Animal welfare bill

mariew said:
Well if it's genuinely about welfare maybe they need to say all animals to be killed has to be pre stunned, religion or not 🤷‍♀️
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It's obviously a very sensitive topic politically. I've discussed ritual slaughter with Muslim friends (they were all fine with pre-stunning), but I've not had chance to have the same discussion recently with Jewish friends. Does anyone have further info on this?
 
Having read the section on trail hunting, it looks like they are defining it as 'where an animal-based scent trail is laid for dogs to follow.'

So how would this affect the harrier pack I went out with who, apparently, didn't use an animal-based scent but still described the activity as 'trail hunting'?

If it's just about banning the use of animal-based scent, I can't see a ban being all that effective...
 
Nancykitt said:
Having read the section on trail hunting, it looks like they are defining it as 'where an animal-based scent trail is laid for dogs to follow.'

So how would this affect the harrier pack I went out with who, apparently, didn't use an animal-based scent but still described the activity as 'trail hunting'?

If it's just about banning the use of animal-based scent, I can't see a ban being all that effective...
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It’s difficult to see how it will play out.

I suspect the fox packs will mimic the drag packs, but given the foxhounds won’t follow the non animal sent, they will be off the line rather frequently and still be after fox. The fox that will likely be encouraged to breed in nearby locations to the non animal scent trail.

As a country we will spend a fortune banning trail hunting, either policing it or not, and meanwhile the hunts will be exploiting the loop holes in a similar way that the politicians exploit their expenses 💁‍♀️
 
Everyone knows that the foxhunting hunts will find ways to circumvent any restrictions on their antics. Simply banning the use of animal scent to lay trails won’t work, they’ll pretend to be following a synthetic trail while carrying on as they always have done.

My money’s on a radical banning of hunting any ‘laid trails’ of any flavour, natural or synthetic, to stop the naughty hunts in their tracks. That’s why drag and bloodhound packs are under real threat, they may well get taken out too.

Hunting has sabbed itself, it could have survived if it had just followed the law.
 
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Nancykitt said:
Having read the section on trail hunting, it looks like they are defining it as 'where an animal-based scent trail is laid for dogs to follow.'

So how would this affect the harrier pack I went out with who, apparently, didn't use an animal-based scent but still described the activity as 'trail hunting'?

If it's just about banning the use of animal-based scent, I can't see a ban being all that effective...
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I really don't think they (Gvt/LACS) are interested in the foot hunts. They think hunting is a pursuit of the rich, who can afford to keep horses(!) and that is what they want to stop.
 
When is this likely to happen? Assuming it does? I expect there will be big turn outs for Boxing Day meets this year!
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
I really don't think they (Gvt/LACS) are interested in the foot hunts. They think hunting is a pursuit of the rich, who can afford to keep horses(!) and that is what they want to stop.
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Do you think this class war will continue if all hunting is banned?

Will they start sabbing the local golf club? Hold demos at cricket pavillions?
Maybe even protest at the local bridge club?

Most people I know who don't support hunting couldn't care less about rich people or what they can afford.
But they are disgusted at killing an animal for sport.
 
lizziebell said:
Thats ok. You’d be amazed at how many people in this country who support trail hunting do not understand that fox (or animal based) scent is being used.
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I think I was under the impression that they all used fox scent? Or that they mixed them indiscriminately? I suppose I hadn't thought that you'd have to train your pack to focus on one scent (or would you - the people I know who do scentwork train their dogs to several scents. I don't really know enough to know if that would work with a pack).

The trail vs drag just doesn't seem to be a distinction here - the local hunt here says that they are a drag hunt, and that drag hunts "usually" use fox urine!

Anyway! I am not really on topic any more. Thank you for the clarification.
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
I really don't think they (Gvt/LACS) are interested in the foot hunts. They think hunting is a pursuit of the rich, who can afford to keep horses(!) and that is what they want to stop.
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The foot packs will very much be covered by the same legalisation, and rightly so, they are as bad as the mounted packs. Worse possibly, as they can sneak out more under the radar than mounted packs.

Handily highlighted by the Coniston Foxhounds fell pack incident of a few weeks ago. All caught on anti drone footage digging out a fox on a fell side and throwing the fox to the hounds. 7 arrests so far.

www.news.cumbria.police.uk

Arrests made following illegal fox hunting activity report in Ambleside

www.news.cumbria.police.uk www.news.cumbria.police.uk
 
moosea said:
Do you think this class war will continue if all hunting is banned?

Will they start sabbing the local golf club? Hold demos at cricket pavillions?
Maybe even protest at the local bridge club?

Most people I know who don't support hunting couldn't care less about rich people or what they can afford.
But they are disgusted at killing an animal for sport.
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No, I think they will go after shooting next, then racing and very likely fishing last. I would support a ban on sports fishing but because fish aren't fluffy and it's not seen as 'rich man's sport' despite the cost of the equipment, LACS aren't bothered.

