Arthritis and winter restricted turnout

[tb gal]

I live in an area where little/no winter turnout is the norm. Pony had cortisone hock injection in July after a lot of dithering on my part. Vet couldnt offer anything else as hock nearly fused its the small (tarsal?) joints. She was sound and done some pleasure rides and polework clinic. this month the horses are in during the night and due to work pressures mines on livery so out about 9 back in at 13.00. She has really stiffened up, today she was not right but I caught her interest with walking over and round poles based on a pole app which she liked but she didnt want to trot. I am really worried as winter she will be out a few hours. The nearest places with all year turnout have little or no hacking and the ones with hacking would take me so long to reach that I wouldnt have time to ride. Not sure what to do next really, vet is out next week and am considering taking her for more hock injections. has anyone coped successfully with arthritis and limited turnout over winter?

 

[Auslander]

I would prioritise all day turn out over riding in the short term, while you find a solution that suits you both. This much time in a stable will be really bad for your girl, and I'd be getting her out asap.

 

[TheMule]

Standing in a stable for 20 hours a day is unacceptable from a welfare POV IMO. You need to find a yard that suits her needs much better- half day on grass, half day in a turn out pen might be an acceptable compromise.

 

[ycbm]

I'm not sure what I would do in your case, as I don't know you or your horse, but there will be plenty of arthritic horses stabled full time this winter with bute to stop them seizing up. Many of them will be out hunting and competing.
.

 

[Birker2020]

When I moved to the one yard I was told that it was turnout 365 days a year only to find out when I moved that turnout between October - May involved 2 hours a day in a sand paddock shared by another horse with a division down the middle so they were separated. They were given a large haynet that all the horses on the yard munched on throughout their time in the sand paddock and during the rest of the time they were given nets of hay in their stables. They had ropes across the doors so they could see each other.

It actually benefited Bailey as the time as she was recovering from a leg injury so I didn't want her running around in deep mud anyway. The fields were peat based so the drainage was awful and they got very poached in winter, hence no turn out. It wasn't ideal for a horse with arthritis but she managed fine and actually seemed happier in the stable.

Its not something I would choose for another horse but it suited our requirements at the time.

 

[Starzaan]

No winter turnout is completely unacceptable in my opinion. I get too many rehab horses in with injuries or illnesses caused as a direct result of lack of turnout.
I would be moving her ASAP to a yard that understands the basic needs of horses and the importance of the five freedoms.
Personally, if my horses couldn’t go out all day every day, I would no longer have horses. I am absolutely appalled by the way livery yards in this country seem to be going. When I was a child people would have been (rightly) absolutely horrified if someone suggested they shut their horses in for the winter. It makes me so sad to see we’re going backwards in terms of welfare.

 

[tb gal]

As stated there isn't yards with turnout where i live , believe me I have checked the only one that offers within 1/2 hour drive is DIY only and I work away a lot and to clarify the nearest where I mentioned long journey are 45 minutes if the traffic is good much much more if its bad. so 1 1/2 hours of an evening I dont have. We do have about 3 hours turnout per day in winter and I can ride at night.One of the yards I considered has changed to 1/2 day turnout. I was really looking for ideas to make this work as I am sure many areas dont have all day turnout winter .

 

[tb gal]

I'm not sure what I would do in your case, as I don't know you or your horse, but there will be plenty of arthritic horses stabled full time this winter with bute to stop them seizing up. Many of them will be out hunting and competing.
.

thank you thats an option or eequicox.

 

[tb gal]

When I moved to the one yard I was told that it was turnout 365 days a year only to find out when I moved that turnout between October - May involved 2 hours a day in a sand paddock shared by another horse with a division down the middle so they were separated. They were given a large haynet that all the horses on the yard munched on throughout their time in the sand paddock and during the rest of the time they were given nets of hay in their stables. They had ropes across the doors so they could see each other.

