American Hunter type

[Tiddlypom]

I *ought* to like the hunter jumper style, as back in my (admittedly very limited) jumping days I prioritised rhythm and allowing my horse freedom of the head and neck over fences. I also used to go to the late Pat Burgess’s gymnastic jumping clinics, which very much worked on technique.

Instead, I see glazed eyed and frankly knackered looking horses lumbering on the forehand around a course of fences .

Do the Riding Club still run Equitation Jumping classes? They were supposed to encourage stylish jumping. I was on my RC team for that when it was a very new concept here in the UK in the 80s.

 

[4Hoofed]

A standing martingale is used to stop the head going too high, not to tie it down. That seems to need explaining rather often.

It was always considered the correct thing to use on a young hunter on its first days, so in a way it would be correct turnout.

There are lots of very good riders and trainers in America and as I have said so many times before, just because something is different (to what you are used to) doesn't make it wrong.

I think the general standard of riding in the UK at the lower levels is not that great. We learn to stick on, stop and steer and then we are away. It is only when we want to compete we then discover that maybe our riding needs to improve and become more refined, so we have to start to learn riding all over again.

I have to say I was very confused when I was told at uni you couldn’t jump in a standing as I knew many horses who hunted over big fences in them when I was younger fitted properly they have their place but they are out of vogue and I doubt you can buy an anatomical one

I honestly think all disciplines across all bodies of water need a good hard look at if we are to keep our social licenses to ride let alone compete if we are not careful. I honestly think if a horse has to be lunged, doped and pain killered to gills to compete then you shouldn’t be riding it no matter the medal, or prize on the line. BUT that should be applied to all our equestrian pursuits as they are living beings not f1 cars to be tuned up. But that’s not limited to hunter/jumper or working hunter.

It’s been a while since I’ve really watched that many rounds but it looks like they are not lying on their necks as much anymore it was pretty extreme watching sometimes. I used to think god if that horse trips on landing they’re gonna die, both horse and rider napping but equally I don’t enjoy watching horses being booted about and hauled in ever increasing bits, nosebands etc.

 

[Cortez]

When I lived in the US we (DQ's - dressage queens) used to call them the Ass-Pokers, but in an affectionate way. The standing martingale is kind of part of the uniform; there isn't a one of them that even remotely needs one, and it's part of the myth that it's part of fox hunting kit. There is even a photograph of me somewhere wearing a standing martingale and poking my ass out like billy-o on my one and only foray into the HJ ring (showing a horse that sold for loads). There are far worse things done to horses than lobbing around a course of low fences in somnolent fashion, IMO (leaving aside all the nefarious things done by HJ people not up to snuff).

 

[YourValentine]

@SibeliusMB 'As others have said, the "ideal" for me would be somewhere between the North American and UK systems. More independence, more emphasis on branching outside one's dedicated discipline, more horsemanship, better emphasis on riding basics like softness, balance, release, pace/rhythm/track, etc.

Actually this does exist - the Aussies and Kiwis very much are this. They are very much taught the light seat but the show scene is pretty independent. Hence why I always think the most beautiful riders we see eventing are the Aussies and Kiwis especially XC and why they switch to pure Sjing very easily as demonstrated by Mark Todd and Chris Burton.

Australia is weird. It produces some excellent top riders, but the average riding ability and general horsemanship knowledge at riding club level is shocking. Far worse than here, and perhaps more damaging is the pervasive myths of what is "right / should be done" that are totally contrary to horse welfare and happiness

I think the real divide is, most of the top riders, if you look into their background, grew up riding around farms/ the out back, often doing stock work where you have to learn balance and an independent seat or you'll probably fall off and have VERY long walks home. A bit similar to the experience kids get hunting or similar here. You have to learn to balance and work with your horse across all sorts of terrain.

Then there is another school of riders who have learnt to ride only in an arena or an enclosed level field. They might look pretty but have no balance and/or judgement of pace and how to ride across terrain that isn't a perfect arena. You see some of them riding XC and it is terrifying.
I saw so many falls, some quite serious, that were 100% rider fault due to poor balance/ poor judgement of pace/ no independence of the seat.

 

[Northern]

Australia is weird. It produces some excellent top riders, but the average riding ability and general horsemanship knowledge at riding club level is shocking. Far worse than here, and perhaps more damaging is the pervasive myths of what is "right / should be done" that are totally contrary to horse welfare and happiness

I think the real divide is, most of the top riders, if you look into their background, grew up riding around farms/ the out back, often doing stock work where you have to learn balance and an independent seat or you'll probably fall off and have VERY long walks home. A bit similar to the experience kids get hunting or similar here. You have to learn to balance and work with your horse across all sorts of terrain.

Then there is another school of riders who have learnt to ride only in an arena or an enclosed level field. They might look pretty but have no balance and/or judgement of pace and how to ride across terrain that isn't a perfect arena. You see some of them riding XC and it is terrifying.
I saw so many falls, some quite serious, that were 100% rider fault due to poor balance/ poor judgement of pace/ no independence of the seat.

