Anyone tolerant enough to answer a pretty daft question?

[be positive]

TBs are artificially inseminated, put under artificial lights, given hormones etc.....they then live inside for years. very little about TB breeding is natural. You can NOT use it as an argument for this persons actions. A selfish action to breed a selfish foal.

I have to correct this point, tb's are NOT artificially inseminated it is not allowed in the tb breeding industry all coverings are "natural" although they may have some hormonal help. The mares usually live outside in a herd coming in only when required, the foals certainly spend their first 6 months out as much as possible coming in at weaning, if they go into training to race at 2 they will live in from an early age but NH horses usually stay out until they are at least 3.

The OP I think everyone has put their opinions very clearly, before and since the two were put out together, she has convinced herself she is right, I just hope we have a kind winter so the mare and foal can thrive living out 24/7 as nature intended and not end up being stabled too much.
I have cared for foals born in winter, not a mistake but several that were stuck over here, due to export problems, for 6 months en route to the southern hemisphere with planned pregnancies so the foals arrived there in the spring, they ended up in stables more than outside in part due to constant wet weather, it was not ideal, foals should spend their first few months with sun on their backs, spring grass in the mares to provide the best milk and ideally another mare and foal to play with, this foal will have none of the advantages nature provides naturally.

 

[popsdosh]

They do have to be covered naturally. I do think all the TB comments are a bit erroneous to this situation.

No just an example that horses survive if they are born at this time .I never suggested the situation was the same.
For proof it does happen naturally see the thread close by

 

[PoppyAnderson]

The OP has convinced herself she is right.

Not true at all and at no point have I tried to defend myself or say you're all wrong and I'm right. I will defend my knowledge and abilities however and the life my horses lead, as my care of them is second to none and the care that the mare and foal will receive will be the same. However, it's all academic now as the moment for not going ahead has passed.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

I've just found 8 £200 and under within 5 miles of of me on preloved. Nationally there are hundreds. I bought a 2yo to make 14h2/15h for £160 delivered.

411 nationwide under £100.

nd I've not even looked on Dragon Driving or any of the actually horsey sites.

All without a % of Welsh breeding? Or without a 13.2 in their parentage? Or with known parentage? Or without blue eyes? Of decent quality with good confirmation? Honestly, I don't believe it because I've looked and looked. Of course there are a few but not many and certainly not hundreds. As for dragon driving, you're not really suggesting that that's a legitimate alternative?

 

[EQUIDAE]

U

All without a % of Welsh breeding? Or without a 13.2 in their parentage? Or with known parentage? Or without blue eyes? Of decent quality with good confirmation? Honestly, I don't believe it because I've looked and looked. Of course there are a few but not many and certainly not hundreds. As for dragon driving, you're not really suggesting that that's a legitimate alternative?

Yes plenty... I'm suggesting that the type you are breeding comes up on dragon driving all the time - a none decsript coloured mare crossed with an unproven stallion.

Just for the record - your coloured mare may well throw a foal with wall eye. They tend to do that do that. I'm not sure you actually understand about breeding and genetics - you certainly won't get the smoky black you're hoping for.

 

[Clodagh]

All without a % of Welsh breeding? Or without a 13.2 in their parentage? Or with known parentage? Or without blue eyes? Of decent quality with good confirmation? Honestly, I don't believe it because I've looked and looked. Of course there are a few but not many and certainly not hundreds. As for dragon driving, you're not really suggesting that that's a legitimate alternative?

Do you know your mares full breeding?
I don't see why OP can't get a smokey black, highlands have the cream gene don't they? Genetics person out there?

I bred a 16hh mare to a 15.2 stallion, both with known breeding, and got a very hot 18hh gnu, so you camn't be sure you will get whay you count on. I hope you do though, I enjoyed breeding my foal, when I wasn't stressed. I haven't kept him though, too much for me and far too big.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Highlands have the proper Dun gene. I think the confusion arises as what highland people call 'cream dun' actually seems to be dun+grey (I say seems as I haven't actually seen any DNA results and I am going on the appearance of the horse). If the breed had the Cream gene, you would get Dunskins and I haven't seen any evidence of this colour occurring in highlands, so feel that it is very unlikely that the breed has Cream. They do possibly have the silver gene, but I've only ever seen what looks like a silver highland, potentially misidentified as flaxen liver chestnut. As I've never seen a Red Dun Highland, I actually wonder if they are all black based with no chestnut in the breed?

