Anti bark collars

dree said:
There is stress everywhere, but I am the last person I want to cause my dog stress. For example, we have to teach our dogs out of sight stays, which many dogs find stressful, as they are left with about 40 other dogs.....dogs they have never met. It's my job to teach the stays well enough to cause as little stress as poss, but by leaving my dog, that alone causes stress. Hope I've made myself clear.

Also, my dogs are well socialised as pups from 7/8 weeks to accept everything I can get them to meet. But some pups find some things more stressful than others. I own confident, happy dogs, but one of them does not like stays because the dogs next to her could be giving off aggressive vibes. I can't do anything but hope that my dog has been taught well enough to cope with that particular stress.
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Or, she isn't confident enough to be away from you, out of sight. Insecurity is generally why dogs break downstays.
 
BBP said:
I quite like the idea of leaving my dog to watch webinars whilst I go up to do the horses, he’s a collie, they are meant to be smart so I’m pretty sure he could learn lots of good stuff. Maybe recall via webinar? Would it be instead of me spending time training him or would there be homework I would have to help him with?
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Could I try a winebar? I'm sure that could only help. Especially with this thread. :D
 
The device is a little contradictory;
It's states it will 'keep your dog calm' and 'let your cute dog chase, stay excited and energetic'.
It also has a motion detector so when the dog moves (due to separation anxiety, cos dogs don't move when there are not anxious?) it throws a that out.
Sorry to derail the thread but what a lot of tosh.
Sandstone1 said:
It does take some equipment but you can use a camera and something like the trick and train device to train the Dog when you are not in the room.https://www.amazon.co.uk/SKYMEE-Cam...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=J1SK5433PZR2G3H07MR3
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And to be pedantic you are remotely operating a device that is then training your dog.
 
There are many different types of them and I just picked out one. It may not be the best. Yes it is at treat dispenser.
With the better ones it has a remote control. You would be watching the Dog although outside the room.
When the Dog is doing the required behaviour you reward the Dog using the remote control.
This is reinforcing what you want.
It is positive reinforcement.
Not getting in to a argument about it. Just pointing out that you can use positive methods rather than negative when you are not in the room.
 
twiggy2 said:
The device is a little contradictory;
It's states it will 'keep your dog calm' and 'let your cute dog chase, stay excited and energetic'.
It also has a motion detector so when the dog moves (due to separation anxiety, cos dogs don't move when there are not anxious?) it throws a that out.
Sorry to derail the thread but what a lot of tosh.

And to be pedantic you are remotely operating a device that is then training your dog.
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It's maybe not the best device to have shown but in principle you watch the dog when you get the required behaviour you reward it. Instead of punishing what you don't want.
It's not tosh, it's simply using positive instead of negative reinforcement. Anti bark collars are negative.
People just need to be a bit more open minded. Wouldn't you rather reward the good than punish the bad?
 
Sandstone1 said:
It's maybe not the best device to have shown but in principle you watch the dog when you get the required behaviour you reward it. Instead of punishing what you don't want.
It's not tosh, it's simply using positive instead of negative reinforcement. Anti bark collars are negative.
People just need to be a bit more open minded. Wouldn't you rather reward the good than punish the bad?
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Anti bark collars are actually positive, positive punishment as they 'give' the dog something. But I do understand what you mean.
Personally I think if the dog settles and everytime they do they then hear the click and whir of a device that drops a treat it is counterproductive as the dog then get up excited for a treat, so dogs settles-machine excites it, if this happens over and over again the dog is likely to go to a spot, lie down but not settle as it's waiting for the treat.
I personally believe the old fashioned way of actually interacting and training animals is the best, yes, even when teaching them to be left.
Eg. Teach dog to use something to occupy itself in your presence but without your interaction and then grow on that. It's long winded to go into so I won't.
Basically they have to learn to be alone the machine is not teaching that it is trying to teach dogs that machines are just as good as the true company they crave or need, we need to teach the it's ok to be without us not try and replace us with something else.
 
twiggy2 said:
Anti bark collars are actually positive, positive punishment as they 'give' the dog something. But I do understand what you mean.
Personally I think if the dog settles and everytime they do they then hear the click and whir of a device that drops a treat it is counterproductive as the dog then get up excited for a treat, so dogs settles-machine excites it, if this happens over and over again the dog is likely to go to a spot, lie down but not settle as it's waiting for the treat.
I personally believe the old fashioned way of actually interacting and training animals is the best, yes, even when teaching them to be left.
Eg. Teach dog to use something to occupy itself in your presence but without your interaction and then grow on that. It's long winded to go into so I won't.
Basically they have to learn to be alone the machine is not teaching that it is trying to teach dogs that machines are just as good as the true company they crave or need, we need to teach the it's ok to be without us not try and replace us with something else.
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Yes. Anti bark collars are positive punishment as I said in a previous post. However the point I'm making is that is is punishment so it's negative to the dog.
I'm not saying the trick and train type device is great. It is however positive reinforcement not positive punishment that the the anti bark collar is.
 
