Animal welfare bill

Drag and blood hound packs have arguably not done enough to distance themselves from fox trail hunting.

Even on this forum many of us horsey types aren’t really clear about the differences between the three versions.

Drag and bloodhound packs will be very worried too, for sure, particularly the drag packs.
 
ihatework said:
Trail hunting are the foxhound packs who are mostly still foxhunting behind a smokescreen.

Drag/bloods have never hunted fox, different hound breed and they hunt a genuine trail
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Just to elaborate on ihateworks post.

Trail hunting use fox scent, hence the smokescreen, because the hounds can’t distinguish the laid trail from other fox scents in their environment.

Drag hunting use aniseed as a scent, and Bloods scent a human runner - so neither these deviant from the trail they are following.
 
lizziebell said:
Just to elaborate on ihateworks post.

Trail hunting use fox scent, hence the smokescreen, because the hounds can’t distinguish the laid trail from other fox scents in their environment.

Drag hunting use aniseed as a scent, and Bloods scent a human runner - so neither these deviant from the trail they are following.
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Oh my god THANK YOU. This is the first explanation I've read that makes sense.

As someone who doesn't live over there, all the explanations read like this:

"Trail hunts are where you drag a scent across the ground to lay a TRAIL.

Drag hunts are where you DRAG a scent across the ground to lay a trail.

OBVIOUSLY the first one is secretly illegal fox hunting and the second one is abiding by the rules."
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I could not figure out why everyone was so adamant that the ones called trail hunts resulted in hunting real fox, and the ones called drag hunts didn't.

(The bloodhounds made sense because I THINK they are chasing an actual live human?)
 
I don't think it will stop there. I had a recent chat with a sab and it started with foxes but then led on to poor hounds and finally poor children who never have a choice about joining. So let's hope sabs don't go after drag hunts next but then arguably as long as no fox is hunted or harmed then it shouldn't really be an issue anymore.

Sadly the trail hunts chasing foxes have ruined it for the rest.
 
there are some details on the BBC website. Definitely a step in the right direction, although IMO it doesn't go far enough. But things are looking up for farm animals as well as pets. It omits specifics about horse breeding and game shooting but hopefully those things will be next on the agenda.
 
Agree. I was shocked to see that crating farrowing sows is still allowed and even more shocked that the farmers caging the sows (and chicken) are complaining that they will be unable to be competitive with foreign imports unless they are allowed to continue these cruel practises. Surely the correct answer is for the government to ban the importation of any meat that was not raised under welfare practises that are the same or better than those in the UK. Super cheap meat should not exist as raising sentient creatures as quickly as possible at the lowest cost is never going to be good for the animals.
 
Over the years I participated in trail hunting, drag hunting and bloodhound packs. I never hunted pre-ban.
My favourite, by a long chalk, was the bloodhound pack. Hunted with the same pack for three seasons and those days were amongst the very best of my life.

The drag hunt followed an aniseed trail painted on the hooves of the trail-layers. Most of the drag pack members were very serious jumpers so some of the days were just not suitable for people like me. There was one day when a fox cut across the path but the hounds stuck to the scent trail. (This didn't stop sabs accusing us of killing 'the beautiful vixen')

The trail hunt was a harrier pack that historically hunted hares, not foxes. People in the area used to say that it was effectively a trail hunt even before the ban because they'd only caught one hare over the space of about five years; there just weren't that many hares in the area. I don't know what the scent was but I'm pretty sure it wasn't fox. I do remember one day when the master asked one of the whippers-in to urinate on the rag, but (thankfully) I don't know if it happened or if they were even serious. I only remember one occasion when a hare appeared and the huntsman worked (successfully) to keep the hounds away from it.
One reason I didn't really like trail hunting was that the trail was laid to supposedly mimic the route of a wild animal. At times this would involve winding around paths, going backwards and forwards, up and down hills on heavy, churned up ground for no apparent reason. I know that some liked it, I didn't.

There were rumours about packs that were illegally hunting foxes, we knew who they were. I would never have gone out with those packs. Some should have been prosecuted but weren't.
But it's difficult to say what proportion of packs, nationally, were actually doing this.

Having moved to the Highlands, I don't have any skin in the game any more but I would hate to see bloodhound packs banned simply because some idiots in foxhunting packs didn't obey the law and weren't punished sufficiently.
 
It looks like quite a big bill. It's a shame they don't consider looking at halal slaughter. Or banning fois gras in this country 🤮

Better welfare is undoubtedly good, but we should be prepared for higher meat costs and not just go for the imported stuff because it's cheaper, but I suspect if the cheaper option will be what people go for regardless of welfare. Therefore cheaper imports with lesser welfare regulations will need to be banned or taxed so it doesn't outcompete UK regulated meat, otherwise UK farmers won't stand a chance.

My.main thought is who is going to police all of this? As far as I understand there is 0 capacity in the police force.
 
TinselPoos said:
Agree. I was shocked to see that crating farrowing sows is still allowed and even more shocked that the farmers caging the sows (and chicken) are complaining that they will be unable to be competitive with foreign imports unless they are allowed to continue these cruel practises. Surely the correct answer is for the government to ban the importation of any meat that was not raised under welfare practises that are the same or better than those in the UK. Super cheap meat should not exist as raising sentient creatures as quickly as possible at the lowest cost is never going to be good for the animals.
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Crating of sows has been allowed during the period thy have piglets with them, usually about 3 weeks. This is as a safety/welfare issue for the piglets, a sow is huge compared to a new born piglet. whilst she might not mean to often a piglet may get squashed by Mum a she moves around in her pen. The bars of a crate are set that as she lies down the give the piggies a chance to get to safety. Once the piglets are weaned the sows are returned to straw yards. Sow stalls were banned a good few years ago, in that instance the sows were kept in the stalls almost all the time. There food intake was controlled etc. That was factory faming
 
mariew said:
It looks like quite a big bill. It's a shame they don't consider looking at halal slaughter. Or banning fois gras in this country 🤮
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Yes, absolutely. But if they looked at Halal, they'd have to look at Kosher too - which is arguably slightly worse as Kosher doesn't allow for pre-stunning, whereas Halal, technically speaking, does.

So it looks to me like it would be relatively straightforward to say that all Halal meat had to be pre-stunned, but it wouldn't solve the issues of Kosher.
 
Nancykitt said:
Yes, absolutely. But if they looked at Halal, they'd have to look at Kosher too - which is arguably slightly worse as Kosher doesn't allow for pre-stunning, whereas Halal, technically speaking, does.

So it looks to me like it would be relatively straightforward to say that all Halal meat had to be pre-stunned, but it wouldn't solve the issues of Kosher.
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Well if it's genuinely about welfare maybe they need to say all animals to be killed has to be pre stunned, religion or not 🤷‍♀️
 
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