This in spades. The general horse keeping here in Australia leaves a lot to be desired. I was a riding school product and was on my own without any support with my very forgiving first young thoroughbred. I’ve figured it out over many years, but I know so many pretty but ineffective riders. I dislike riding with them as anything out of the norm becomes a Big Issue and their horses start playing up…

I wouldn’t say a light seat is taught here though (@LEC). Burto and Todd have based themselves overseas for a long time and Shane Rose has international coaching which has moulded his successful career (he also educates racehorse which is probably where his light seat originates). I stopped eventing years ago (horse died/too expensive) and recently went to watch an event. The standard is shocking. Post Covid, clueless parents spent small fortunes on professionally produced non amateur horses. It’s downright dangerous to watch at times, incorrect use of spurs and huge bits at low levels, riding like a sack of potatoes thumping down on the horses back. My vet boss treated a horse who galloped right into a tree, head first. Rider had no control and the impact was heard across the entire course. Horse got up blind after an hour of intensive care, but was never ridden again (rider also didn’t pay her vet bill but that’s another story…).

I’m rather fascinated by the Hunter seat, but know next to nothing about it. I do know it takes real skill to produce a horse tailored to the strides required, goodness knows it took me long enough to see a stride .

 

[LEC]

Well if we are going into detail the main common denominator that the Aussies have is usually Heath Ryan - Boyd Martin, Shane, Burto, jock paget, Kevin McNab etc all products of Heath Ryan. Pretty impressive really.

 

[Denali]

This is really going to show my riding age. When done correctly, the hunters are the hybrid that people are talking about in this thread. The problem is, the industry has gotten so far away from forward outdoor courses, jumping out of the ring, and unrelated distances they no longer teach it.

Forward was rewarded. Not how slow you can make a five stride line look because your horse has a 12’+ monster stride.

 

[seriously festive equine]

This was sold by a top end dealer/producer to the USA in summer 2004 as a hunter jumper for £100,000. Whilst he waited to be processed and shipped he had a field accident and skinned the front of his cannons both forelimbs (he rolled and got his fronts under the post and rail). Buyer was concerned he would carry scarring and not be suitable for the USA hunter/jumper classes which are basically a cross of our hunter weight classes and working hunter classes and a decent dressage horse. Buyer withheld the balance of the purchase price until the wounds had healed. The horse healed with white scarring on both forelimbs and the buyer forfeited the deposit and withdrew.

I bought him in December 2004 for 9k with his bespoke Jaguar saddle and bridle. He was tricky in the first year but then never looked back and was rarely beaten as a middle weight, he was also a rosette machine BD. Those white scars - nothing a little bit of waterproof mascara didn't cover. He will be 30 next year and my horse of a lifetime, loved dearly and I dread the day that isn't that far away.

Brilliant what a great story

 

[seriously festive equine]

The kids in the usa are generally (from what I've seen) decent riders. More decent riders there then here sometimes. I don't ride for competitive purposes though so???? I can't ride Half the fancy dressage moves some can do I used to Always get eliminated in show-jumping (I never got further then a rein back ) never went to RC or PC but when i was a girl i would gallop cross country over the moors jump ditches and streams that half the fancy warmbloods wouldn't look at and had a brilliant time! And all on a scruffy native gelding who I trusted implicitly! What's not to like?

 

[jenni:)]

I only worked in the USA for a brief while, at summer camps, so my experience is much more limited than some others here. But my experience was: kids came from expensive, East Coast 'show barns'. They could ride something and look very pretty. They were very correct and their position was (almost) technically faultless, as in, you could take the head-hips-heel line right out of the book and they'd have it. But they had no idea how to kick, how to ride something that wanted to go sideways, how to ride something that didn't want to go, or wanted to go, but not where they did. The kids I met had stiff, rigid hands (usually not helped because they were scared ***less of a horse with a brain) and stiff, rigid bodies.
Whereas the 'riding school kids' I teach here are usually less technically 'correct' (and I tell them enough), but, can sit a canter, can sit a buck, can make a pony go (not pretty or quiet and probably not in the best way for the pony), can use their inside leg, are generally able to ride anything that isn't 'perfect', just don't look pretty doing it.
The ones that succeed in the UK are the ones that can ride anything, the ones in the US that succeed can look pretty. That's how it appears to me.

 

[spacefaer]

And if you're selling to the States nowadays you have to have a 100% perfect full set of xrays for their vets to examine. Otherwise they'll walk.
I've sold a couple to America. It's a very demanding very specific market.

 

[Tiddlypom]

And if you're selling to the States nowadays you have to have a 100% perfect full set of xrays for their vets to examine. Otherwise they'll walk.

That’s interesting.

Which x rays are expected?

 

[ihatework]

That’s interesting.

Which x rays are expected?

The Americans usually do feet, fetlock's, knees, hocks, stifle, back & neck IME and are super critical in the interpretation

 

[Tiddlypom]

Thanks, ihw. It’s quite rare over here to routinely do pre purchase x rays of the back and neck, isn’t it?

 

[ihatework]

Thanks, ihw. It’s quite rare over here to routinely do pre purchase x rays of the back and neck, isn’t it?

It’s not routine but becoming more common, especially on higher value sales.