Animal welfare bill

Drag and blood hound packs have arguably not done enough to distance themselves from fox trail hunting.

Even on this forum many of us horsey types aren’t really clear about the differences between the three versions.

Drag and bloodhound packs will be very worried too, for sure, particularly the drag packs.
 
ihatework said:
Trail hunting are the foxhound packs who are mostly still foxhunting behind a smokescreen.

Drag/bloods have never hunted fox, different hound breed and they hunt a genuine trail
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Just to elaborate on ihateworks post.

Trail hunting use fox scent, hence the smokescreen, because the hounds can’t distinguish the laid trail from other fox scents in their environment.

Drag hunting use aniseed as a scent, and Bloods scent a human runner - so neither these deviant from the trail they are following.
 
lizziebell said:
Just to elaborate on ihateworks post.

Trail hunting use fox scent, hence the smokescreen, because the hounds can’t distinguish the laid trail from other fox scents in their environment.

Drag hunting use aniseed as a scent, and Bloods scent a human runner - so neither these deviant from the trail they are following.
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Oh my god THANK YOU. This is the first explanation I've read that makes sense.

As someone who doesn't live over there, all the explanations read like this:

"Trail hunts are where you drag a scent across the ground to lay a TRAIL.

Drag hunts are where you DRAG a scent across the ground to lay a trail.

OBVIOUSLY the first one is secretly illegal fox hunting and the second one is abiding by the rules."
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I could not figure out why everyone was so adamant that the ones called trail hunts resulted in hunting real fox, and the ones called drag hunts didn't.

(The bloodhounds made sense because I THINK they are chasing an actual live human?)
 
I don't think it will stop there. I had a recent chat with a sab and it started with foxes but then led on to poor hounds and finally poor children who never have a choice about joining. So let's hope sabs don't go after drag hunts next but then arguably as long as no fox is hunted or harmed then it shouldn't really be an issue anymore.

Sadly the trail hunts chasing foxes have ruined it for the rest.
 
there are some details on the BBC website. Definitely a step in the right direction, although IMO it doesn't go far enough. But things are looking up for farm animals as well as pets. It omits specifics about horse breeding and game shooting but hopefully those things will be next on the agenda.
 
Agree. I was shocked to see that crating farrowing sows is still allowed and even more shocked that the farmers caging the sows (and chicken) are complaining that they will be unable to be competitive with foreign imports unless they are allowed to continue these cruel practises. Surely the correct answer is for the government to ban the importation of any meat that was not raised under welfare practises that are the same or better than those in the UK. Super cheap meat should not exist as raising sentient creatures as quickly as possible at the lowest cost is never going to be good for the animals.
 
Over the years I participated in trail hunting, drag hunting and bloodhound packs. I never hunted pre-ban.
My favourite, by a long chalk, was the bloodhound pack. Hunted with the same pack for three seasons and those days were amongst the very best of my life.

The drag hunt followed an aniseed trail painted on the hooves of the trail-layers. Most of the drag pack members were very serious jumpers so some of the days were just not suitable for people like me. There was one day when a fox cut across the path but the hounds stuck to the scent trail. (This didn't stop sabs accusing us of killing 'the beautiful vixen')

The trail hunt was a harrier pack that historically hunted hares, not foxes. People in the area used to say that it was effectively a trail hunt even before the ban because they'd only caught one hare over the space of about five years; there just weren't that many hares in the area. I don't know what the scent was but I'm pretty sure it wasn't fox. I do remember one day when the master asked one of the whippers-in to urinate on the rag, but (thankfully) I don't know if it happened or if they were even serious. I only remember one occasion when a hare appeared and the huntsman worked (successfully) to keep the hounds away from it.
One reason I didn't really like trail hunting was that the trail was laid to supposedly mimic the route of a wild animal. At times this would involve winding around paths, going backwards and forwards, up and down hills on heavy, churned up ground for no apparent reason. I know that some liked it, I didn't.

There were rumours about packs that were illegally hunting foxes, we knew who they were. I would never have gone out with those packs. Some should have been prosecuted but weren't.
But it's difficult to say what proportion of packs, nationally, were actually doing this.

Having moved to the Highlands, I don't have any skin in the game any more but I would hate to see bloodhound packs banned simply because some idiots in foxhunting packs didn't obey the law and weren't punished sufficiently.
 