It actually benefited Bailey as the time as she was recovering from a leg injury so I didn't want her running around in deep mud anyway. The fields were peat based so the drainage was awful and they got very poached in winter, hence no turn out. It wasn't ideal for a horse with arthritis but she managed fine and actually seemed happier in the stable.

Its not something I would choose for another horse but it suited our requirements at the time.

Yes thats the issue here it gets very very boggy as wet clay. My previous horse wrecked his tendons running around on it in a wet spring.

 

[Zoeypxo]

I moved mine further away as i could no longer cope with restricted turnout. Sometimes they were in 24/7 for up to 2 weeks at a time as the yard would close the fields in heavy rain. YO would say you should ride them instead of turnout. Well how would you like to get on a 16.2 WB that has been in a stable for 2 weeks .

It is sad that the norm now is becoming very little turnout oct-april. So many yards near me dont offer any turnout at all in the winter and the yards are full up!

it might be worth putting an ad up and seeing if theres any private yards local to you. Or could you move to the diy yard and get a freelancer in for services?

 

[Peglo]

I understand you want suggestions on how to make this work but I don’t think there is anything that will help.

my oldies had to come in at night because they wouldn’t cope out with the terrible weather and standing in the wet constantly but I was so conscious of them being in standing too long I had them in at 8 and out at 6. That was probably longer than I would’ve liked them in as well.
Some days me and them would rather they were in but I put them out anyway so they could walk around. It’s not easy when they get older but I agree movement is very important.

 

[Starzaan]

I agree with Peglo. You have asked what is best for your horse, and the consensus is of course going to be that she needs turnout all day every day. It’s completely unacceptable to keep horses shut in stables for 20 hours a day or more - it’s a serious welfare issue.

There are ways round it. Full livery further away, DIY somewhere with proper turnout and either a sharer or a freelancer to help out etc etc etc.

The simple answer is that restricted turnout is unacceptable for any horse not recovering from a serious injury, least of all one with arthritis. I cannot even begin to tell you how many rehabs I get in each spring that have issues caused by lack of turnout. It simply isn’t ok. There is always something else you can do, but if you don’t want to do that, then I would find a new home for the horse where she can get the proper turnout she needs.

 

[HelenBack]

I'm sorry you're struggling. I moved from an area where I could turn out as much as I wanted to one where yards tend to be more controlling about winter turnout. At our yard they can go out all day every day most of the time but if it's particularly wet we will be made to keep in for a few days or a weekend. When they do go out they tend to be in by around 4pm once we're in the depths of the winter which is earlier than I'd like really. This is the best set up I've found within a distance that doesn't make it too far to actually get to see my horses so I do appreciate what you're saying about there not being any suitable options within a reasonable distance.

I think it's definitely worth speaking to the vet about repeating the steroid injections although they may say it's too soon to do it again? Otherwise I think bute or previcox to help get through the winter could definitely be a good option. Do you try and get the pony out for a bit in the evenings when you're there even if only for a walk around just to give her some movement? And if you can't be there is there anybody else you can ask to do this for you?

The only other things I can think of are things like magnetic bands and/or leg wraps, rugging up warm etc. There's the sort of things that some people say can help and other say make no different at all but I think anything is worth trying! And maybe try a supplement if she's not on one already.

Good luck, it can be really hard when you're trying your best and circumstances make things more difficult for you.

 

[tb gal]

Thank you HelenBack - I omitted to say that I hack/school or lunge most days over winter. So Pony would have 2-3 hours turnout morning and 1 hour leg stretch evenings. Not ideal I know.

 

[TheMule]

Thank you HelenBack - I omitted to say that I hack/school or lunge most days over winter. So Pony would have 2-3 hours turnout morning and 1 hour leg stretch evenings. Not ideal I know.

