Are there some conditions you wouldn't even treat?

I agree with all the op ones - they are just no nos. I would also add serious injuries like cuts where they would be needing months of stitches and box rest and drains etc. my little ones just wouldn't tolerate the box rest and my ridden boy is 16 now, months off for a cut would retire him
 
Wagtail said:
Another thread has got me thinking. In my younger, less experienced days, I have thrown everything at a horse that I possibly could to get them right. I have gone through a few painful journeys and watched others' heartbreak too, as they struggle for years trying to get a horse back to performance. From my own and others' painful, bank and heart breaking experiences, I now have a few conditions that once diagnosed, I would not even try to treat. Apart from making sure the horse is comfortable and if can't be made comfortable, is PTS. The conditions on my list include:

Kissing Spines
Certain ligament disease
Certain fractures
Chronic and persistent laminitis
Surgical colic

I know there will be success stories, but in my own direct experiences, none of the conditions on my list have resulted in treatment which returned a horse to soundness for riding. Field soundness in some cases has been possible.

What conditions would be on your list? Or would you go to the limits of treatment in every case?
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surgical intervention for colic and anything with more than two weeks box rest for my lad.
 
I don't agree that a fracture should always be a death sentence .
Many fractures are relatively easily fixed now a days .
Neither are some tendon injuries the disaster they used to be .
Horses with tendon injuries will often return to full health and performance as long as they are not too old when it happens .
Long term pain relief I have no issue with either I take it my self so why would I not consider it for an old friend to enjoy some twilight time .again that's a one were age would play a big role in my decision an older friend yes a young unsound horse no .
Box rest is a necessary evil that many horses will have to have at points in their life .
Over the years I have had three horses with fractures that have gone on to have normal lives .
Severe tendon injuries as well its my experiance that with a well managed box rest and rehab and enough rest afterwards the horses I have had have gone on to have something else end their working lives .
Severe Ligament injuries are more problematic IME .
You must take a case by case approach to each situation so for instance I had the KS op done on C the last one we had with KS I had PTS because they were not the same horse and the situation was different .
If I had a horse say suspensory issues in the hock KS and sore feet I would call it a day without hesitation .
I do think owners have to plan ahead for injury and the biggest part of this is to get the horses so they can accept box rest if it's becomes necessary .
My whole system is developed around this - training them that stables are good and being in them is nice and restful , however I do have one that I would not ever give a procedure to that required him to be restful , he not a restful person and it would be a good use of my money to pay for a procedure were calm rest was a important part of the recovery .
I think it important not to be too negative about all this sort of thing .
On my yard I have
Fatty , a LOU horse who arrived on my yard to be vetted and turned to be very ill recommended for PTS by two specialists because if a virus induced heart problem we managed to nurse him through he also had / has sarcoids ,partial non sweating syndrome he injured a suspensory while we were trying to get the huge amount of wieght he needed to loose off him .
That was coming up to eight years ago that's half his life lived after that disastrous time during which MrGS has just had the best partner in crime anyone could ever wish for He now has mild arthritis which we are managing well.
J my TB had terrible issues with his teeth and jaw when younger he had surgery when six and although he has four dentals a year he has a normal life .
C had the KS OP then he broke his rib in the field in May nursing him through that was very very hard graft but he's back on track now and happy well and enjoying life

Horses do come through terrible things and go on to have happy times .
You have to take judgements when you have horses and sometimes it's hard and yes sometimes it is down to what set up you have .
I don't think C would have got through if he had not been on a yard were we could provide him with care were he never needed to be alone when he was at his worse he was observed and nursed 24/7 you can't do that on a DIY yard when you have a job and two children .
You do the very best you can with what you have .
 
I don't have a list of no-no's but would take it on a horse by horse basis.

In my experience the majority of horses adapt well to box rest - it is the owners who seem to struggle more.

I've had two horses go through surgical colic - one was 3 but didn't survive and the other was 6 who made a fantastic recovery. I wouldn't put an old horse through colic surgery though.

