Anti bark collars

dree said:
You have obviously never seen a good clicker-trained happy dog doing h/w. Creeping around does not exist in our training. I suggest you watch some Youtube vids of very good Ticket winners. Below is my husband's Ticket dog.
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She does look happy. And as though many treats have been used to achieve it. I have no problem with treat based training at all, but is she looking at your husband or a possible biscuit?
 
CorvusCorax said:
How unfortunate that your dog ends up beside dogs giving off bad vibes in the down stay!

Do your dogs heel like that when the left hand is placed normally? Not clamped to the hip, I mean.
And is the answer to #63, 'tickets'?
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Could be the Sit stay or the Down stay. Every dog is different. Perhaps because our dogs are different, other dogs don't approach them....I don't know. They may be beside dogs that are as nice and confident as they are.

IPO is where the arms are allowed to swing. In obedience, the left hand or arm is not allowed to move, so, yes, the left hand is kept on the hip area.

Is my answer to why I put them in stays winning a Ticket? Yes and no. I have won one Ticket in my life....same with my husband. We prefer happy dogs, and if we have happy dogs that happen to win a Ticket as well, then that's great. If they don't, we're not bothered. Their health and happiness is what we want....and hopefully achieve. (All dogs need to do stays....all through the classes....from Pre-Beginners, Beginners, Novice, A, B, C and Ticket.
 
Clodagh said:
She does look happy. And as though many treats have been used to achieve it. I have no problem with treat based training at all, but is she looking at your husband or a possible biscuit?
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He (the dog is a he :) ) is looking at my husband as he works. He knows at the end of the "work" he will get his reward, whether that is some treats or his ball or a mix of both. We tend to train with this manta in mind.....be unpredictable (with rewards and when they get them) always. In that way you can extend the h/w without giving a treat every few steps. You reward for the set-up, you reward for 10 steps of h/w, you reward for 50 steps, you go back and reward for the set-up of the h/w, you reward for 25, etc., etc., etc. Unpredictable rewards are a proven way to "sell" rewards to your dog. We also put a reward on the kitchen table, ask for a hand touch with no reward in hand, and reward after the hand touch. We extend the time of hand touch, and we also extend on to what the dog can do without a reward coming immediately. At least, that's the theory!! :)
 
ester said:
dree why isn't the hand allowed to move? signals or?
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Mainly because most judges will mark for extra commands. H/w now is more like dressage, which is why there are so many (ex-) horse people in the dog world. The aim is to promote a picture of team-work combined with drive and (for me) happiness, as well as lack of faults. I love it to bits. I'm in a wheelchair at the mo, but hoping to be out of it soon and hopefully start training my dogs again. In the mean-time, I just get to criticise my husband and his dogs!! :p:D

Edited to add....the lower classes are allowed extra commands, so can move their hand if they want to.
 
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so it stops sneaky commands? Only because I don't think I've seen IPO giving extra commands either particularly but they do look more normal!
 
ester said:
so it stops sneaky commands? Only because I don't think I've seen IPO giving extra commands either particularly but they do look more normal!
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That is obviously a matter of opinion. A swinging left arm can stop a dog from surging forward out of position.
 
dree said:
Mainly because most judges will mark for extra commands. H/w now is more like dressage, which is why there are so many (ex-) horse people in the dog world. The aim is to promote a picture of team-work combined with drive and (for me) happiness, as well as lack of faults. I love it to bits. I'm in a wheelchair at the mo, but hoping to be out of it soon and hopefully start training my dogs again. In the mean-time, I just get to criticise my husband and his dogs!! :p:D

Edited to add....the lower classes are allowed extra commands, so can move their hand if they want to.
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Interesting you say it is like dressage, as I am always amazed that horses look enthusiastic about entering an arena to b ehave in a thoroughly unnatural manner. Yet they appear to do it although most appear stressed most of the time.

I can't imagine a dog saying 'Yay today I get to walk at heel' and show energy, yet there you go your dog looks happy enough in your photo. Mine look keen when walking at heel, but it is because they are going to do something else. Animals constantly surprise me with their tolerance for our needs!
 
Sorry Dree, many of your posts imply a personal standard of perfection that most of us can only aspire to! We have four visiting dogs in our kennels who are extremely noisy atm. The worst offender had a water bark collar on for twelve hours and peace is restored. The stress is removed from our dogs, who are trained not be be excessively noisy but were wound up by the visitors. Treating, time and patience would not have worked as we would have been rewarding the unacceptable behaviour. We currently have our 12 in kennels plus four visitors, including entire dogs and a bitch in season.
We have trained literally hundreds of dogs ( & people!) over many years for pets and as gun dogs and have never used treats or clicker training but very occasionally have used a bark collar, or god forbid, an electric collar in a last chance scenario. We work up to six spaniels, labs or other gundogs in a very high pressure environment throughout the winter and I can confirm that treats do not form part of that! My very much pet lurchers with a high prey drive do know that if I say 'what's this?' as they think about chasing something, there's a treat in store...my husband thinks I've sold out to the 'fluffy bunny' brigade. Bark collars are NOT cruel and they can be useful tools in breaking a long ingrained habit ( see Levrier and George!) Lots of ways to skin a cat, as they say! Yes, I expect (am certain) the gundogs would do obedience to a fairly high standard with a quick conversion period but obedience always looks very pressurized and very controlled so absolutely does not appeal. Each to their own as they say!
 
