Yes these are our times
Haha oh god, I'd have enjoyed listening to that I think!
I didn't say that.
i dont really like the iberian type, we are all different and thats ok... if you look at fogosos score sheet he got good marks all the way through, where he missed out were on things like the extensions as some of the others were mega, i dont include the extravagent front with lack of engagement of the hinds, Gio got some similar marks to fogoso in the extensions as he is not yet there with them.. however i thought his piaffes were undermarked in comparison to others and when i looked at his sheet i was expecting at least 8.5 or 9, so IMO the rest of his test was marked fairly but he was undermarked for piaffe. although i dont normally like his type, i really enjoyed his test, so maybe i am being converted...
that's not what I was saying and i think you know that?
expensive!) . his walk score was not brilliant and the degree of difficulty was lower than the top placed combinations, being around 9 compared to the high 9s and 10s of the medalists, they judges also didn't score the music that highly.that's not what I was saying and i think you know that?
I'm not team WB, my first proper WB is only just one year old... I've ridden an iberian horse in competition too, and I now ride possibly the most baroque kinda horse I'm likely ever to have
Yet I'm 100% at peace with a horse's bestest ever extension that it can produce STILL being scored lower than another horse's "75% of capability" extension, simply because the other horse had a more natural talent for the move as described in the rules. they have to be ranked somehow and the only remotely objective way is to compare them as they present, not taking into account physical limitions.
My horse's best ever extension will never ever get more than a 7 at FEI levels, not ever, even if she grew wings in her feathers, she might be trotting for her 10 but she is just not good enough at it *in comparison* because of the way she's made. tbf I think Forgoso's 7.5 for his trot extensions was a mark to be pleased with, En Vogue "only" averaged about 7.5.
this is my understanding of how the judging is applied, i would love if a judge said , you know what, your horse is 14 hands square so no wonder it can't do a gigantic extension, extra marks for being the underdog but that's not the sport I'm doing.
Likewise I'd love Fogoso to get extra points for looking so happy but you know, same problem.
If we're looking at the freestyle scores i do think Fogoso's piaffe score was possibly affected by the odd turn towards the end of the pi/pa stuff which seemed disjointed. Only speculation as the final marks don't show the detail for each score given, only the average for all the piaffes scored (if you watch the disco+ coverage its at about 37.15 mins, it looks like it was supposed to be a piaffe piri but it was shown as more like a passage half circle, the judging guidelines are clear on this movement, and a piaffe piri that escapes to the outside , too big etc should score below 5
I honestly don't think there is a bias against iberian horses, i think iberian horses aren't always showing what modern dressage scores most highly, which is different.
it's not just about being on a warmblood though. it's about being on a super scopey, massively talented, highly trainable and supple etc warmblood. there are tight stuffy WBs with a bad attitude and stiff bodies that don't score highly. it's just that the good ones have pushed out what is a 10 for an extended trot beyond what the stuffier horses can achieve. If that hadn't happened, we'd have to have movements scored 1-15 or something to let the less talented still score a 10 for their less scopey extension, and still be able to recognise the additional achievement produced by the exceptionally moving horse.Um, yes, I am not saying that anyone should get points for being the underdog or being happy...come on, I'm not that dumb
If you think there is no bias then that's fine. If they aren't always showing what modern dressage scores most highly, then they are for the most part, not highly competetive then. So then, the sport is more tailored to Warmbloods and the Warmblood style horses, I would think. Maybe I'm wrong.
I just, maybe mistakingly, feel as though if you're not on a Warmblood, you're not as competative sometimes. I know Iberians are out there scoring in the 70's and WB's lower than that, but that's not my point. The tip top of the sport is usually WB's. I suppose they are the best horse for the job when it comes to "modern dressage" which is interesting if we think of the origins of the Iberian vs the Warmblood.
For me, I don't really care, I just show up and ride to the best of my abilities. Dressage really isn't my "passion" or "my sport" I've come quite far with my horse in just 3 or so years, but eh. I compete against myself.
But as an example, say I am on my modest mover Iberian vs the other rider on the huge floaty (with natural suspension) warmblood.
We both ride spot on tests. Will the Warmblood (should the WB) naturally win because he has more capability and range in his gaits?
If so, it makes one feel as though they've got to have a WB or a WB type Iberian. Which some say is getting the breeding of the Iberians too far from what they are supposed to be.
Maybe I am totally off base with my thinking here. Wouldn't be the first time.
Yes, the warmblood will win for that very reason. While dressage in its most 'pure' form shouldn't care, the FEI rules take into account that range / elasticity in the gaits. If a horse can gain a two-hoof overtrack in extended walk or trot, it will score better marks than a horse that has a one-hoof overtrack (some Iberians would struggle even with that).
As MP says though, Iberians can and do beat a lot of warmbloods even if they're not yet winning medals. I've beaten plenty of warmbloods on my PREs, and MP has probably beaten plenty on her '14 hands square'. The struggle is harder at the lower levels and having a warmblood over the past year, I have easily scored 70%+ at Novice because he's looser, more rhythmical and easier to get a consistent contact with than an Iberian. However he's not as talented for lateral work, not as sharp off the leg and will never be able to collect like an Iberian.
I've already accepted that my 4yo PRE won't score well at lower levels - he's too Spanish in his brain and the tests won't keep him busy enough. A steady warmblood will score higher, a flashy warmblood far far higher. But hopefully his talent will come out once we're at Medium and hopefully we go beyond that (he already throws in tempi changes ?).
But ultimately, whatever horse you're on the focus is on highlighting strengths and doing what you can with weaknesses. I think judging of Iberians has improved hugely over the last decade and will continue to do so.
To be more controversial though...they'd probably score higher and get away with their weaknesses with a top German rider or Carl / Charlotte on board