One of my horses had a serious tendon injury and if I had known at the start that he would need so much box rest I might have decided to turn him away in the field instead but he did come back to full work. However when my old mare got a bad hock injury I had her PTS as I felt it was the right thing to do for her
 
Anything that cannot be "fixed". Anything degenerative, not saying I would pts immediately on diagnosis, but I would look more to use pain relief and turn away rather than throw a load of treatment at it.
Surgical colic, never known anything come through an op come home and be right after it - and I have seen a few instances.
Anything where the vet is unsure of a diagnosis. My horse blocked to being mostly sound at the hocks, there was minimal evidence of anything much on xray or ultra sound but possibly arthritic changes in the hocks and suspensory damage was diagnosed. Looking back I think I should have pushed for further work to be done before throwing money at treating what were relatively minor changes yet were causing major lameness. I believe there was more going on than we saw at first, and possibly if we had spent a bit more money finding them I might have had more options.
In the instance of KS, if one op offered a reasonable chance of fixing the horse then I would certainly consider it for an otherwise healthy horse.
It's not really a question of the money, I spent a small fortune on my horse, but his issue was never fixable - it was degenerative. With hindsight and using my head over my heart, I should have turned him away and used the thousands I spent on him to get another horse.
 
I would say Uvietis. Although saying that when one of our ponies got an eye infection recently whilst waiting for the vet I knew I couldn't just its there and then.
I'd probably treat one or two bouts but I'd not want to go through/put a horse through what our old pony did again.
To people who don't know it, it's just an eye infection and I met obvious resentment and bad feeling when I put him to sleep. It's an evil thing
 
Nearly anything surgical really, though I would make an individual determination. I started with surgical colic and then realized that in general I haven't seen good results from surgeries for ligaments, stifles, or anything else. Any progressive neurological deterioration, lost my first mare to that and it was horrible to see her be so scared when it got bad. I will allow for retirement if they can still be happy, but generally that's it. Anything resulting in long-term pain, or that results in poor quality of life for them.
 
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Interesting how many comments anti box rest.

My own experience is that my Dartmoor stallion, who'd never spent the night in a stable in his life, was quite happy in a 12' box whilesoever the hay kept coming!
We had a little routine for mucking out where I let him out into the yard (gates both wide open). He mooched about nibbling weeds until I was finished, then ambled back in, knowing I'd just put up a fresh hay net.
 
What an interesting topic OP.

I also agree with your list. I'm not sure if faced with the actual situation I would be able to be as objective and say 'enough's enough' at the beginning. Its always tempting to keep trying and hoping when you are up against it and then after a time you realise you have gone a long way down the line and not made any progress.

However, I think it is all dependent on the individual horse/circumstances. For instance, I have one who wouldn't cope with being a field ornament and one who would love it.

Anything that requires long box rest is a no.
 
Black Beastie said:
I am at present still pondering my old boy who has just been diagnosed with a high acth result and who has stared prascend. It's a route I didn't want to go down but I am trialling it at present but if the meds start to cause financial Problems or he doesn't improve then I will call it
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My 16 year old was diagnosed with Cushings, he went downhill so fast and wouldn't take Prascend in any form. His feet & sight went in 6 weeks and I had him PTS 6 weeks after diagnosis. I could not see him go from a athletic horse to a wreck. Sad to see him go but I know I did the right thing for him.
 
I think this is something every owner should think about,' when you have livestock you have deadstock'. On Wednesday I had to do this to a young mare, because I had thought about this situation I had my default position so although it was hard its was not as hard as if I had never thought about it.
I have recently visited a major equine hospital whose facilities would rival a human hospital, but it did make me wonder who is all this for? There is so much money involved its a business and as with human medicine you can fix a problem but end up with a poor quality of life, but a horse has no understanding of why and has very few ways of expressing pain and discomfort. A vets default position is a like a doctors, to try a fix things, but sometimes just because we can it doesn't mean we should.
 
honetpot said:
I think this is something every owner should think about,' when you have livestock you have deadstock'. On Wednesday I had to do this to a young mare, because I had thought about this situation I had my default position so although it was hard its was not as hard as if I had never thought about it.
I have recently visited a major equine hospital whose facilities would rival a human hospital, but it did make me wonder who is all this for? There is so much money involved its a business and as with human medicine you can fix a problem but end up with a poor quality of life, but a horse has no understanding of why and has very few ways of expressing pain and discomfort. A vets default position is a like a doctors, to try a fix things, but sometimes just because we can it doesn't mean we should.
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Who is it for? well it's for us, the owners and riders, IMO.
I'm happy with that position - where my horses would know nothing if I pts rather than attempt treatment, I like having those specific horses around so I'd go for the well equipped mega hospital option if I thought it would offer us all a chance to stay together. It's my choice, as owners we get to play god a bit.

I have to say my vets have known my budget, spent accordingly when there was insurance cover *and* a good chance of success, but also been blunt enough to tell it like it is... I don't think they'd come over all 'supervet' and start doing things that weren't in the horse's best interests.

Sorry to hear about your mare.
 