 

[AdorableAlice]

TBs are artificially inseminated, put under artificial lights, given hormones etc.....they then live inside for years. very little about TB breeding is natural. You can NOT use it as an argument for this persons actions. A selfish action to breed a selfish foal.

Totally incorrect. TB's bred to race cannot be conceived via AI.

 

[popsdosh]

Totally incorrect. TB's bred to race cannot be conceived via AI.

Some how that looks like a comment from me and it wasnt! Dont know whats going on

 

[PoppyAnderson]

U

Yes plenty... I'm suggesting that the type you are breeding comes up on dragon driving all the time - a none decsript coloured mare crossed with an unproven stallion.

Just for the record - your coloured mare may well throw a foal with wall eye. They tend to do that do that. I'm not sure you actually understand about breeding and genetics - you certainly won't get the smoky black you're hoping for.

I've said about 24 times that breeding is new to me. However, there is a very good chance that I'll get a smoky black.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

U

Yes plenty... I'm suggesting that the type you are breeding comes up on dragon driving all the time - a none decsript coloured mare crossed with an unproven stallion.
.

Exactly, on dragon driving. That's not quite my aim and not what you first said either.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

I bred a 16hh mare to a 15.2 stallion, both with known breeding, and got a very hot 18hh gnu, so you camn't be sure you will get whay you count on. I hope you do though, I enjoyed breeding my foal, when I wasn't stressed. I haven't kept him though, too much for me and far too big.

Yep, I know I could get an unexpected throwback. Hopefully not though.

 

[legend22]

Idiotic .

You'd hope this was a troll thread but the OP's high post count indicates otherwise.

Exactly this....

 

[EQUIDAE]

I've said about 24 times that breeding is new to me. However, there is a very good chance that I'll get a smoky black.

There isn't

 

[Meowy Catkin]

The Cream gene would have to come from the mare IMO.

 

[Alec Swan]

Yep, I know I could get an unexpected throwback. Hopefully not though.

Breeding is a risky business, as those of us who breed know to our occasional cost. It would seem to many, and those who do have experience, that you are extending the boundaries of risk. From your posts, it would seem that you lack experience which is actually OK. What isn't OK, is that you ask for advice, argue against it, and that you seem to be in total disregard of the very well expressed and intentioned observations of others. If you are so certain of your points, then why did you ask for advice? Was it advice or were you hoping for confirmation that your plans made sense?

Perhaps through your arguments which are really only theory based, it may be that you have a better understanding of out-of-season breeding than others, and that may be so, because it's the only real bone of contention.

Hey-ho, your horse and your choice, but when you ask for opinions, then that's what you'll end up with!

Alec.

 

[Leo Walker]

I've just found 8 £200 and under within 5 miles of of me on preloved. Nationally there are hundreds. I bought a 2yo to make 14h2/15h for £160 delivered.

411 nationwide under £100.

And I've not even looked on Dragon Driving or any of the actually horsey sites.

Exactly!

U

Yes plenty... I'm suggesting that the type you are breeding comes up on dragon driving all the time - a none decsript coloured mare crossed with an unproven stallion.

Just for the record - your coloured mare may well throw a foal with wall eye. They tend to do that do that. I'm not sure you actually understand about breeding and genetics - you certainly won't get the smoky black you're hoping for.

This! No one is saying they cant go on to make nice horses, but there are thousands of them and no one wants them!

If its so important that you get a 14.3hh cob with a good temperament, then you need to buy one, not breed one. There is absolutely no guarantee of what you will get when you breed. Other than it wont be smoky black!

 

[PoppyAnderson]

Exactly!
This! No one is saying they cant go on to make nice horses, but there are thousands of them and no one wants them! If its so important that you get a 14.3hh cob with a good temperament, then you need to buy one, not breed one. There is absolutely no guarantee of what you will get when you breed. Other than it wont be smoky black!

A particular colour isn't critical for me but out of interest, why is a smoky black not possible?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Smoky black is a cream dilution. The Highland has almost certainly not got cream (see my explanation above), so the mare needs to have cream for the foal to have a chance of inheriting cream. She is not a double dilute, so at the most she has one copy. However it can be really hard to tell a smoky black from a normal black just by looking at the horse. Were any of her parents cream dilutes?

