Another loose dog incident at an event. Time to ban dogs?

[WandaMare]

This, I actually don't understand how they've got away with it so long and why they haven't been instructed to ban dogs already.

Well don't most things come back to money. Maybe they think attendance will be lower if no dogs allowed for events which people pay to attend. From the post I did above, it sounds as though they have sought feedback from their members, the (overwhelming) majority of whom want to be able to take their dogs to events, these are the people who are paying to be members and paying to enter the competitions. It puts them in a difficult position if their members vote to allow dogs and then they ban them. I don't think its perhaps as easy to resolve as it might seem. I'm not a member of BE but it would be useful to hear from someone who has maybe been part of their discussions on this subject.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Another still .



Bloke in red seems to have run onto the course to try to stop the loose dogs, before losing control of his own dog.

To reiterate, the competitor with the loose dogs was very contrite and full of apologies. She was fined an unspecified amount by the organisers, and the fine will be donated to a charity of the rider’s choice.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Those of you who suggested a fine. How would you propose they enforce it?

You can’t.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Before I had a dog I’d probably be fine with a ban but have always thought bans such a blunt tool. It punishes everyone not just those who are irresponsible. One bad accident would be one too many though so no easy answer.
I took my dog to Hickstead last year and he enjoyed it as he got a lot of fuss off people which is his favourite thing. We were mainly by the showing arenas and avoided the shopping though. He’d love Badminton but I probably wouldn’t take him. Cost of dog care isn’t a major issue unless you’ve got to kennel multiple dogs. I guess High level competitors are away a lot though so naturally keep their dogs with them.

 

[Rowreach]

Well don't most things come back to money. Maybe they think attendance will be lower if no dogs allowed for events which people pay to attend. From the post I did above, it sounds as though they have sought feedback from their members, the (overwhelming) majority of whom want to be able to take their dogs to events, these are the people who are paying to be members and paying to enter the competitions. It puts them in a difficult position if their members vote to allow dogs and then they ban them. I don't think its perhaps as easy to resolve as it might seem. I'm not a member of BE but it would be useful to hear from someone who has maybe been part of their discussions on this subject.

Yeah my point is that it's not just up to BE or EI, it's more a general H&S issue, and I'm surprised that with so many incidents they can even get insured tbh. Take any other sport and ask yourself if the organisers would accept the risk of animals running on to the track, course or court, potentially causing accident, injury to participants, inconvenience, effecting scores and so on, and then wonder why horse sport (cross country in particular) is different.

 

[{97702}]

Another still .

View attachment 54864

Bloke in red seems to have run onto the course to try to stop the loose dogs, before losing control of his own dog.

To reiterate, the competitor with the loose dogs was very contrite and full of apologies. She was fined an unspecified amount by the organisers, and the fine will be donated to a charity of the rider’s choice.

I’m sure she was, but is a fine really sufficient? I would say she should be banned, judging by the strength of feeling about the H&S implications of these sort of incidents shown on this thread

 

[ycbm]

.

I do however think people need to think in terms of feasibility of the sport. I'm plucking numbers out of the air here but lets say 30% of those volunteers have dogs and can't bring them, maybe 10% will selflessly make other arrangements for them, we're still 20% down on volunteers. And we all know nobody's inundated with them. The event either doesn't run or has to use paid staff, upping costs. Either way, in the long run it's damaging to an already struggling sport.

I've volunteered for BE numerous times. I've never seen a volunteer with a dog. I've done xc warm up, fence judge, dressage marshall.

 

[stormox]

Maybe they should allow dogs- but their owners would need to buy them a ticket.....

 

[ihatework]

I’ve done a number of volunteer roles and there are a small proportion of volunteers that bring dogs, usually XC fence judges, but not always.
I took mine once but only because my daycare let me down. It was a long and miserable day for her essentially being tied up for 8 hours solid. So irrespective of being allowed or not, as a volunteer I try not to take the dog anyway.