Eta, just to be clear, I do not and never have hunted.
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
No, I think they will go after shooting next, then racing and very likely fishing last. I would support a ban on sports fishing but because fish aren't fluffy and it's not seen as 'rich man's sport' despite the cost of the equipment, LACS aren't bothered.

Eta, just to be clear, I do not and never have hunted.
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I doubt they will ever ban fishing as it’s seen as an “ordinary person “ sport , although I must admit I don’t see it as different to fox hunting but the fish aren’t pretty and fluffy . The only hunting I ever did was drag hunting as I have never wanted to see a fox killed… on the other hand i hate what foxes have done to my friends pet hens recently and our yard hens many years ago so I think their numbers should be controlled but not sure how
 
If we are going to stop caged Hens and farrowing crates (I do agree with this proposal) are we going to stop imported animal products produced in such conditions or is this another kick in the teeth for UK Farmers?

The Public are very happy to get behind animal Welfare rulings until it hits them in the pocket!

I also am right behind banning puppy farming but I see this as impossible to police. There are a few good ideas in there but some of them will be incredibly difficult to pull off.

I also agree that if we're going to be hot on animal welfare then Halal/Kosher should not be exempted though it's a can of worms for sure!
 
People only care about animal welfare when it suits them.

Beauty products tested on animals.

Rat traps, slug killer, sticky fly traps.

Sucking spiders up the hoover.

Cheap imported meat of misery.

People are very quick to spit venom at those who hunt, without taking a look in the mirror at themselves first.
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
No, I think they will go after shooting next, then racing and very likely fishing last. I would support a ban on sports fishing but because fish aren't fluffy and it's not seen as 'rich man's sport' despite the cost of the equipment, LACS aren't bothered.

Eta, just to be clear, I do not and never have hunted.
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Racing won't be touched, far too much revenue would be lost.
 
Not all trail hunts have been breaking the law. If you have a pack of hounds galloping across the countryside they are bound to disturb foxes and deer, they live there after all. Not all the foxes filmed by the Sabs are being hunted, they are just getting out of the way. There have not been many prosecutions at all, at lot is heresay, not facts. If someone tells you often enough that trail hunts are hunting foxes then it gets believed.

From the start the legislation was deeply flawed, they should have stated what was allowed, not what was banned.

I am planning to become a member of the Clean Boot Hunting Association when it opens for membership. I have been reading some of the Facebook pages and I am most impressed with the New Forest Bloodhounds who even have a Quarry Club where their runners meet up every week for training session and a drink in the pub afterwards. They were originally a fox hunt, then trail and then changed to bloodhounds.

I just fear for the future of the foxhound as a breed.
 
Orangehorse said:
Not all trail hunts have been breaking the law. If you have a pack of hounds galloping across the countryside they are bound to disturb foxes and deer, they live there after all. Not all the foxes filmed by the Sabs are being hunted, they are just getting out of the way. There have not been many prosecutions at all, at lot is heresay, not facts. If someone tells you often enough that trail hunts are hunting foxes then it gets believed.

From the start the legislation was deeply flawed, they should have stated what was allowed, not what was banned.

I am planning to become a member of the Clean Boot Hunting Association when it opens for membership. I have been reading some of the Facebook pages and I am most impressed with the New Forest Bloodhounds who even have a Quarry Club where their runners meet up every week for training session and a drink in the pub afterwards. They were originally a fox hunt, then trail and then changed to bloodhounds.

I just fear for the future of the foxhound as a breed.
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Problem is even one hunt breaking the law, which we know has happened, isn't acceptable. The NF Bloodhounds are one example of just how easy it is to move with the times with a bit of an open mind and future proofing. If other hunts had been more open to change and doing things the right way, this conversation may not be happening.
 
teapot said:
Problem is even one hunt breaking the law, which we know has happened, isn't acceptable. The NF Bloodhounds are one example of just how easy it is to move with the times with a bit of an open mind and future proofing. If other hunts had been more open to change and doing things the right way, this conversation may not be happening.
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I agree with you really. Years ago, long before the ban I thought that the future of hunting had to be an artificial scent (and the hunt offering fox destruction services) simply as England has become too built up, built over, more roads, less countryside.

I love the foxhounds though, as a breed.
 
ihatework said:
Trail hunting are the foxhound packs who are mostly still foxhunting behind a smokescreen.