On the subject of lymphoma, I had a pony diagnosed with this and literally had to kidnap him from the veterinary hospital during the night in order for him to be able to have a weekend of sunshine on his back and grass in his mouth before being PTS in our orchard at home. The vet school had done so many unnecessary procedures on him, maxing out my insurance by the time diagnosis was confirmed, and still wanted to keep him there rather than release him to me. It was the worst time of my entire life. We ended up being detained in the vet school car park by security guards, with the gates locked and staff telling security not to let us through. Fortunately I managed to get hold of the police to say that I, and my property, were being detained unlawfully and against my will. I'm so sorry that my gorgeous pony had to go through that. Never again.

Never colic surgery

I always thought I could never subject one of mine to long box rest, but I have to say we've had three over the years that have had various procedures involving box rest, and they've gone to a friend's yard where they have adapted to it surprisingly well and all have made a full recovery returning to full competitive work or hunting. I wouldn't automatically rule it out now, whereas I might once have done.
 
I haven't read all of the replies but to add to the list - Cushings and Laminitis together. We had my mum's little pony put to sleep not long after being diagnosed with cushings as it was making her very sensitive to grass too which meant she had to spend a lot of the time inside and on short grass which she couldn't eat very well as her teeth weren't brilliant due to her being a rescue pony and having had years of them not being looked after until we got her. This was no quality of life for her and so we decided (and our vet agreed) to have her pts before she suffered. A very hard decision to make but the right one.

I now have another elderly mare who has recently been diagnosed with Cushings but does not show Laminitis symptoms alongside it and so can still happily live out all year. If she becomes Laminitic or it becomes apparent she is starting to no longer enjoy life then I again I will make that hard decision. For me, it's about the quality of the life the horse has as well as the condition.
 
Many years ago, I had a12 yr old cat who had to have an injured eye removed. The op went well but the eye didn't heal quickly, cat went back yo vets for an xray to check her heart. Vet rang to tell me that she had fluid on her lungs. I asked if we should pts but vet said "no let's put her on tablets for her heart". Poor cat spent 3 months with a collar to stop her scratching the eye, which never did heal, living in the bathroom, so that she was safe. Then she had to be pts because the tablets hadn't worked. I learned from that to go with my own instincts. I am pretty sure, though that the very, who i had known a long time, wasn't trying to run up the bill.
As for the horses, my rule is no invasive surgery, or any other prolonged box rest. One reason we don't insure is so that we are not pressured in the heat of a stressful emergency, into agreeing to such treatment.
I was very pleased when my Draft mare had colic that the vet warned me that she was not a candidate for surgery. She was pleased when I told her that I wouldn't want surgery for the mare.
 
pennyturner said:
Interesting how many comments anti box rest.

My own experience is that my Dartmoor stallion, who'd never spent the night in a stable in his life, was quite happy in a 12' box whilesoever the hay kept coming!
We had a little routine for mucking out where I let him out into the yard (gates both wide open). He mooched about nibbling weeds until I was finished, then ambled back in, knowing I'd just put up a fresh hay net.
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Agree, my WB was on box rest for 6 weeks and you'd never know he was in his stable as long as he had a constant supply of hay! He was living the dream (for him) 😂.

I'd worried terribly about having his annular ligament op especially on a 19yr old. The op, anaesthetic recovery, colic, post-op infection, box rest, hand- walking, turning back out everything was a worry. However it all went very smoothly and he's still sound and hacking out two years later.

I've always said I'd not have colic surgery especially on an older horse but in all other cases I think I'd have to make the best decision I could given all the information and the horse I was dealing with at the time rather than a blanket no.
 
Yeah not chemo for an animal, to me.

Sarcoids I don't think anybody has mentioned, if they are prolifoc and reoccuring.

I would treat a surgical colic, but only in a young fit and healthy horse, and I'd give vets permission to pts during if it looked too far gone.
 
poiuytrewq said:
I would say Uvietis. Although saying that when one of our ponies got an eye infection recently whilst waiting for the vet I knew I couldn't just its there and then.
I'd probably treat one or two bouts but I'd not want to go through/put a horse through what our old pony did again.
To people who don't know it, it's just an eye infection and I met obvious resentment and bad feeling when I put him to sleep. It's an evil thing
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Yes I forgot about uveitis .
Evil is the right word .
Top of my list of things I never want to see again.
 
My horse will be 17 next year and unless and I can find some nice insurance I will not be reinsuring him. He has cost a lot over the years in vet fees for psd and other soft tissue injuries. He does do box rest well, but from experience with our other oldies who've left us, when they get colic past a certain age having not had it before, it's a sure sign IMHO that something catastrophic is going on inside and it's time to pts.
 
