Anyone want a thread for the Olympic dressage live?

[milliepops]

it wasn't meant to be insulting, please don't take offense for the sake of it, i'm riding the mountain bike against the road racers too and I take great enjoyment in it, developing my horse within what she is capable of, yet I *know* i don't deserve to be scored the same as them, and I don't expect to either, even when she's at her maximum suppleness, expressiveness, responsiveness we are still going to be 10% behind the WB pack.

are my expectations too low? i've made my case for why i understand and believe a naturally scopey and elastic horse scores better than mine does, instead of getting cross with me perhaps you could explain why you think i ought to be getting a better score than i do, if my horse is absolutely on the best theoretical form of her life?

this feels like you're getting affronted because the PRE is not the love of my life, but that's not relevant as we are discussing a sport not our individual preferences.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Ima try this again.

So if the warmblood is *the* tool for the sport, does that mean nothing else can do the job as well? I would say yes.

Is it possible to say the Warmblood is the tool/the horse for the sport and say there is 100% no bias against anything else? I suppose it depends on who you talk to.

But also, it would be interesting to see how dressage got here. Again, not "my sport" so a bit ignorant. I wonder how the demands increased and how breeding went this direction/*this* was determined to be the ultimate dressage horse, or tool for the job. Will have to do some reading, perhaps ?

I literally think you don't deserve a better score than what you're getting? I think we're talking past each other here.

"this feels like you're getting affronted because the PRE is not the love of my life, but that's not relevant as we are discussing a sport not our individual preferences"

? I hope this is a joke.

I don't give a care who or what is the love of your life. As you said, not relevant.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I know it's tricky when writing to get a point across, but CC I think you may be misinterpeting MP a little! I don't think that post was condescending, she was putting a point across clearly and I think if you were having a chat over a glass of wine you'd both be a lot closer in opinion than you think ?

All three of us have non-typical dressage horses / ponies and I think we're all proud of it. You are both working yours at a far higher level than I am and I'm sure we all want to support each other and learn as we go.

I am torn between it being condescending and informative. The joys of interpretation over the internet ?

I think we have some opinions that definitely do not align, but there are also some that certainly might!

I don't know how "proud" I am, tbh. I'd like to be further along, but it is what it is. We're just above Advanced Medium.

I think my views are a bit tainted at the moment since I am a bit dressage sour. I am an overly critical negative individual (I think it's genetic ?) and I'm not sure that dressage is the best for me and my critical tendencies and the way that I think. Might just go back to racing the clock or keep the PRE as a pet (he'd love it, actually ?).

 

[milliepops]

Ima try this again.

So if the warmblood is *the* tool for the sport, does that mean nothing else can do the job as well? I would say yes.

Is it possible to say the Warmblood is the tool/the horse for the sport and say there is 100% no bias against anything else? I suppose it depends on who you talk to.

I don't believe the judges get the breeding out before they start giving scores and say, oh this is a Hannoverian so let's start at an 8.5 and see how we go. i believe that if a loose, supple, TB with engaged hindlegs and an ability to sit came out it would score the same. so in that way, there's no inherent bias, it's just that the other breeds and types are less likely or less able to deliver the type of thing that WB breeding is aiming at and that the sport rewards.

the end result may be the same but I believe the intent in the judging is different. it's not horse racism, it's where the different aptitudes come out from different breeds or types, and how that meshes with the ideals insofar as judging sees them.
particularly as mentioned above, there is no separate paces mark so you have to include the paces element (which is mainly what we're talking about here) in the technical marks in order to rank the competitors.


I'm not going to get offended by you telling me i'm being condescending, i would like a full discussion rather than just judge bashing so i try and back up my opinions, that's all. i find it frustrating when sometimes a discussion goes to "oh this is wrong" but no one can explain *which bit* or how to change it.

 

[j1ffy]

I struggle a bit with this conversation because the word 'bias' suggests a level of intentional skewing towards warmbloods on a personal level by the judges. There is the odd judge (at lower levels IME) who 'doesn't like' them, but experienced judges will assess the strengths and weaknesses that they see in front of them against the rules as they have been laid out.

In terms of the rules - they were originally based on the Germany cavalry system so would naturally favour bigger, different-shaped horses to the Iberian. FEI dressage didn't grow out of the 'high-school' dressage that we associate with the Spanish Riding School and Iberian-styles.