Drag/bloods have never hunted fox, different hound breed and they hunt a genuine trail
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Pearlsacarolsinger said:
And in fact every hunt could change the scent that their hounds follow, which is what I hope they do.
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In my experience,many trail hunt packs already use a different trail scent. Fox urine costs money and it's extraction for sale is totally abhorrent to most people. Some packs will use human wee which is free and easily acquired, others will use stinking dead fox marinade watered down: acquired from shot foxes. I've literally never heard of a hunt purchasing fox scent. Dead fox is a different smell to live quarry but other scents are entirely possible. The reason natural scent was allowed was because it was a recognition of the compromise needed to get the HA through and because many hunters did not want foxhounds to lose their way of working. The assertion that all trail hunts are hunting foxes is ridiculous, inaccurate and unfair.
 
palo1 said:
In my experience,many trail hunt packs already use a different trail scent. Fox urine costs money and it's extraction for sale is totally abhorrent to most people. Some packs will use human wee which is free and easily acquired, others will use stinking dead fox marinade watered down: acquired from shot foxes. I've literally never heard of a hunt purchasing fox scent. Dead fox is a different smell to live quarry but other scents are entirely possible. The reason natural scent was allowed was because it was a recognition of the compromise needed to get the HA through and because many hunters did not want foxhounds to lose their way of working. The assertion that all trail hunts are hunting foxes is ridiculous, inaccurate and unfair.
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So are you saying foxhounds would easily and readily follow, for example, aniseed scent? Would that not make a bit of a mockery of these long lines of specifically bred hounds? (BTW I’m not sure I or anyone has mentioned purchasing fox scent, is that a Versace or Dior bottle?!)
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
But it makes a good story and allows "animal lovers" to feel good about themselves.
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I’m actually on the fence re hunting. I have no desire to go out and kill foxes but I can see the wider picture and experience the huge benefits of a countryside community.

What I can hand on heart say is my local hunt is hunting fox. And their unlawful behaviour will be spoiling it for any law abiding foxhound packs.
 
Orangehorse said:
Not all trail hunts have been breaking the law. If you have a pack of hounds galloping across the countryside they are bound to disturb foxes and deer, they live there after all. Not all the foxes filmed by the Sabs are being hunted, they are just getting out of the way. There have not been many prosecutions at all, at lot is heresay, not facts. If someone tells you often enough that trail hunts are hunting foxes then it gets believed.

From the start the legislation was deeply flawed, they should have stated what was allowed, not what was banned.

I am planning to become a member of the Clean Boot Hunting Association when it opens for membership. I have been reading some of the Facebook pages and I am most impressed with the New Forest Bloodhounds who even have a Quarry Club where their runners meet up every week for training session and a drink in the pub afterwards. They were originally a fox hunt, then trail and then changed to bloodhounds.

I just fear for the future of the foxhound as a breed.
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There have been prosecutions against nearly FIFTY different hunts so its enough of them. Nothing has been done by their governing body, well, except being caught on video advising how to avoid being prosecuted for hunting.

https://www.huntsabs.org.uk/hunting-act-convictions/
 
From the useless Countryside Alliance themselves. They reckon the scent trail hunts allegedly lay for hounds to follow is based on fox urine.

www.countryside-alliance.org

Countryside Alliance guide to trail-hunting

The Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Hunting provides a guide to trail-hunting.
www.countryside-alliance.org www.countryside-alliance.org

Get your stories straight, people.

Q: WHAT SCENT IS USED FOR THE TRAIL? ​

A: Most foxhound packs continue to use an ethically sourced quarry-based scent based on fox urine. The hounds have been traditionally bred to follow this scent and they know what they are seeking. Usually this, rather than an artificial scent, prevents offering the hounds an element of choice which could lead them to deviate onto the scent of other quarry species.
 
Jenko109 said:
People only care about animal welfare when it suits them.

Beauty products tested on animals.

Rat traps, slug killer, sticky fly traps.

Sucking spiders up the hoover.

Cheap imported meat of misery.

People are very quick to spit venom at those who hunt, without taking a look in the mirror at themselves first.
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Agree, if the gov are so into animal welfare then they need to stop animal food imports from the countries that have low animal welfare and still use the old fashioned methods , but the people who are up in arms about the sweet fluffy foxes are quite happy to buy imported stuff over British. As an example as far as I know danish bacon is produced with low welfare standards so I always look for British bred but it’s a bit of a hunt as danish bacon is always more visible…, I bet the general public never think about buying British because it may be a bit more expensive . It takes me ages to find the British bred stuff but I won’t buy any imports so if I can’t find British I go without …
 
palo1 said:
The assertion that all trail hunts are hunting foxes is ridiculous, inaccurate and unfair.
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Unfortunately enough of them have been that they have tarnished the reputation of all.

I've said over & over that anyone who enjoys trail hunting needed to come down like a tonne of bricks on those not following the law - but they didn't and it will be banned as a result.

I'm just hoping the devil in the detail leaves the bloodhounds & registered drag hound packs alone.
 
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