Arthritis and winter restricted turnout

[ycbm]

No apology Paddy? That post about me owning land in the past was below the belt and you really hurt me.
.

 

[paddy555]

You are being really nasty Paddy, do you think I like the changes I've had to ask Ludo to make? It worries me every...single... day, even after 6 months, that I have taken him away from what most would consider horse paradise.

In my entire time on this forum, my attitude to this topic has not changed. It is the same now as it was when I owned land, go back and check if you doubt it.

And please don't EVER throw my enforced change of circumstances in my face again. You have no idea of the pain caused by my move.
.

then please stop getting at people like me in post 40.
I'm sorry about Ludo's move from horse paradise and I appreciate you have to compromise however you are giving the impression (or at least you are to me) that keeping a horses stabled for long hours is satisfactory. There is no scientific evidence to convince you otherwise, people won't be able to own horses unless they are very rich etc.

I don't feel it is satisfactory. I think it is putting the wrong message across. The message, IMHO and it is only my opinion, should be that we need to do better and that indeed we could do.

 

[AdorableAlice]

None of us live in a perfect world and many of us would like better for ourselves and our animals, be it bigger stables, more turnout, better weather, more money etc etc.

All of us try to provide our horses with a decent standard of life, none of us wish to compromise on welfare, but few of us can fulfil our dreams or wishes. Does this mean we should give up keeping our horses, where do they all go to find new homes in equine paradise in these elite livery yards with acres of hard standing and open fronted stables.

The changing climate with wetter winters poses its own problems for horse keepers. The ever increasing need for new homes sees yards and space including greenbelt being built on and the eyewatering cost of living will see many owners unable to carry on at all let alone be worrying about an under exercised horse that pulls out stiff in the morning. I pull out stiff every morning and reach for pain relief to allow me to hack an aging horse who also pulls out stiff, but we muddle along ok with a shared bit of bute. Life could be worse for both of us.

The OP asked a simple and common question, the answer is to do her best with what time and facilities she has. Perhaps some veterinary intervention for the stiffness. Telling her to sell the pony because her efforts are not good enough is outrageous and unneeded. A lottery win and purchase of 50 acres to allow free roaming would be nice but it's not going to happen, so all any of us can do for our horses is our very best.

 

[ycbm]

then please stop getting at people like me in post 40.
I'm sorry about Ludo's move from horse paradise and I appreciate you have to compromise however you are giving the impression (or at least you are to me) that keeping a horses stabled for long hours is satisfactory. There is no scientific evidence to convince you otherwise, people won't be able to own horses unless they are very rich etc.

I don't feel it is satisfactory. I think it is putting the wrong message across. The message, IMHO and it is only my opinion, should be that we need to do better and that indeed we could do.

My message has not changed in all the time I've been on this forum, land owner or not.

Your comment about my move was irrelevant, very unkind, uncalled for and deeply painful.

I'm out of this discussion if you think that comment was acceptable. I'm not risking that kind of pain again.
.

 

[Arzada]

It worries me every...single... day, even after 6 months, that I have taken him away from what most would consider horse paradise.

It is difficult keeping horses on other's land and even more so when you have an ideal in mind. I have worried daily for years, about 20. Maybe there is somewhere in your area that is nearer to horse paradise for Ludo. It's not easy to find but it is possible. The following is not to get at you but to tell our story. I decided about 20 years ago that I would only keep Arzada in a herd environment preferably with a run in barn. We have been at about 6 places. For a couple of short periods there hasn't been the run in barn but most often there has. Different worries come with this when you are sharing with others and their horses. The easiest for me with just the one horse is that we share with only one other owner ideally the property owner. We're there now with the loveliest owner and the two kindest companions and I hope we never leave. For the first time in a long time I don't have a Plan B if things go wrong because I don't feel that there is any sort of threat hanging over me.

 

[stangs]

There is plenty of research now showing how horses hide pain. Sarcasm carried from one thread to another isn't a great basis for a reasoned discussion.
.

Exactly. Given that there’s plenty of research on how horses horses can hide pain, or shut down, and plenty of ethograms for detecting distress in horses, one can thus argue that an assessment of the stabled horse’s behaviour allows one to make the judgement as to their ‘thoughts’ on being stabled most of the day. Targeted research isn’t necessary; the frameworks from research can be used to deduce just how much horses like being stabled.

I’ve known horses who had to have their top doors shut and their stable doors made of two layers of planks or they’d break out (said horse had 6 hours of turnout daily); horses whose eyes would pinch and their lips would tighten the minute they entered their stable (2-8 hours turnout daily); horses who looked fine but, if you watched the CCTV, they weaved throughout the night when there were no people to entertain them (10 hours turnout daily). It doesn’t take research to deduce that they weren’t happy being stabled. And these are trends I’ve seen in horses across the country.