Sandstone1 said:
Wouldn't you rather reward the good than punish the bad?
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Life is tough sometimes, we all have to go through negative experiences and come out the other side. Telling our dogs otherwise is a lie, and letting someone/something else be the source of any negativity can make for insecure, clingy dogs. To me, it's like expecting a teacher at school to parent your child.
'Little Johnny was given lines for being bold, but it was the nasty teacher who gave him lines, not me, I'm lovely'.
 
I am not debating who should use what, I believe everything used in the correct way has a place.
I have never seen an anti bark collar used correctly but have seen them used in a way that has causes great distress.
I do not however believe that remote treat dispensers can be used in an effective way to treat separation anxiety and barking when alone even at triggers is usually a sign of separation anxiety.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Life is tough sometimes, we all have to go through negative experiences and come out the other side. Telling our dogs otherwise is a lie, and letting someone/something else be the source of any negativity can make for insecure, clingy dogs. To me, it's like expecting a teacher at school to parent your child.
'Little Johnny was given lines for being bold, but it was the nasty teacher who gave him lines, not me, I'm lovely'.
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Exactly why I don't like anti bark collars!
I'm not saying that the trick and train thing is right at all. Someone said you can't train a dog when not in the room. You can use it to reinforce a positive behaviour just as you use the collar to positively punish a behaviour. I actually don't like either but they are different sides to the same coin.
 
CorvusCorax said:
This isn't a comment on collars, but judging by some comments, are we at the stage now where a dog has to be shielded from any unpleasant experience?
And when unpleasantness comes from an extraneous source, and we as owners have not taught our dogs to deal with low level stress, is that not the ultimate unfairness? We've sold them a big lie.

It's a big thing now to build resilience in our children, but apparently not in the animals we share our lives and homes with.
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I don't know if this is aimed at me but I thought I would try and explain myself better. I do not try and shield an animal from an unpleasant experience. But I do not see the point of using a spray collar if it is just set off by noise. If the dog wearing the collar is with another dog and the other dog barks, the collar dog gets sprayed and this is not teaching them anything, other than a loud noise gets them sprayed. That inconsistency is why I wouldn't want to use them. I do hope this makes sense.
 
YorksG said:
I don't understand how someone can say that the last thing they want to do is cause their dog stress and then describe a situation their dog finds stressful, which they deliberately put the dog in.
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Unfortunately, despite all Areas requesting the out of sight stays be removed from the exercises required, the KC will not remove them. So I am forced to place my dog in a situation I am not happy with.
 
dree said:
Unfortunately, despite all Areas requesting the out of sight stays be removed from the exercises required, the KC will not remove them. So I am forced to place my dog in a situation I am not happy with.
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I have to disagree, you could choose to not enter your dog in those competitions, thus avoiding putting the dog under stress, it is entirely within your control
 
I have no problem with using an antibark on a tough minded dog like this terrier. However, the problem is solved at the moment as it is colder so I can keep my back door shut. :-) Also she is now shut in until we go and let her out, so I don't have to listen to her at 5am.

As for dogs having to deal with stress, of course they have to, they cannot spend their whole life shut away from anything that raises their heart rate.
Now I know very little of obedience, as a competitive thing, but watching a beautiful active dog like a collie creep around at every twitch of the owners finger is no doubt impressive to some, but I would rather watch the same breed round up a flock of sheep the other side of a valley from their owner, confident and empowered in their abilities and doing what they were designed to do. I don't see how obedience can never cause a dog to be stressed. I get stressed watching it!
My dogs are gun dogs and they have to travel on a gun bus crammed in with other dogs and strange people, they aren't madly keen on it but they have absolute faith that they are going to have fun when we get there and that I would never ask them to do something that they couldn't. It is hard, IM untrained opinion, to seperate stress and excitement, both cause panting and tenseness, surely?
That is an off topic ramble - but hey it's my thread!:D
 
Blanche said:
I don't know if this is aimed at me but I thought I would try and explain myself better. I do not try and shield an animal from an unpleasant experience. But I do not see the point of using a spray collar if it is just set off by noise. If the dog wearing the collar is with another dog and the other dog barks, the collar dog gets sprayed and this is not teaching them anything, other than a loud noise gets them sprayed. That inconsistency is why I wouldn't want to use them. I do hope this makes sense.
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And it also would make the dog even more anxious than it was before. It may even make it aggressive towards other dogs that bark, since the consquences for the dog with the collar on have been unpleasant. And the dog will equate barking = unpleasant consequences for itself.
 
YorksG said:
I have to disagree, you could choose to not enter your dog in those competitions, thus avoiding putting the dog under stress, it is entirely within your control
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Yes, that's true. But having well-trained and well-balanced dogs, we have managed this situation now for 40 years.
 