 

[milliepops]

I struggle a bit with this conversation because the word 'bias' suggests a level of intentional skewing towards warmbloods on a personal level by the judges. There is the odd judge (at lower levels IME) who 'doesn't like' them, but experienced judges will assess the strengths and weaknesses that they see in front of them against the rules as they have been laid out.

In terms of the rules - they were originally based on the Germany cavalry system so would naturally favour bigger, different-shaped horses to the Iberian. FEI dressage didn't grow out of the 'high-school' dressage that we associate with the Spanish Riding School and Iberian-styles.

yeah it's the negative connotations of the word "bias" that i think is muddying things.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I don't believe the judges get the breeding out before they start giving scores and say, oh this is a Hannoverian so let's start at an 8.5 and see how we go. i believe that if a loose, supple, TB with engaged hindlegs and an ability to sit came out it would score the same. so in that way, there's no inherent bias, it's just that the other breeds and types are less likely or less able to deliver the type of thing that WB breeding is aiming at and that the sport rewards.

the end result may be the same but I believe the intent in the judging is different. it's not horse racism, it's where the different aptitudes come out from different breeds or types, and how that meshes with the ideals insofar as judging sees them.
particularly as mentioned above, there is no separate paces mark so you have to include the paces element (which is mainly what we're talking about here) in the technical marks in order to rank the competitors.


I'm not going to get offended by you telling me i'm being condescending, i would like a full discussion rather than just judge bashing so i try and back up my opinions, that's all. i find it frustrating when sometimes a discussion goes to "oh this is wrong" but no one can explain *which bit* or how to change it.

"don't believe the judges get the breeding out before they start giving scores and say, oh this is a Hannoverian so let's start at an 8.5 and see how we go."

Literally wasn't my point, what I meant, or what I was getting at.

I am also not judge bashing.

I can't help but feel that your being condescending when you say these things. I assume it is my fault for not articulating well enough though, and that my feeling is wrong.

I am saying dressage has certain standards now. How did they get there? Do we breed to the standard? Or did the standard apply to the breeding? As in the breeding a certain type of horse. I'm not saying the judge is looking at the specific blood lines. Nor am I bashing every judge out there. If you want to take my words that way, then fine. So be it.

People often discuss the origins of dressage and what the dressage horse was originally. I find it interesting how the sport has evolved and changed. Please don't misinterpret this to mean something extreme or awful. I respect judges, but I do know there is a thing such as (human) unconscious bias. Not saying it is present in all judges, but it's not totally improbable that it is. Especially given the odd statements some local ones have made. So my views are shaped from my experiences. Yours (experiences) are naturally different.

I don't enter the arena and automatically think the judge has a bias, is looking at breeding, I'm at a disadvantage, should be scored higher, etc. Please do not take me that way.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I struggle a bit with this conversation because the word 'bias' suggests a level of intentional skewing towards warmbloods on a personal level by the judges. There is the odd judge (at lower levels IME) who 'doesn't like' them, but experienced judges will assess the strengths and weaknesses that they see in front of them against the rules as they have been laid out.

In terms of the rules - they were originally based on the Germany cavalry system so would naturally favour bigger, different-shaped horses to the Iberian. FEI dressage didn't grow out of the 'high-school' dressage that we associate with the Spanish Riding School and Iberian-styles.

Maybe it should be "unconscious bias" I'm not sure.

Absolutely agree with your statement about experienced judges.

Interesting re your last statement. I think that's something to consider, there are different "schools" of dressage. I wouldn't say any are wrong, to me, just different. Something to be learned from all of them, IMO.

 

[milliepops]

i think jiffy has hit the nail on the head. FEI dressage came from a different route to the high schools and so I would say that scores and consequently breeding has gone in that direction over time. look back at the Olympics from 50+ years ago, the horses are hollow and tight and not expressive movers, i think the change over time is like any other natural evolution where the individual who thrives (scores more highly) will be the one that reproduces and those tendencies become more exaggerated over time, and that has gone in the mega WB direction because of the principles the sport is based on.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Also, sometimes we have to go "oh this is wrong" as a starting point. We then enter a discussion on if it is indeed wrong, and if/how we should change it. I don't walk into every discussion with the answers straight off.

I might say, I feel this is wrong, but I'm not entirely sure how to fix it at the moment, what do you all think? While I ponder over a "fix" of sorts or everyone tells me I'm crazy and it is indeed, not wrong. So forgive me if I come off as just saying "this is wrong" or not being constructive.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

i think jiffy has hit the nail on the head. FEI dressage came from a different route to the high schools and so I would say that scores and consequently breeding has gone in that direction over time. look back at the Olympics from 50+ years ago, the horses are hollow and tight and not expressive movers, i think the change over time is like any other natural evolution where the individual who thrives (scores more highly) will be the one that reproduces and those tendencies become more exaggerated over time, and that has gone in the mega WB direction because of the principles the sport is based on.