Everytime you post the amount of turnout reduces- 4 hours, 3 hours, now 2 hours. It simply isn’t in your horse's best interests to live like this. I also won’t lunge a horse with arthritis- the constant turning force on an already compromised joint is only going to accelerate it’s degeneration.
I know it's hard to find a good set up so you might just have to be a bit more creative. Could you pay a freelancer to get the horse out of his stable for an hour's hand graze early afternoon? and then extend your evening visit with exercise and another hand graze

 

[ycbm]

When I was a child people would have been (rightly) absolutely horrified if someone suggested they shut their horses in for the winter. It makes me so sad to see we’re going backwards in terms of welfare.

I think this is very dependant on where you live. When you were a child, I think even before you were born probably, I was in a livery stable where the horses were in from October until the hay was cut. It was also very much the norm on the continent back then for horses to be stabled full time. I don't know if that has changed more recently.

It’s completely unacceptable to keep horses shut in stables for 20 hours a day or more - it’s a serious welfare issue.

I want to see some proper research, scientifically comparing stress measures and injury/illness measures in a sizeable group of horses over an extended time frame where the horses are properly warmed up and cooled down and never exercise more than their level of fitness warrants. No hunting on Saturday after doing half an houra day in an arena all week, for example.

I see many horses standing in fields for hours in winter who aren't doing anything much different than they would be inside a warm dry stable.
.

 

[Starzaan]

I

I think this is very dependant on where you live. When you were a child, I think even before you were born probably, I was in a livery stable where the horses were in from October until the hay was cut. It was also very much the norm on the continent back then for horses to be stabled full time. I don't know if that has changed more recently.




I want to see some proper research, scientifically comparing stress measures and injury/illness measures in a sizeable group of horses over an extended time frame where the horses are properly warmed up and cooled down and never exercise more than their level of fitness warrants. No hunting on Saturday after doing half an houra day in an arena all week, for example.

I see many horses standing in fields for hours in winter who aren't doing anything much different than they would be inside a warm dry stable.
.

I remember reading some research after talking to one of the partners at one of the vet hospitals I work with. It was about cortisol levels in horses in varying routines. I’m sure horse and hound shared some of the results in the magazine this year too. The cortisol levels were extremely raised in horses both turned out alone all day, and those kept in all the time.
I’ll call the vet I was talking to and see if I can find it again. It was very interesting and certainly changed my views, and explained why I seem to be seeing so many cases of stress induced laminitis coming through my doors now.

 

[ycbm]

I

I remember reading some research after talking to one of the partners at one of the vet hospitals I work with. It was about cortisol levels in horses in varying routines. I’m sure horse and hound shared some of the results in the magazine this year too. The cortisol levels were extremely raised in horses both turned out alone all day, and those kept in all the time.
I’ll call the vet I was talking to and see if I can find it again. It was very interesting and certainly changed my views, and explained why I seem to be seeing so many cases of stress induced laminitis coming through my doors now.

If that study is the one everyone quotes whenever this discussion is raised, its seriously flawed. It's a study of a tiny number of horses who were rotated into different management every 3 days, giving them no time to settle. if I recollect correctly.

The stable I mention above had 60 liveries in it and over the 3 winters I knew of it I don't recollect one case of any kind of laminitis. The stables were tiny, too 10x12 except for 2 of them which were 12x12. I would be more suspicious of changing feeding and exercise in the last 30 years.
.

 

[tb gal]

thank you all for the varying views, with regards to actual hourse turned out, I will endeavour to be more accurate:

May onwards till end of September - 24 hours a day other than when grass too lush in which case in from around 8 -8
September end of October - out 6 hours per day
October onwards winter turnout so 2-3 hours dependant on when staff turn pony out/fetch in, sometimes it might be more
all year ridden, schooled or lunged around the arena -in a square around the edge of the arena not a circle as I was taught never to do that - 5 days per week.

 

[Starzaan]

If that study is the one everyone quotes whenever this discussion is raised, its seriously flawed. It's a study of a tiny number of horses who were rotated into different management every 3 days, giving them no time to settle. if I recollect correctly.

