Well, if you knew how some trainers achieved that relaxed and obedient demeanour you might not be as impressed……As in every horsey sphere there are good practitioners, and those that can’t quite cut the mustard and resort to short cuts and underhand methods. It’s quite common for horses to be lunged for hours before their young riders are put up, or deprived of water, etc., etc.
I watched a video once and on the chronicle of the horse forum seen some threads where they were quite open about drugging/dehydrating them so their owners could stay on
was a few years ago, also a video of a really nice horse winning on Facebook winning a show the after video and schooling video as the before… schooling video nice up hill very chill canter. Show looked four beat and half dead? Like he was going to trip over fences. Not for me… then again I don’t even jump these days!! water is getting warm on the equestrian industry at the moment hope we don’t get boiled!!
George Morris would have a fit if he saw that rider. And it started long before George got involved.
You spelled "consistent and rideable" wrong.
I agree that it's great for green horses and riders. It can establish such a wonderful foundation (again, when done correctly).
Really interesting thank you for explaining. It looks like they jump with standing martingales I was always taught that you shouldn't jump in a standing martingale as it constricted the movement and was not kind. I presume the standing martingale is to keep the head and frame low?You spelled "consistent and rideable" wrong.
Don't confuse the straight show hunter types in the US with the "stock hunters" (breed-specific versions of hunters ie. Quarter Horses, Appaloosas, Paints) which are slightly taller Western Pleasure horses in English tack. That's an entirely separate discipline and they don't use European bred horses for that. And real hunter/jumper types in the US look at those stock hunters and can't figure them out either, so congratulations, you have something in common with US hunter riders.
Proper hunters in North America (because Canada has the same system) don't go around with their head halfway on the ground, they move with impulsion and have a forward step. I can see how that might be confusing if one is used to hunters here in the UK being high headed or in a very condensed outline, or running around at different rhythms/pace throughout the course and jumping from short and long distances in the same round. Comparatively, North American show hunters move with plenty of pace/impulsion, but it looks slow because they are balanced, relaxed, and on a consistent pace the entire time. They might be on a longer outline, but they're still pushing from behind. Horses don't need their heads cranked up in a short outline to be in balance.
This video shows one of my favorite hunter derby rounds. The horse carries plenty of pace and demonstrates excellent manners and athleticism. This is a derby round which features a mandatory trot jump and hand gallops asked at specific parts of the course:
And here is British-born, American-raised (grew up riding in the North American forward seat system) Grace Debney putting in a beautiful hunter round in a much smaller arena. Plenty of pace, the horse is relaxed and in balance, which gives the illusion they're going slow.
Grace Debney winning the Gladstone Equitation Cup:
And Grace turning and burning in a 1.45 GP last season:
I hope she goes on to be a regular on British teams in the future when she's older. And when she does...you're welcome.
But back to US show hunters....
One of the best hunt horses I ever rode (in three years of hunting professionally full time) was a show hunter in the States. One of the best (US) show hunters I ever rode started her life as a field hunter in Virginia. Despite what many people mistakenly believe, North American show hunters can (and do) cross seamlessly into the hunting scene. Do they often? Absolutely not, because of lack of accessibility to local hunts, or because they're simply too expensive for their owners to risk. And sadly, only a small population of show hunter riders also hunt. But they do exist and the two worlds do compliment each other nicely.
Also keep in mind that fox hunting in the US is different than here in the UK or Ireland. We don't have big hedge country in the US. I hunted in Virginia, the US hunting capitol. Lots of stone walls, coops built into fences, and trappy wooded country. That means a lot of jumping single file or at most two at a time. Horses need to be patient and polite, because in all the amazing hunt country we had in Virginia, we had maybe two or three fixtures all season that offered the opportunity for the field to jump together. Almost all the rest of it requires horses to be patient when coming up to a jump. Hunting out west might be different, but I only hunted on the East Coast.
If I was jumping big hedge country then sure, I think I'd prefer to be mounted on something more like the UK-style hunter. But I rode Irish hunt horses imported from Ireland in Virginia, and while I loved them on the day-to-day, hunting them was miserable. I got my arms ripped out every time.
As someone who grew up in the North American hunter and equitation scene, and having spent the last 2.5 years here in the UK at multiple yards and having staffed unaffiliated and BS affiliated competitions, here are my observations:
- I have been very impressed with how much more independent riders in the UK are from the US. They also have a more well-rounded approach to riding, with lots of folks dabbling in multiple disciplines. That happens in the US too, but there I feel it's more discipline-focused.
- UK competitions are a thousand times more efficient and affordable than US shows. I don't know the US could ever get back to more grassroots type showing, but I wish it would.
- Generally speaking, UK riders are much more defensive (heavy handed and heavy-sitting) than US riders. I assume out hunting in hedge country this is a handy style to have. It's generally less useful in the arena though.
- I was genuinely disappointed and a little horrified to see the quality of riding in most of the UK hunter classes at affiliated shows, including Windsor. Running around on the wrong leg, disunited, chipping in or taking flyers, all in the same round.
- Generally speaking, UK riders tend to ride more behind the motion, and I have seen quite consistently horses getting hit in the mouth over the top of the jump or on the landing side. This is exacerbated when riders don't have a good sense of rhythm/pace/line and meet the jump consistently on a half-stride, which just punishes their horses when they get hit in the teeth.
- Releasing over the jump doesn't seem to be emphasized in the UK as it is in North America. This is not a good thing, especially when riders already tend to ride a lot more defensively.
- I wholeheartedly agree that the North American system is much more forgiving for the horses than the UK system, especially when the riders are learning. I would much rather have a rider get dumped in front of a fence for being slightly ahead of the motion than have them hang on the horse's mouth over/after the jump.
I also agree that a UK rider would be better at gutsy riding/kicking on and "getting it done" on a tough horse or in a sticky situation than a North American rider. But the beauty of the North American system is that, when done correctly, it prevents any need for the defensive riding in the first place.
As others have said, the "ideal" for me would be somewhere between the North American and UK systems. More independence, more emphasis on branching outside one's dedicated discipline, more horsemanship, better emphasis on riding basics like softness, balance, release, pace/rhythm/track, etc.
With regards to the sales ad...US and Canadians are well aware that European sellers/breeders are targeting them. The smart producers in Europe tuned into the North American hunter scene 20-30 years ago and have been making bank ever since. And as others have said, even with the import costs and the European horse shopping trip expenses, buying horses in Europe can still be cheaper than producing/purchasing a comparable prospect in the States. It's cheaper and easier to produce a competition horse in Europe where there is a higher concentration of competitions in a smaller radius and competitions tend to be cheaper.
Very few hunters go from first flight to show ring. My point was the over all state of hunters. Not cherry picking the good programs.
Excuse you?
I no longer do from disgust. I used to work at the top. Like I said in a previous post, there is a lot about the American Hunter that disgusts me.
And so can I. Disciplines should be admired when done right. Disciplines shouldn’t hide when they do wrong. Hunters in the US are the only group of people I know that get offended when called out. They have the most sex offenders, and they are the reason for the USEF drug rules.
Correctly fitted a standing martingale is kinder than a running martingale. It does not restrict forward stretch of the neck, or sock the horses mouth. I do not have the links but somewhere on youtube there are videos of horses jumping wide water jumps (military or hunting I forget which) and it really shows how much give the standing martingales have in such circumstances, allowing the horses full use of their head and neck for balance.