I'm in an awkward position with my mare right now. She has a severe tendon injury which means she can never be ridden and she's also a right madam who although seemed happy at first with the prospect of retirement to the field for the first 12 months, but is now wondering why she's been abandoned after being the centre of my world and worked every day?
I've known her for nearly 9 years and I know she's not happy as we go into yet another winter and I'm asking myself am I being fair to an old friend, or am I to gutless to make that call?
 
Theocat said:
Nothing that requires prolonged box rest for months. Nothing that would require significant pain or discomfort for the horse over a prolonged recovery period, regardless of how good the prognosis was. Nothing that has permanent and compete retirement as the certain outcome, especially if quality of life is compromised as well.

I think some people put horses through far too much - it doesn't matter how good the prognosis, some treatments and recovery times are just too much to subject a horse to; they don't understand they're going to get better.
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This definitely. I wouldn't operate on any at all for anything but I will patch one up with stitches if necessary. I'm also happy for a horse to have a year to come sound naturally if it's tendon related as long as it can be field kept.
I wouldn't entertain treating melonomas or cancerous growths as what you can see is only half the picture, they go so deep into the system; I also certainly wouldn't treat Cushings, I don't believe in long term treatments just to control something.

To me, quality of life is the absolute ruler; I won't put them through anything if the prognosis is poor, I would call it a day, probably a lot earlier than many of you but I want to be able to sleep at night not worry if they're hurting too much because I'm being selfish.
 
Depends on the horse. I wouldn't put mine through any massively invasive surgery or long box rest/ recovery time. I say that, but maybe in the moment and if it happened *touch wood nothing does* my heart will rule my head.
 
Really interesting subject and it's been fascinating reading all the responses.

For me I've learnt this year that I probably don't have an absolute no-no list. When Pop's did her tendon and I was confronted with the worst I never imagined she'd cope with the box rest due to her age and very nearly called it a day there and then. Thankfully I had a lot of support around me encouraging me to at least see what treatment the insurance would cover and take every day as it comes.

As it happens she's coped remarkably well with box rest and has surprised our vet with how well she seems to be recovering. Sure there are still no guarantees, but all the while she's her usual happy self I won't be giving up on her.

As someone else said, these decisions are often shaped by our personal experiences which is why I'd always consider on a case by case basis.
 
I'm conflicted about Cushings. Like Maesfen I used to think I wouldn't treat it, but there are some horses of only six or seven getting diagnosed with it who seem to be able to live a normal lives for two decades on pergolide. If the quality of life wss there, it would then come down to an economic decision for me. I'm not sure I would pay hundreds a year to keep alive a pony who cost less than that to buy. But then again, I don't believe that a horses 'misses' a life they didn't have, so then it's only a emotional decision of how much I love the horse. It's a tough one.
 
No colic surgery
No invasive lameness treatment that had no guarantee of a good outcome
Nothing that would involve prolonged box rest
Cancer
Uncontrolled/poorly controlled Cushings - if he wasn't more or less "normal" on prascend - enough.

Horses have no concept of a long life - their only priority is a life free of pain, fear or solitary confinement. They couldn't care less if they only had a week left on Earth, as long as that week was spent happy and feeling well. doing what they enjoy.
 
A really fascinating thread. Thank you OP for starting it. I agree with your list and would also dd EGS and Cushings/Chronic Lami to it. I had a Shetland who developed Cushings/Chronic Lami. She received treatments from vet and farrier before being put to sleep but with hindsight I wish I'd made that decision earlier.
 
It was me who wrote the post you mention. I wanted to know as my current pony would absolutely hate to be box rested, he's not good with the vet and is not always easy to handle.

I've said with him from the start that if he got laminitis or anything really and required box rest he'd be put to sleep.

I guess if we could manage him in a tiny turnout area I'd carry on with certain things but as he's also got arthritis I think he'd stiffen up and that wouldn't be fair.

I always feel a day too early than a day too late and working in veterinary medicine as I do I've seen many animals who've been allowed to go on far too long for the owners benefit.

My boy is happy out 24/7 being allowed to be a pony, he is on restricted grazing but has to be managed carefully due to his temperament and for him there's a lot I wouldn't put him thorough.
 
I will never put any horse through a colic op. In the long term it isnt worth it. You spend a year getting them right and back to normal and I have only known 1 horse to survive for more than 3 years after surgery.

Grass sickness I would never put them through.

Tendons, bones, etc it would depend on long term prognosis, quality of life and how the horse already coped with life as to how or whether I would treat.

In racing I have seen many injuries and the remarkable recoveries that these horses can make. I have also seen some that should not have been persevered with and should have been put down long before they were.
 
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