lunged, hacked or galloped one end of the day and then schooled or jumped the other end.

If you aren’t exercising like this, and a horse is stood in for 21 hours that is a recipe for disaster.

The reason someone above said that HHO will always come back saying not enough turnout, is that this is true. Most horse owners aren’t professional riders with all day on the yard, most have horses that fit in around other full time work so exercising this much isn’t feasible.

Personally I wouldn’t keep my horse if I couldn’t ensure he had adequate turnout every day. When I opened my own yard I was amazed by how quickly I was full, with a waiting list, with most people saying that they made the move mostly because I offered turnout in small, same sex herds, 365 days a year, whatever the weather, in large, well drained fields with access to good shelter. I even had people moving before my school and facilities had been finished, just so they could get their horses turned out each day!

I would still definitely turn away and give yourself a breather. With regard to moving lots, remember that competition horses move all over the world to compete regularly. We have a string of polo ponies who regularly go to Germany for the summer, or Spain for a few weeks in winter to play. As long as you have a strict routine and think of the horses best interests, moving shouldn’t be a drama. There are of course horses who simply don’t settle when moved, but these are rare. In all my time with horses and managing big yards, I have known only two.
 
I'm sorry about the leg, that's rubbish :( Although on a confidence note I think MP's statement that it's only bad luck that you got hurt - if you'd been pinged off and got back on uninjured you'd feel a lot better.

On the horse side of it, I agree with Starzaan. I mean, of course I do - I'm one of the HHO-Is-Obsessed-By-Turnout-Mafia. I get that I'm a broken record, but I do think it makes a difference. Limited turnout works if you really (really, really) work horses - mentally and physically. And how much work they require depends on the horse - some will cope with normal schooling / hacking / riding, but some (and I think Amber falls into this category) are just too busy and confident in their own assessment of life to cope without serious work. A good pro could really install some sense, but I'd always look to management to make an easier horse.

Am I right in thinking this is the first year you've kept her with more limited turnout? I feel like I read a thread about you moving her to a yard with Deedee (who's situation is a little different, she's a weirdo!) but maybe I'm imagining it?
 
Starzaan said:
I would say a combination of both. I have managed competition yards where horses only get three to four hours of turnout a day. HOWEVER, they are worked twice a day, every day. Lunged, hacked or galloped one end of the day and then schooled or jumped the other end.
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AE - I missed that you'd had a nasty fall. Really sorry to hear this and I hope you fix quickly.

In addition to what Starzaan has said I found when I used the facilities of a local competition yard that all the yard riders were young, thought the acrobatics were good fun and generally bounced when they hit the deck. I'd usually be found hiding down the other end of their school wondering what brand of super glue they had on their bottoms and feeling my age. I'm not sure those of us with normal lives and jobs can really give a horse that kind of exercise.

You mentioned your RI has had Amber before for training? Would she / could she take her again while you are off? You'd have the advantage then of someone who knows you and your horse.
 
I agree re less turnout and that possibly being the trigger but this mare has been on the edge and taking too much control, even in walk, when living out 24/7 which is why I feel some time with a pro learning the basics, not that she needs to go back to them for long, will be the way forward, she needs a sympathetic rider but one with very clear ideas about what is, or is not acceptable.
I suspect 6 weeks with the right person would see a very different Amber come back, some seriously hard work with clear boundaries should make her an easier ride, most horses are actually happier with a rider making more decisions for them , this does not need to be bullying/ dominant/ strong just clear minded and disciplined.
 
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