However as a competitor/owner I would be very unhappy on a blanket ban on dogs on site. Mine would come to most regular events and it would be a pita to have that banned. I’d manage, but for people for whom Eventing is the day job I could imagine the outcry!

The incidents time and time again are on the XC course. That is, I suppose where the chase instinct kicks in. This is a safety issue and just because no one has been killed yet, doesn’t mean it won’t happen in future.

Id therefore support a ban of dogs on the XC course while competition is live.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I’m sure she was, but is a fine really sufficient? I would say she should be banned, judging by the strength of feeling about the H&S implications of these sort of incidents shown on this thread

Whilst I am more interested in an outright ban on dogs at events going forwards, what would be a sufficiently strong deterrent in the interim? These are just my musings.

All of :-

A large fine.

DQ’d from any placings already accrued at the event.

Banned from taking further part at the event.

A ban of x months from being able to take part in future BE events.

 

[Goldenstar]

Strange I would Say ime about a third fence judges bring a dog .
Heres another idea give riders who offend community service loose dog on course twenty sessions fence jumping all day that would make them take notice .

 

[AnShanDan]

I'd be absolutely furious if I was connected to that rider at Richmond, and we've all seen it happen before. I understand that some people at events feel they can't leave their dogs all day but there has to be a solution. Who is liable when a really serious accident does happen? The event, the owner of the dog??
I love dogs and have always had them but I don't take them to shows or events.

 

[Cortez]

I judge quite a bit, dressage, hunters, that sort of thing. I wouldn't dream of bringing my dog/dogs to any of those, nor would I bring them to an event, or a race meeting. It's a wonder that there hasn't already been a serious accident or fatality to either dog/horse/rider.

 

[Lexi_]

I can’t think of many volunteer FJs at our local events who bring their dogs. To me it feels more common at the bigger ones we travel to (Barbury, Blenheim etc) where I can think of 4 or 5 regular couples who bring theirs. Maybe that’s because they also travel to them and it’s a lot more faff to find dog sitters for a few days than it is to get someone to pop in at lunch? ??‍

Also perhaps this is a 2020 one off and it’ll settle down if we get back to a full calendar but all I’ve been reading is that events are oversubscribed with volunteers. If that remains the same, losing a few who won’t/can’t leave their dogs at home won’t be the death of the sport that some people seem to think.

Personally a ban wouldn’t bother me. I don’t like dogs and I’d much rather volunteer without badly-behaved dogs bounding up to me and jumping all over the place.

A more sensible compromise would be dogs on leads allowed at events, but you leave them on the lorry when you go course walking. Removes most of the risk, doesn’t piss off everyone.

 

[Goldenstar]

I’ve fence judged at BE events and some people have no respect. They’ll duck under the tapes and wonder down the course and let their dogs off the lead to cool off in the water whilst there are competitors on the course. You can blow your whistle until blue in the face for all the notice they’ll take. One TA told me he saw a small dog’s head torn completely off when a horse galloped into it’s extendable lead.

Awful.
thats another thing to ban extendable leads once a competition has started .
I hate them with a passion .
It is a lack of respect competitors need to be more aware more professional and the powers that be need to on it more .
I think they should examine if fence judges should be instructed to immediately stop horses if a dog is loose you could argue they ought to stopped that rider but under the current way that takes time.
that rider should have been stopped perhaps it all happened too quickly .
Stopping everyone every time a dog was loose would apply peer pressure and wake the riders up a bit up a bit , riders are often the offenders .

 

[Magnetic Sparrow]

Do what everybody else does when leaving a dog for travel: kennels, or get someone to walk it.

Cheers for that, you want me to pay to travel to volunteer, then pay to get my dog looked after. Like that is going to happen.