suebou said:
Sorry Dree, many of your posts imply a personal standard of perfection that most of us can only aspire to! We have four visiting dogs in our kennels who are extremely noisy atm. The worst offender had a water bark collar on for twelve hours and peace is restored. The stress is removed from our dogs, who are trained not be be excessively noisy but were wound up by the visitors. Treating, time and patience would not have worked as we would have been rewarding the unacceptable behaviour. We currently have our 12 in kennels plus four visitors, including entire dogs and a bitch in season.
We have trained literally hundreds of dogs ( & people!) over many years for pets and as gun dogs and have never used treats or clicker training but very occasionally have used a bark collar, or god forbid, an electric collar in a last chance scenario. We work up to six spaniels, labs or other gundogs in a very high pressure environment throughout the winter and I can confirm that treats do not form part of that! My very much pet lurchers with a high prey drive do know that if I say 'what's this?' as they think about chasing something, there's a treat in store...my husband thinks I've sold out to the 'fluffy bunny' brigade. Bark collars are NOT cruel and they can be useful tools in breaking a long ingrained habit ( see Levrier and George!) Lots of ways to skin a cat, as they say! Yes, I expect (am certain) the gundogs would do obedience to a fairly high standard with a quick conversion period but obedience always looks very pressurized and very controlled so absolutely does not appeal. Each to their own as they say!
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As you say, each to their own. There are a quite a few gundogs in obedience now, including spaniels and labs and retrievers.....some of them are incredibly stylish and very happy in their work. I know people who do gundog work and things like e-collars are very much frowned upon. (Which is not surprising as no dog should be trained by fear (imo) and it's also against the law.) I am fortunate in that I can work with my dogs (or someone else's dog) 24 hours a day if necessary.....I love training dogs. Obedience is not pressurised or very controlled.....not amongst the people we train with anyway. The "old" way of force is happily disappearing. (And, btw, since dogs very much live "in the moment" (hence clicker training) the dog would not be being rewarded for barking.....in that second of reaching for the treat, the dog is not barking. :)
 
Can anyone tell me when e collars actually became illegal? I can find loads of references to say that they are going to become illegal but no dates to say when it happened.

Just curious...
 
All dog sports can be stressful for the dog. Of course there's an element of pressure/control. It's bloody tiring for a dog to hold itself like that, concentrate, move in different directions, be denied reward as the round goes on, etc etc. Almost all dog sports are an unnatural/stylised manipulation of natural instinct.
Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves. That's not a bad thing, stress is part of life.
Let's not pretend that it doesn't exist and let's admit that we take part in dog sports because we like it.
Let's not pretend there's no stress or pressure anywhere in dog training, because it's not true. Even competing indoors can blow a 'postively trained' dog's brain.
Let's admit that most dog sport people purposely select or breed dogs from certain lines, dogs they know they can manipulate into their own training style. Genetics is hugely important and a huge factor in successful results.
Otherwise anyone could go and get a St Bernard from a dog pound and make it a top agility dog, couldn't they?
((No need for any 'exception to the rule' story of an odd breed doing well in an unusual discipline, because...it's an exception to the rule))

We humans say we train 'positive only' to make ourselves feel better.
The dog doesn't care less what it is doing.

And can we stop turning threads into sales pitches for perfect/aspirational dog training/husbandry, please?
 
Levrier said:
I would doubt it will be soon, the state that Parliament is currently in!

It might be worth checking facts before you post in future perhaps, or simply confirming that they are your opinions and not facts 😊
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It is a fact. They are illegal in Scotland and in Wales and will be in England.That's not my opinion its a fact. I also don't need your permission to post facts or opinions but thanks for your comments.
 
CorvusCorax said:
All dog sports can be stressful for the dog. Of course there's an element of pressure/control. It's bloody tiring for a dog to hold itself like that, concentrate, move in different directions, be denied reward as the round goes on, etc etc. Almost all dog sports are an unnatural/stylised manipulation of natural instinct.
Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves. That's not a bad thing, stress is part of life.
Let's not pretend that it doesn't exist and let's admit that we take part in dog sports because we like it.
Let's not pretend there's no stress or pressure anywhere in dog training, because it's not true. Even competing indoors can blow a 'postively trained' dog's brain.
Let's admit that most dog sport people purposely select or breed dogs from certain lines, dogs they know they can manipulate into their own training style. Genetics is hugely important and a huge factor in successful results.
Otherwise anyone could go and get a St Bernard from a dog pound and make it a top agility dog, couldn't they?
((No need for any 'exception to the rule' story of an odd breed doing well in an unusual discipline, because...it's an exception to the rule))

We humans say we train 'positive only' to make ourselves feel better.
The dog doesn't care less what it is doing.