 

[Clodagh]

The Cream gene would have to come from the mare IMO.

That is very interesting, why is that? I know more about chicken genetics than horse and you do get sex linked colours with chickens, but I had no idea you did with horses.

 

[Clodagh]

Highlands have the proper Dun gene. I think the confusion arises as what highland people call 'cream dun' actually seems to be dun+grey (I say seems as I haven't actually seen any DNA results and I am going on the appearance of the horse). If the breed had the Cream gene, you would get Dunskins and I haven't seen any evidence of this colour occurring in highlands, so feel that it is very unlikely that the breed has Cream. They do possibly have the silver gene, but I've only ever seen what looks like a silver highland, potentially misidentified as flaxen liver chestnut. As I've never seen a Red Dun Highland, I actually wonder if they are all black based with no chestnut in the breed?

Sorry, just found your first reply after replying to your second reply! That is interesting though. So, for a smokey black (non Welsh) you are looking at a connie or something buckskin/palomino/cremello?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

No, it's not sex linked (sorry to confuse you), in fact I haven't read about any sex-linked horse colours. What I mean is that with the two specific horses owned by the OP, the highland colt won't have cream. So if she wants a cream dilute foal, she'd better hope that the mare is actually a Smoky Black Tobiano and then she has a 50/50 chance of the mare passing cream onto the foal.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Sorry, just found your first reply after replying to your second reply! That is interesting though. So, for a smokey black (non Welsh) you are looking at a connie or something buckskin/palomino/cremello?

Yes. You want a black based foal with no agouti of any kind, plus one copy of Cream. Two copies would give you a Smoky Cream foal.

Smoky black isn't a striking colour as it isn't really visibly different from a normal black, so people generally only breed for it as part of a wider cream dilute programme.

It's likely that the OP will get a Dun/grulla foal, possibly with tobiano too.

 

[EQUIDAE]

Here's one for you - I bred a foal. Palomino dam with a black sire - I had an even chance of getting any colour (except grey). What did I get? A boring bay...

 

[Meowy Catkin]

LOL. It's funny how often people get the colour that they didn't really want, even when the % of getting it is actually quite low. I once saw a buckskin tobiano and a bay, produce a solid chestnut foal, it was a bit of a surprise for the owner because IIRC chestnut was quite far back on both pedigrees, but it was there hiding. I think they would have been happier if the foal was either palomino or tobiano, but it wasn't to be.

I do love colour genetics, but if I bred, it would be one of my very last considerations when choosing a mare and stallion. Even then I would actually be more concerned with having black skin on the legs, rather than the fur colour, due to the issues with LV/photosensitivity that I've had. If I could have the magic cherry on the cake and have the colour that I like too, it would be chestnut every time. I do like an orange horse.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

LOL. It's funny how often people get the colour that they didn't really want, even when the % of getting it is actually quite low. I once saw a buckskin tobiano and a bay, produce a solid chestnut foal, it was a bit of a surprise for the owner because IIRC chestnut was quite far back on both pedigrees, but it was there hiding. I think they would have been happier if the foal was either palomino or tobiano, but it wasn't to be.

I do love colour genetics, but if I bred, it would be one of my very last considerations when choosing a mare and stallion. Even then I would actually be more concerned with having black skin on the legs, rather than the fur colour, due to the issues with LV/photosensitivity that I've had. If I could have the magic cherry on the cake and have the colour that I like too, it would be chestnut every time. I do like an orange horse.

Colour really isn't a critical factor but if I got a grullo or dun foal, I'd be over the moon.

 

[ester]

I think Faracat has cleared it up. Smokey black (black+cream) would just look like black, so it could be possible the mare might have a cream gene depending on her parentage.

The highland carries dun. Black + dun = grullo. Because they often carry grey on top they can lead to some interesting colours in the meantime while they grey out.
Depends on whether the parents are homozygous or heterozygous for black (red carrier) as to whether a foal would end up red or black base colour and then it just depends whether the dun and/or the tobiano gets passed on.

 

[Alec Swan]

Yes. You want a black based foal with no agouti of any kind, plus one copy of Cream. Two copies would give you a Smoky Cream foal.

…….. .

OK, so how do I get one in avocado?

Alec.

 

[Tiddlypom]

OK, so how do I get one in avocado?

Alec.

So very 70's, Alec !

 

[ycbm]

OK, so how do I get one in avocado?

Alec.