This is the type of answer/discussion I was looking for. I apparently could not get this point across. Thanks jiffy!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Anyway, on a (hopefully) lighter note, I'm just going to leave this here...

 

[Bernster]

Ah now that’s an interesting take on things CC - have we moved towards rewarding the flashy extensions etc that more WBs are showing, and away from rewarding what say an Iberian type would show? I’m not aware enough of how dressage judging at this level has changed, but that’s an interesting discussion topic. Any takers? ?

 

[milliepops]

Also, sometimes we have to go "oh this is wrong" as a starting point. We then enter a discussion on if it is indeed wrong, and if/how we should change it. I don't walk into every discussion with the answers straight off.

I might say, I feel this is wrong, but I'm not entirely sure how to fix it at the moment, what do you all think? While I ponder over a "fix" of sorts or everyone tells me I'm crazy and it is indeed, not wrong. So forgive me if I come off as just saying "this is wrong" or not being constructive.

ok so there have been other threads on this board about how competition dressage is all wrong, and not adhering to big C Classical principles, and yet if you ask the people who feel that way how to change a competition to reflect other aspects and still be able to spit out a result of placings, no one could do much more than just repeat that it was wrong. that's why i find it frustrating, for me it's interesting to bat ideas around but you need some kind of background detail to reach for otherwise it just goes round in circles moaning

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Ah now that’s an interesting take on things CC - have we moved towards rewarding the flashy extensions etc that more WBs are showing, and away from rewarding what say an Iberian type would show? I’m not aware enough of how dressage judging at this level has changed, but that’s an interesting discussion topic. Any takers? ?

I'm too scared (and dumb) to enter this conversation quite frankly ?

It doesn't even have to be about an Iberian. Just a modest moving but correct horse. I am actually interested, I think, to see how dressage evolves from here. If it stays where it is currently, or if anything changes in any way. I am NOT saying it has to change, it's just interesting to note the development of a sport over time. That's all.

 

[shortstuff99]

For me personally, where it is galling is where one horse (typically a WB but not always), doesn't perform a move to the FEI requirements but scores higher then one that has conformed to the FEI move requirements. That should not be correct, for example Bella Rose piaffe v Fogoso piaffe. No matter how much rhythm etc BR had it did not meet the full requirements so should always score less, but it doesn't.

Of a horse performing equally correctly, then yes the more expressive horse would score higher.

 

[milliepops]

Ah now that’s an interesting take on things CC - have we moved towards rewarding the flashy extensions etc that more WBs are showing, and away from rewarding what say an Iberian type would show? I’m not aware enough of how dressage judging at this level has changed, but that’s an interesting discussion topic. Any takers? ?

personally... on the extensions, i don't think it's moving away from what an iberian would show per se, i think WBs are showing more and more what the criteria as written demand ++ : overtrack, suppleness, swinging, reach etc. i think in the example of extended trot, WB breeding has accelerated further away from Iberian types, and although there are Iberian horses that are showing an extended trot it's not "kept up" with the development of the modern WB extended trot, so the gap widens.

 

[Bernster]

Def agree with SS there.

Those following this dressage more closely, has there been a move away from the flashy front leg waggling, with the back end trailing behind, or is that still going strong at fei levels ? ?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

"Of a horse performing equally correctly, then yes the more expressive horse would score higher."

Ah, yes.

Which then makes one feel they have to have a certain type of horse to be competitive with others at the upper ranks though. Which, I guess is fine?



but..Ok, ok, ok...I'm bit slow, but I think I sort of get the "tool" thing mentioned earlier.

Still pondering why this tool was selected and how it came to be, which is where I need to go down a historical rabbit hole, myself.

 

[shortstuff99]

"Of a horse performing equally correctly, then yes the more expressive horse would score higher."

Ah, yes.

Which then makes one feel they have to have a certain type of horse to be competitive with others at the upper ranks though. Which, I guess is fine?



but..Ok, ok, ok...I'm bit slow, but I think I sort of get the "tool" thing mentioned earlier.

Still pondering why this tool was selected and how it came to be, which is where I need to go down a historical rabbit hole, myself.