 

[Arzada]

totally agree and not just at horse events. Not all of the public like dogs and certainly don't want them running up to them mounted on a horse or not. I hate dogs running up to me or people who just let their dogs meander over to me. If you have a dog keep it on a lead in all public places. No one can possibly know their dog is going to be safe with a galloping horse. There is too much potential for an accident to both horse and rider. If you cannot be sure it won't slip the lead leave it at home. Dogs are a luxury, no one has to be inconvenienced by other people and their dog keeping hobby. It is not just in the show ring or a cc course. There are similar incidents everyday with dogs chasing ridden horses.

If there is a risk of lead slipping anchor the dog to you by a harness onto a waist belt in addition to it's normal lead. If the dog doesn't pull the harness will be loose at all times. If it does pull then the public probably need the extra security of the harness and waist lead.
If you want/need to go to a horse competition it is hardly going to kill the dog if it is left at home for a day. Better than killing a horse or worse still a rider.
Dogs off lead are bad enough in normal life. I had one try and pull me off my bike, nasty little sod.

It is surprising that the spectators let them loose at horse events. If you go to one of these events it must be because you like/ride horses. If that is the case then you must be well aware that it takes very little to spook at horse or make it bolt.

Thank you paddy555. I have previously posted of how unsafe I am cycling the shared off road trails. I now ride my nearest and most favourite trail very early in the morning and then route home on the roads where none of the following is absolutely guaranteed not to happen. I have been attacked by a Doberman which ran alongside me lunging at my leg. Those incisors are terrifying. The owner eventually heard it and called it. It bit the real wheel as it went and I carried on. Should have gone back - the owner was in a field, not even on the trail. Run into by a very large 'oodle' which ignored it's owner's 'No'. I had stopped bike and stayed upright. No-one apologized as they walked past. The worst, taken down by a Springer which came out of ditch, didn't even touch the brakes, bike stopped dead and I went over the handlebars and rolled along the tarmac. I didn't see or anticipate expect a dog as I went slowly past the owners who had another dog on lead with them. They were of course apologetic and offered to pay for the damage to my new bike. How could I say that the scarred but still working brifters would be at least £300. More recently a little 'oodle came flying diagonally across the corner of a 90 degree bend and I would have been down again had this dog not been quick thinking and moving and rerouting. And the fact I was travelling very slowly for the tight bend. The owner was some way ahead of the dog and hadn't alerted me that her dog was following. No lead visible. These are just the most relevant. There are too many off lead dogs doing their own thing as their owners walk ahead oblivious. I am a considerate cyclist, going slowly past people, stopping for dogs, children etc, thanking people as I pass etc etc. I don't need any of the above and at my age with osteopenia I feel very vulnerable. I really don't want to stop doing something I love, which keeps me fit and healthy, takes me to gorgeous places all because of the complete lack of consideration by dog owners who are not in control of their dog and who have no intention of sharing space safely.

And let's not get started on owners who allow their dogs to attack wildlife. I've also posted previously about that too.

And about the boy who died falling off a cliff in Cornwall when running to get away from a dog which was approaching him

 

[Tiddlypom]

Cheers for that, you want me to pay to travel to volunteer, then pay to get my dog looked after. Like that is going to happen.

Don’t volunteer then *shrugs*

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

That's the thing it's not just equine events but very few people seem to be able to control their dogs full stop!

I went out waking round the trail round the Loch yesterday and had a labrador jump up at me and bite my sleeves. The woman was jogging along, dog off the lead and it totally failed to recall to her. I stopped and clutched my hands up under my chin but that then encouraged it to jump up at my face. It must have a thing for hoody sleeves! She jogged over in her own sweet time, grabbed the dog by the collar and just carried on her way. No appologies, no seeing if I was ok etc. She just set off again and let the dog go again.

And people wonder why I hate dogs ...

 

[PapaverFollis]

The behaviour of other dog owners generally upsets me so much because it will lead to rules that we all have to follow... like dogs on lead in all public places... that the idiots still won't follow. No-one is perfect of course but some general control isn't *that* hard to establish.