And can we stop turning threads into sales pitches for perfect/aspirational dog training/husbandry, please?
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Yes, h/w is an unnatural position for a dog to take......but that does NOT mean that there is any stress or pressure in the training or the actual competing. It must be a long time since you watched the cream of obedience work their dogs, especially those who never use compulsion.

As for picking certain lines, my hubby and I must be soft as shite, because our first dogs were rescues from a farm. One dog at 6 m/o used to flatten on to the floor if you lifted your arm......we re-trained him. He was a super dog. One of my first bitches came from horrific conditions....again from a farm.....you know.....those people whose dogs you like to see doing what they do best.....rounding up the sheep. And my second bitch was from a rescue bitch.....we didn't know she was in pup. (I used to take dogs from the vet, retrain and rehome.) I kept her pup and found she was genetically fear aggressive.....I had never seen that before. She qualified for Ticket and gained a few places in Ticket, including three thirds.

As for you last sentence, which I presume is aimed at me. When did discussing on a forum become a place for such arrogance and bitchiness? Because a lot of you are very, very good at that.

Edited to add. You also said:- "We humans say we train 'positive only' to make ourselves feel better.
The dog doesn't care less what it is doing."

I don't say it to make myself feel better....it's what I do. Maybe you feel guilty because you don't? Your dogs have to work, whether they want to or not....or you wouldn't dream of using an e-collar, which I personally find disgusting....and only someone with very little knowledge and no way of thinking "outside the box" would dream of using one. And the dog does care.....depending on how it is treated.....with kind-ness and compassion, or with a trainer's mind-set that the dog will do this......or else.
 
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So there's no pressure or stress at all in competitive obedience, collies don't dominate/have particular aptitude for the competitive obedience ring, and you're never done posting about what an amazing trainer you are and everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong, yet it's others who are arrogant. Gotcha....
 
CorvusCorax said:
So there's no pressure or stress at all in competitive obedience, collies don't dominate/have particular aptitude for the competitive obedience ring, and you're never done posting about what an amazing trainer you are and everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong, yet it's others who are arrogant. Gotcha....
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Dominate? Why should a collie dominate??? If you have presumed I'm an amazing trainer....I can only thank you for that. And yes, you are arrogant....been here a few years so think you own the place.
 
I think you misunderstood my use of the word 'dominate' :)

I haven't presumed, I'm commenting on your posting style :)

Been around a while, yes, but if you appear on a a forum and you rub multiple people with a diverse range of post history up the wrong way, it might not be the longer established posters who are the issue :)
 
dree said:
I don't say it to make myself feel better....it's what I do. Maybe you feel guilty because you don't? Your dogs have to work, whether they want to or not....or you wouldn't dream of using an e-collar, which I personally find disgusting....and only someone with very little knowledge and no way of thinking "outside the box" would dream of using one. And the dog does care.....depending on how it is treated.....with kind-ness and compassion, or with a trainer's mind-set that the dog will do this......or else.
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Sorry missed your edit. My dogs don't 'have' to work. I grew up with other people's rejects from the showring and I've happily retired dogs who just didn't want to be in the ring/competing. As it's not fair, otherwise. Points and prize cards don't mean that much to me.

I've made no comment whatsoever on the use of anti-bark or e-collars, just general points about pressure and stress, you must be confusing me with someone else.

I meant the dog doesn't care if it's competing or 'doing things' or not.

It's really quite offensive to insinuate that anyone who doesn't agree with you must be cruel and I'd ask you respectfully to stop it please?
 
CorvusCorax said:
I think you misunderstood my use of the word 'dominate' :)

I haven't presumed, I'm commenting on your posting style :)

Been around a while, yes, but if you appear on a a forum and you rub multiple people with a diverse range of post history up the wrong way, it might not be the longer established posters who are the issue :)
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Oh, you don't like my posting style. What if I don't like yours? Is it a big deal?

I rub people up the wrong way with a diverse range of post history? Hanging offence???? When I first started posting , there was no leeway when I made mistakes, since I hadn't been on a forum for years. (Didn't realise they still existed!!) But no-one said.....it's ok, we understand.....it was, oh look, Dree's made a huge sodding mistake.....again.....on the first/second day of coming on here. No sympathy.....just jumping down my throat. That's not the way people should communicate, no matter how they are doing it. You have no idea who I am. No idea of my mental state. I personally think you should all take your arrogance and have a rethink on how you treat people on this forum. Maybe you've been here too long. I should state that a couple of people are really nice, ask questions or whatever. I try my best to answer all questions as correctly as possible. If that is an offence (and apparently showing how wonderful I am....I wish!!) then I can only apologise. I love my dogs deeply, and I love obedience deeply. They have taken over from horses, which were the love of my life, so I try to help/answer as best I can. If I go on too much (as I am here!!) I do apologise. But if anyone wants help, I will jump through hoops to help them.

Edit to add.....I have not insinuated that anyone who does not train as I do is cruel. Where have I done that??

And, yes, I mixed you up with someone else re: the e-collars, so my sincere apologies for that.
 
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