It is difficult because expression is built into the judging now so there is no way around that.

 

[milliepops]

Def agree with SS there.

Those following this dressage more closely, has there been a move away from the flashy front leg waggling, with the back end trailing behind, or is that still going strong at fei levels ? ?

i would argue - yes
even the Toto babies, son of the most front leg-waving, disappointing back leg horse, have really improved as the next generation, they are young and weak and blah blah but they have active hind legs, that's for sure.

 

[milliepops]

CC it seems like you want to level the playing field as far as paces are concerned, but I really don't know how you do that (and that's where the last big thread on this subject stalled IIRC).

for one, you'd have to get FEI to say there is no longer any type of scoring for paces, which I can't see happening, they've just slid it into the other movements
for another, i think it would become impossible to rank combinations where the riders are all so very skilled, that they don't make mistakes in the test or throw marks away here and there, i think without the variation that "paces" added to the top 3 horses in the Kur yesterday, it would be very hard to separate Charlotte and Isabell and Jessica from a techinical rider performance POV.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

CC it seems like you want to level the playing field as far as paces are concerned, but I really don't know how you do that (and that's where the last big thread on this subject stalled IIRC).

for one, you'd have to get FEI to say there is no longer any type of scoring for paces, which I can't see happening, they've just slid it into the other movements
for another, i think it would become impossible to rank combinations where the riders are all so very skilled, that they don't make mistakes in the test or throw marks away here and there, i think without the variation that "paces" added to the top 3 horses in the Kur yesterday, it would be very hard to separate Charlotte and Isabell and Jessica from a techinical rider performance POV.

I have no idea how to do that. I'm not surprised that was a stalling point.

It's not completely untrue the statement of "you can ride dressage on any horse" because you can (level my vary). It's just that your horse and you might be totally correct, but don't have the expression and/or paces.

I don't know how to level the playing field re paces. Those of us with horses that don't have such paces, just sort of have to accept that or buy/breed something else for now I suppose. Or, just not care. Depends how competitive you are and how much you value a high placing/ranking in the sport, maybe.

 

[HashRouge]

Which then makes one feel they have to have a certain type of horse to be competitive with others at the upper ranks though. Which, I guess is fine?

As far as I could see, every rider apart from the Portuguese team was riding a Warmblood. It is clearly the breed to have for top level international dressage and that is fine. In fact when you put it into perspective, that makes it even more impressive that a horse like Fogoso can come out and be in any way competitive!

Ultimately, the Iberian horses are bred more for collection, because they are prized mounts for things like classical dressage, working equitation, bull fighting and even cattle herding. I know that some modern PREs/ Lusitanos are being bred to have more expressive paces (like Fuego XII), but ultimately they were developed for activities that didn't really require this, so you're starting from a disadvantage when it comes to expressive paces and extension. But then go and get a Warmblood to do working equitation or try and do airs above the grounds, and you'll surely see them unable to compete with the Iberian breeds.

 

[HashRouge]

I have no idea how to do that. I'm not surprised that was a stalling point.

It's not completely untrue the statement of "you can ride dressage on any horse" because you can (level my vary). It's just that your horse and you might be totally correct, but don't have the expression and/or paces.

I don't know how to level the playing field re paces. Those of us with horses that don't have such paces, just sort of have to accept that or buy/breed something else for now I suppose. Or, just not care. Depends how competitive you are and how much you value a high placing/ranking in the sport, maybe.

Do we need a level playing field though? Certain breeds are better at different things. If you want a racehorse, you buy a TB; if you want to do endurance competitively, you buy an Arab. Most equestrian events can be done on more or less any breed, it's just that certain breeds have a natural advantage compared to others and that's just something we have to accept.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I've actually seen some WB's be quite competitive in some working equitation competitions.

I also think there is variety within the term "Warmblood" so there are some more compact or almost baroque types out there.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Do we need a level playing field though? Certain breeds are better at different things. If you want a racehorse, you buy a TB; if you want to do endurance competitively, you buy an Arab. Most equestrian events can be done on more or less any breed, it's just that certain breeds have a natural advantage compared to others and that's just something we have to accept.

Again, idk that we *have to* do anything. Was just a thought. I suppose if one wants to be competitive in a certain discipline, they best get the right type or bred horse for it.

Can't say mine is bred for anything in particular except for looking good (morphology), to put it roughly. This actually answers a lot of my questions now re our training and what he'd like to do ?