 

[Orangehorse]

As for enforcing or fining someone, I'm sure there are enough ex army personnel who are very capable of giving someone a good telling off.

In the clip we have been watching, the dogs belonged to a competitor, so why didn't an official, or another fence judge tell her to put them on a lead, they must have seen her walking the course. Of course she was very apologetic, but saying "sorry" isn't any good if there is an accident. The horse that was chased was a saint, he just kept his mind on the job.

 

[ester]

Where's the video? it doesn't come up for me on the HH report

 

[Henry02]

BE put this on their website in June of this year:

'What about dogs?
Overwhelming feedback has been that you still want to be able to take your dogs to an event. We have listened, and the next release of guidance will reflect this. Whilst there is a risk, in terms of handling of loose dogs it is felt this can be sufficiently managed on event by the organiser and officials to minimise this'.

So their feedback is out of kilter with opinions on this thread. All the more reason for those who want a ban or more restrictions to get in touch with them, things won't change unless people speak up.

after all the “entitled” riders were up in arms how they couldn’t possibly enter an event and not take Fido with them... it would absolutely ruin their year out competing if dog wasn’t allowed to be left at home.

along with all the whingers that “I can’t take my three children to the competition”. It’s not fair I should be entitled to take them as I’ve paid my membership fee. I’m just going to sneak them in instead.

 

[Fred66]

BE have asked their members about dogs. The response was apparently overwhelmingly in favour of dogs being allowed. As it’s membership and entry fees that fund BE events then this seems to be the fair thing to do.
Maybe BE should increase the penalties, so a fine and DQ on the day if a competitor, with second offence being suspended for the year.
If you don’t like events with dogs then take up dressage or SJ.?

 

[KEK]

I'm really surprised dogs are allowed at these competitions. I compete in dog competitions here and ONLY competing dogs are allowed on the grounds!

 

[Tiddlypom]

Where's the video? it doesn't come up for me on the HH report

HH didn’t include the video in their report, although it was was mentioned in the title, but SPD tracked it down.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZS5U5cYo/

Was it this one?

Eta - sorry to just do link, I can't work out how to put video in post.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Yeah my point is that it's not just up to BE or EI, it's more a general H&S issue, and I'm surprised that with so many incidents they can even get insured tbh. Take any other sport and ask yourself if the organisers would accept the risk of animals running on to the track, course or court, potentially causing accident, injury to participants, inconvenience, effecting scores and so on, and then wonder why horse sport (cross country in particular) is different.

The H&S aspect and resultant impact on insurance liability is the only way that this is going to be stopped. There is so much resistance within the eventing community to a ban on dogs that it wil take a rider fatality to change things - a beheaded small dog is apparently enough not a serious enough issue to warrant change.

As you say, maybe the insurers are unaware of these incidents and that dogs ever get loose at events and cause issues. Time for them to be made aware, methinks...

 

[WandaMare]

after all the “entitled” riders were up in arms how they couldn’t possibly enter an event and not take Fido with them... it would absolutely ruin their year out competing if dog wasn’t allowed to be left at home.

along with all the whingers that “I can’t take my three children to the competition”. It’s not fair I should be entitled to take them as I’ve paid my membership fee. I’m just going to sneak them in instead.

You re not a fan of the eventers then ?

 

[catkin]

However as a competitor/owner I would be very unhappy on a blanket ban on dogs on site. Mine would come to most regular events and it would be a pita to have that banned. I’d manage, but for people for whom Eventing is the day job I could imagine the outcry!

Most jobs do not allow pet dogs at work.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Most jobs do not allow pet dogs at work.

I'm very fortunate that mine does There are 3 dogs who come in, all very well behaved.

As to dogs at events, I'd like to see no spectators dogs, then competitors and owners dogs restricted to horsebox park 30 mins before start time and kept there till 30 mins after the last horse has finished. Over every single day of the event. Whatever the event is.