It looks like quite a big bill. It's a shame they don't consider looking at halal slaughter. Or banning fois gras in this country 🤮

Better welfare is undoubtedly good, but we should be prepared for higher meat costs and not just go for the imported stuff because it's cheaper, but I suspect if the cheaper option will be what people go for regardless of welfare. Therefore cheaper imports with lesser welfare regulations will need to be banned or taxed so it doesn't outcompete UK regulated meat, otherwise UK farmers won't stand a chance.

My.main thought is who is going to police all of this? As far as I understand there is 0 capacity in the police force.
 
TinselPoos said:
Agree. I was shocked to see that crating farrowing sows is still allowed and even more shocked that the farmers caging the sows (and chicken) are complaining that they will be unable to be competitive with foreign imports unless they are allowed to continue these cruel practises. Surely the correct answer is for the government to ban the importation of any meat that was not raised under welfare practises that are the same or better than those in the UK. Super cheap meat should not exist as raising sentient creatures as quickly as possible at the lowest cost is never going to be good for the animals.
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Crating of sows has been allowed during the period thy have piglets with them, usually about 3 weeks. This is as a safety/welfare issue for the piglets, a sow is huge compared to a new born piglet. whilst she might not mean to often a piglet may get squashed by Mum a she moves around in her pen. The bars of a crate are set that as she lies down the give the piggies a chance to get to safety. Once the piglets are weaned the sows are returned to straw yards. Sow stalls were banned a good few years ago, in that instance the sows were kept in the stalls almost all the time. There food intake was controlled etc. That was factory faming
 
mariew said:
It looks like quite a big bill. It's a shame they don't consider looking at halal slaughter. Or banning fois gras in this country 🤮
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Yes, absolutely. But if they looked at Halal, they'd have to look at Kosher too - which is arguably slightly worse as Kosher doesn't allow for pre-stunning, whereas Halal, technically speaking, does.

So it looks to me like it would be relatively straightforward to say that all Halal meat had to be pre-stunned, but it wouldn't solve the issues of Kosher.
 
Nancykitt said:
Yes, absolutely. But if they looked at Halal, they'd have to look at Kosher too - which is arguably slightly worse as Kosher doesn't allow for pre-stunning, whereas Halal, technically speaking, does.

So it looks to me like it would be relatively straightforward to say that all Halal meat had to be pre-stunned, but it wouldn't solve the issues of Kosher.
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Well if it's genuinely about welfare maybe they need to say all animals to be killed has to be pre stunned, religion or not 🤷‍♀️
 
Tiddlypom said:

Don’t seem to be able to copy and paste, but the section on trail hunting is on p26 of 48.
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Thanks for this link. Seems that amongst other things fur could be banned. Good. I firmly believe this strategy is a start but needs to go much much further, but at least it's a start. The over breeding of horses needs adressing, lots of thoroughbreds bred each year, what happens to them all? Ditto gypsy cobs especially mini ones. Btw I think Gypsy cobs are amongst the best of horses especially for temperament but there are far too many of them. I feel all horse breeders should be licenced and inspected. I also believe all horses should have suitable turnout,freedom friends and forage. Horse welfare in this country is very sadly lacking in many areas even in high end establishments. I hope something can be done soon to bring in legislation.
 
I hope the bloodhound and drag hound packs can continue - we have some lovely ones in our area who I so hope can continue.

Trail hunts only have themselves to blame, they should have stayed within the law, yet almost every week you hear and see reports and footage of cruelty and hunting practices that are banned. And I know they will try guilt everyone with the 'oh we'll need to kill all of the hounds because of this' and make a big deal out of it, but again... this could have been avoided if they weren't so arrogant and brought hounds up in a way that they could be rehomed. I'm sure many of them could be anyway. The lack of forward thinking is insane and very irresponsible from the trail hunting people. Did they really think they'd be allowed to carry on as they were indefiniately?

I haven't read the full bill in depth yet, but, we're still seeing new developments to house testing on beagles, we're still seeing religion come before animal welfare, we're still seeing puppy farms not being policed, we're still seeing tethered horses, we're still seeing unethical farming practices, we're still seeing cheap meat, we're still seeing foreign, unregulated meat, we're still seeing cosmetics on the shelves that are not cruelty-free, we still have the dairy and poultry industries that needs a lot of work. There is so much more to tackle before we can call the UK a cruelty-free country.