 

[splashgirl45]

while i can agree that the judges dont seem to be awarding high marks to the flashy front leg waving horses there is still a long way to go. i go back to valegros extended trot, front and hind almost the same and huge amount of ground cover. in my eyes that is correct, now look at the extended trot of BR, its no where near as equal and her scores are now beginning to reflect that thank goodness. i am not a fan of that type of movement which is why i am not keen on charlottes mare, freestyle but prefer gio and florentina(the grey mare) perhaps i am too old school but i am hoping that eventually the unnatural front leg action will disappear.. fogoso looked like his were more equal but didnt have enough expression, it needed more height and longer strides which maybe could be possible, it would be interesting to see if spanish horses could be trained to put more into both ext trot and canter. over to the people with this type of horse, could you do that or am i expecting the impossible, i just felt fogoso could have given a but more and i was willing him to....

 

[j1ffy]

while i can agree that the judges dont seem to be awarding high marks to the flashy front leg waving horses there is still a long way to go. i go back to valegros extended trot, front and hind almost the same and huge amount of ground cover. in my eyes that is correct, now look at the extended trot of BR, its no where near as equal and her scores are now beginning to reflect that thank goodness. i am not a fan of that type of movement which is why i am not keen on charlottes mare, freestyle but prefer gio and florentina(the grey mare) perhaps i am too old school but i am hoping that eventually the unnatural front leg action will disappear.. fogoso looked like his were more equal but didnt have enough expression, it needed more height and longer strides which maybe could be possible, it would be interesting to see if spanish horses could be trained to put more into both ext trot and canter. over to the people with this type of horse, could you do that or am i expecting the impossible, i just felt fogoso could have given a but more and i was willing him to....

On the training point - yes, you can train a better extension but you'll always be limited by the horse's scope. Pumpkin is a good warmblood example, he's having to learn to stretch through his entire frame to get the better marks and will probably never have the trot of Valegro.

The Iberians at Olympic level are more than likely showing the best extension that their conformation will allow. They don't do a natural flashy, correct extension so you have to build the strength and some won't be able to extend until they have the strength for the really collected work.

ETA - grr - autocorrect! I do know how to spell conformation...

 

[milliepops]

It's not completely untrue the statement of "you can ride dressage on any horse" because you can (level my vary). It's just that your horse and you might be totally correct, but don't have the expression and/or paces.

Yeah, and in competition i think that's OK, because not everyone can win. Almost all of us in the show will "lose" for one reason or another, personally i'd rather lose with brilliant technical execution and not so brilliant paces, than the other way round, but that's just where I personally find fulfillment and I'd like to feel that i couldn't have ridden any better that day (it's a transferable skill then rather than credit all due to my horsepower) other people may feel differently.

As far as I could see, every rider apart from the Portuguese team was riding a Warmblood. It is clearly the breed to have for top level international dressage and that is fine. In fact when you put it into perspective, that makes it even more impressive that a horse like Fogoso can come out and be in any way competitive!

yeah. and, you could say, if the Portuguese wanted a "more level" playing field they could have ridden WBs like the Spanish team did, they seem to have had different priorities. Which is also a positive, i doubt anyone would have expected a Portugese rider on the podium, so they have the freedom to explore a different way of participating which includes furthering the profile and performance of the Luso breed in the sport.

while i can agree that the judges dont seem to be awarding high marks to the flashy front leg waving horses there is still a long way to go. i go back to valegros extended trot, front and hind almost the same and huge amount of ground cover. in my eyes that is correct, now look at the extended trot of BR, its no where near as equal and her scores are now beginning to reflect that thank goodness. i am not a fan of that type of movement which is why i am not keen on charlottes mare, freestyle but prefer gio and florentina(the grey mare) perhaps i am too old school but i am hoping that eventually the unnatural front leg action will disappear.. fogoso looked like his were more equal but didnt have enough expression, it needed more height and longer strides which maybe could be possible, it would be interesting to see if spanish horses could be trained to put more into both ext trot and canter. over to the people with this type of horse, could you do that or am i expecting the impossible, i just felt fogoso could have given a but more and i was willing him to....

the front legs and back legs matching thing is less of an issue for me personally, i can't really imagine breeders discarding the expressive front legs now and the hind legs would be kicking the horse's belly if they were matching in angles, for me personally the important thing is the engagement of the hindlegs to an "excellent" degree which still leaves a discrepancy between front and hind but still shows a high quality of the movement. obviously not every front leg waver shows this but as time goes on i think more do... JMHO