Clodagh said:
I have no problem with using an antibark on a tough minded dog like this terrier. However, the problem is solved at the moment as it is colder so I can keep my back door shut. :) Also she is now shut in until we go and let her out, so I don't have to listen to her at 5am.

As for dogs having to deal with stress, of course they have to, they cannot spend their whole life shut away from anything that raises their heart rate.
Now I know very little of obedience, as a competitive thing, but watching a beautiful active dog like a collie creep around at every twitch of the owners finger is no doubt impressive to some, but I would rather watch the same breed round up a flock of sheep the other side of a valley from their owner, confident and empowered in their abilities and doing what they were designed to do. I don't see how obedience can never cause a dog to be stressed. I get stressed watching it!
My dogs are gun dogs and they have to travel on a gun bus crammed in with other dogs and strange people, they aren't madly keen on it but they have absolute faith that they are going to have fun when we get there and that I would never ask them to do something that they couldn't. It is hard, IM untrained opinion, to seperate stress and excitement, both cause panting and tenseness, surely?
That is an off topic ramble - but hey it's my thread!:D
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You have obviously never seen a good clicker-trained happy dog doing h/w. Creeping around does not exist in our training. I suggest you watch some Youtube vids of very good Ticket winners. Below is my husband's Ticket dog.
 

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CorvusCorax said:
Or, she isn't confident enough to be away from you, out of sight. Insecurity is generally why dogs break downstays.
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She is confident enough in me. But she is a very sweet, gentle dog who would rather move away from another dog that is giving off bad vibes. In ten years, she has never done this, so has obviously been taught well, and is confident that I will return in a couple of minutes and remove her from the situation. All our dogs do the Sit and Down stay with confidence, but every dog is different. Race is gentle and would rather avoid confrontation....Grouse would be....bring it on, mate, you're in for a surprise. (Neither dog breaks stays through insecurity.)
 
Blanche said:
I don't know if this is aimed at me but I thought I would try and explain myself better. I do not try and shield an animal from an unpleasant experience. But I do not see the point of using a spray collar if it is just set off by noise. If the dog wearing the collar is with another dog and the other dog barks, the collar dog gets sprayed and this is not teaching them anything, other than a loud noise gets them sprayed. That inconsistency is why I wouldn't want to use them. I do hope this makes sense.
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No, it was just a general point :)
 
. It is hard, IM untrained opinion, to seperate stress and excitement, both cause panting and tenseness, surely?
That is an off topic ramble - but hey it's my thread!:D[/QUOTE]

Stress and excitement are, of course, different. Stress causes much more than panting and tension. (Like a kid climbing all over a dog, poking it, etc.) That will cause a dog to show all the signs of tension.....wall eye, ears down, looking away, lip licking, eventual growling and trying to move away, etc.

Excitement could be chasing a ball (which is one of our dogs rewards) and means panting, bringing the ball back to be thrown again, bowing to owner to throw again, eyes bright and body language relaxed and happy.
 
dree said:
She is confident enough in me. But she is a very sweet, gentle dog who would rather move away from another dog that is giving off bad vibes. In ten years, she has never done this, so has obviously been taught well, and is confident that I will return in a couple of minutes and remove her from the situation. All our dogs do the Sit and Down stay with confidence, but every dog is different. Race is gentle and would rather avoid confrontation....Grouse would be....bring it on, mate, you're in for a surprise. (Neither dog breaks stays through insecurity.)
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How unfortunate that your dog ends up beside dogs giving off bad vibes in the down stay!

Do your dogs heel like that when the left hand is placed normally? Not clamped to the hip, I mean.
And is the answer to #63, 'tickets'?
 
dree said:
. It is hard, IM untrained opinion, to seperate stress and excitement, both cause panting and tenseness, surely?
That is an off topic ramble - but hey it's my thread!:D
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Stress and excitement are, of course, different. Stress causes much more than panting and tension. (Like a kid climbing all over a dog, poking it, etc.) That will cause a dog to show all the signs of tension.....wall eye, ears down, looking away, lip licking, eventual growling and trying to move away, etc.

Excitement could be chasing a ball (which is one of our dogs rewards) and means panting, bringing the ball back to be thrown again, bowing to owner to throw again, eyes bright and body language relaxed and happy.[/QUOTE]

I didn't explain myself well. I don't mean stress as in being climbed on by a child, I meant by perhaps being worried that they aren't going to do something. My middle bitch hates dogs sticking their nose up her rear end and gets stressed when she cannot get away from one doing it when she is in a confined place, she sits and pants, but no wall eye or licking, but it isn't excitement. When we unload she stresses that she might have missed something. When she sees a bird come down she stresses that I might send another dog. It isn't JUST excitement is what I am getting at.
 
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