It's a step in the right direction... but I suspect to make it make more sense to everyone, there is a few of the above the should be tackling first. From what I've read on socials, most of the people who hunt believe it's a class war and an attack on the countryside.
 
Sanversera said:
Announcement tomorrow according to the BBC. I've no sympathy with the hunts if they'd all acted within the law this wouldn't be necessary. It's entirely their own fault.
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You are totally right, a few arrogant MFH's allowing unlawful activities have completely ruined the legal packs ability to continue. There is also a huge industry base around hunting which will be adversely affected, but I can't see that being considered given the way Rachel from Accounts has decimated small business in general.

I think a total ban will be very difficult to achieve because there are many packs that are within the law and have every right to defend themselves. It will be interesting to see what actually happens. Enforcing the ban if it comes in will also be a high resource user and where does enforcement responsibility sit. An easier enforcement route would be prosecuting the land owner on whose land hounds are seen, that would be far more effective than trying to prosecute hunt staff, masters etc.

The other items on the agenda are far easier to regulate, TS will do the farm work and licensing the breeder work, both of course will need an increase in staffing levels.
 
Sanversera said:
Thanks for this link. Seems that amongst other things fur could be banned. Good. I firmly believe this strategy is a start but needs to go much much further, but at least it's a start. The over breeding of horses needs adressing, lots of thoroughbreds bred each year, what happens to them all? Ditto gypsy cobs especially mini ones. Btw I think Gypsy cobs are amongst the best of horses especially for temperament but there are far too many of them. I feel all horse breeders should be licenced and inspected. I also believe all horses should have suitable turnout,freedom friends and forage. Horse welfare in this country is very sadly lacking in many areas even in high end establishments. I hope something can be done soon to bring in legislation.
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There has been a decline in thoroughbred foals being bred - I think the Irish Thoroughbred Breeders Association have given an estimate of around 25% from 2022 - 2026 and there is a global drop. There is a lot of discussion about it in the racing industry at present as to the potential impact both from numbers and quality for racing in the future both here and abroad given the movement of brood mares and horses in training.
 
TinselPoos said:
Agree. I was shocked to see that crating farrowing sows is still allowed and even more shocked that the farmers caging the sows (and chicken) are complaining that they will be unable to be competitive with foreign imports unless they are allowed to continue these cruel practises. Surely the correct answer is for the government to ban the importation of any meat that was not raised under welfare practises that are the same or better than those in the UK. Super cheap meat should not exist as raising sentient creatures as quickly as possible at the lowest cost is never going to be good for the animals.
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Exactly this, the government are not helping the farmers in this country at all ..although I welcome better animal welfare I still feel they are only announcing this with such fanfare to gain votes. I still don’t believe that they will carry out all of the things they are promising.. they promised to look after poorer pensioners before the election and their first step was to take away the fuel allowance which affected many people , after the backlash they overturned that and let them have the allowance this year but will claw it back from the better off pensioners, which is how they should have done it . They promised to stop the boats , what happened there? They promised no tax increases but kept the thresholds the same and increased the NI for employers so small businesses are struggling …. So forgive me for being sceptical , i think the trail hunting will go through because that’s a class thing but not sure about the rest of the animal welfare bill. I hope I’m wrong and they mean to action all of it
 
Non horsey people seem delighted, a couple of horsey people are screaming about how labour has ruined everything and is destroying farmers. I cant even be bothered to discuss it with them. They still cannot see why hunting has done this to itself.
 
It's also interesting that the very same government have removed the need for residential construction companies to support biodiversity when building on every last spot of spare land in the UK, and continue to push more and more houses to be built.... so it does feel quite contridictory that, while they're pushing the welfare for UK wildlife, they're also building on what would be their homes.
 
Trot_on said:
It's also interesting that the very same government have removed the need for residential construction companies to support biodiversity when building on every last spot of spare land in the UK, and continue to push more and more houses to be built.... so it does feel quite contridictory that, while they're pushing the welfare for UK wildlife, they're also building on what would be their homes.
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I guess it’s about vote winning and nothing to do with reality. Anyone know how you actually make trail hunting illegal ?
 
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