The stable I mention above had 60 liveries in it and over the 3 winters I knew of it I don't recollect one case of any kind of laminitis. The stables were tiny, too 10x12 except for 2 of them which were 12x12. I would be more suspicious of changing feeding and exercise in the last 30 years.
.

Oh no it was definitely not that one - I know the one you mean. That one seems bonkers because as you say, there is bound to be cortisol in their systems if they’re changing every three days!

 

[ester]

Arguably the horse would be better out all day and hacked at weekends when you had more time to be there. rather than doing school work 5 days a week with very limited turnout.

 

[tb gal]

Arguably the horse would be better out all day and hacked at weekends when you had more time to be there. rather than doing school work 5 days a week with very limited turnout.

as per my original post, the issue is that i dont have the option of all day turnout...hence looking for ideas.

 

[SEL]

as per my original post, the issue is that i dont have the option of all day turnout...hence looking for ideas.

I think you'll struggle to get anything you're going to consider helpful because horses with arthritis need to be moving. Even a horse walker isn't ideal in your situation

Could you organise a sharer or freelancer to hack during the week for you?

 

[tb gal]

i hack/school pony 5 days per week so not sure what the benefit of having someone else do so would be?

 

[Dexter]

i hack/school pony 5 days per week so not sure what the benefit of having someone else do so would be?

To increase the movement the horse gets. If he/she is stood in 22 hours a day its a huge issue. Having a couple of hours of walk and trot hacking might help mitigate that. But otherwise your looking for a solution that doesnt exist

 

[Chianti]

I'm sorry if it upsets the OP but don't we have to acknowledge that keeping a horse in a stable for 20 hours a day isn't acceptable? If this was a dog or a cat being kept in a cage for the same amount of time it would be seen as a welfare issue. Perhaps we should stop calling them stables and instead refer to them as cages? In the OP's position I would look for full grass livery as close as possible for the winter. Even if the OP only gets to see her horse at the weekend she will know that she'd doing the best for her. If we choose to have horses we have to give the best home that we can.

 

[Zoeypxo]

I'm sorry if it upsets the OP but don't we have to acknowledge that keeping a horse in a stable for 20 hours a day isn't acceptable? If this was a dog or a cat being kept in a cage for the same amount of time it would be seen as a welfare issue. Perhaps we should stop calling them stables and instead refer to them as cages? In the OP's position I would look for full grass livery as close as possible for the winter. Even if the OP only gets to see her horse at the weekend she will know that she'd doing the best for her. If we choose to have horses we have to give the best home that we can.

this is true but very difficult to find in some areas unfortunately. I must have viewed 10-15 yards when i was looking and all had either restricted turnout , no turnout or sand pens for 1-2 hours a day.
very lucky to keep her at my work which is technically a full livery yard only, which allows 24hr all year round turnout.
there will be somewhere out there for you op.
I would also look into arthramid instead of steroids.

 

[TheMule]

i hack/school pony 5 days per week so not sure what the benefit of having someone else do so would be?

So that’s 2 days where you acknowledge he doesn’t leave the stable for longer than 2 hours? He needs some form of exercise 7 days a week if you cannot provide adequate turnout. It's not really a substitute as it doesn’t allow the horse freedom to express natural behaviors, but it's preferable to nothing

 

[tb gal]

Im leaving this thread now, thank you for those who helped. Not quite sure why one poster kept challenging my comments on hours turned out and stating I had "acknowledged something". Most odd overall.

 

[ester]

as per my original post, the issue is that i dont have the option of all day turnout...hence looking for ideas.

I perhaps should have been clearer.

Move your horse further away so that the horse can have all day turnout and leave riding until the weekends when you have more time to do so in winter.

See also having someone else to do it (albeit they will prob want a sound horse) means the horse can be further away from you and have whole day turnout because 2 days of exercise in the week are then covered if you don't have time to do so because the horse is further away.

My own horse has been 1.5h away and 3.5h away at times to best suit his needs as he got older.

ZP I'm not sure if arthramid is an option if the joint space is already very narrow?