My boy used to be stabled, receiving a few hours of turnout daily. He might have seemed fine, but, now he lives out, he actively avoids the mobile stables used as field shelters. If there’s no space in the other field shelter, he’ll still go nowhere near the stables, preferring to stay standing in the pouring rain.

(Besides. you’re not going to get much research because the importance of turnout, and the issues that arise in horses stabled for most of the day, is already well established within welfare circles.)

 

[SO1]

I would speak to your vet. Vets go to a lot of yards and may know of somewhere suitable that might not be advertised.

It can be difficult in the winter if the ground gets poached to find all day turnout. I have been on yards which did offer 24/7 all year turnout and they had to have hay feeders and the horses just stand around the feeder and ending up with mud fever.

In the 15 years I owned my pony first yard lived out he used to guard the hay feeder and just stand their most of the time.

Yard 2 grass livery was good but moved due to a horse dying of sycamore poisoning and also he got very ill as got tape worm due to other liveries not worming, no poo picking or testing and he kept getting reinfections and needing 4 tape wormers a year. Vet advised I moved him to a part livery yard where the fields were poo picked and tested and wormed.

Yard 3 part livery all year turnout plenty of grass not much mud 7 or 8 hours a day but was in at night all year which was the compromise. The only way they had excellant winter turnout was by restricting during the other months so fields could get rotated and rested so they had enough to move frequently in the winter so they didn't get poached and all grass gone and needing to hay the fields. No sycamores and did not get tapeworm again.

Unfortunately most horses do not live in perfect conditions. If we all sold our horses if we could not offer 24/7 turnout where would all these horses go? People with their own land have a limit to how many horses they can buy and look after. There would not be enough grass/retirement liveries for all these influx of horses to go to.

Personally in your situation if you cannot keep your horse pain free with the set up you have then you need to move and if you cannot find someone suitable in the local area then maybe retirement or semi retirement if you choose the one with poor hacking and having to stick with what is feasible in the arena and the hacking on offer.

Suggesting OP sells her arthritic horse which may not be easy to do if the horse is also elderly is irresponsible. There is no guarantee that a new owner would provide a better home.

I personally would not keep a horse if I thought I could not find somewhere with all year turnout but that would be based on owning a horse that was saleable to someone who could offer it.

 

[Chianti]

If we can establish beyond doubt that the horse themselves think their lives are crap then we definitely should stop having them. I'm reasonably certain, as certain as I can be, for example, that my own horse would very much prefer to be alive and doesn't think his life is crap.
.

Friends. Forage. Freedom. These have been determined as the requirements necessary to give horses and ponies a good quality of life. Horses evolved to live in large groups which spent a large part of their time moving in search of food. In this way they could form close bonds with others and eat in a way that helped to keep them healthy. How can standing in a box for 20 hours a day mimic this lifestyle? My pony had several health scares last year, which I realized probably weren't helped by his lifestyle. I moved him to a small yard with a track livery system. He's in a small, stable group and spends his day moving round the track eating the hay provided and the hedgerow. He's a good doer but I no longer worry about his weight or laminitis. The yard is over 20 miles away and I can't ride him off the yard as there's no hacking. He originally went there to recuperate but is obviously so happy that I don't feel that I can move him. I firmly believe that if we take on the responsibility of a horse or pony we have to give them the best life possible. All of the evidence is showing that horses need a more natural lifestyle. I really don't see how keeping a horse or pony in a small box for long periods of time can meet their needs. If we want to punish human beings we put them in a small cell and only let them out for short periods of time yet we refuse to see stabling horses as being a negative experience for them.

 

[Smogul]

But it isn’t a straight either/ or.
Putting in all weather pens should be more standard in the planning of livery yards which are built on difficult soil types or where the acreage isn’t sufficient for the number of stables.

I am not sure I see what you are getting at. When the horses are in the all weather pens, they stand around the hay bale and eat, just as if they were in their stables. Why is that any better?

 

[Dexter]

It doesn't have to be only rich people owning horses to provide them turnout. I've found the opposite. Lots of cheap little yards with 24/7 turnout but no school so people dont want to be there. Or people have to travel longer distances to find a yard with decent turnout. I've never ever found grass livery to be more expensive than stabled livery, the same with track livery.

Its people who should be making compromises not horses.

 

[HashRouge]

There are lots of good alternatives to stabling 24/7. I've been looking at livery yards near where my parents live, and that really is on very wet clay. But I have still found a grass livery with huge acreage and excellent turnout, and a yard that runs an equicentral/ track system. Sadly it doesn't have space at the moment, but I'm hopeful!

 

[Arzada]

I am not sure I see what you are getting at. When the horses are in the all weather pens, they stand around the hay bale and eat, just as if they were in their stables. Why is that any better?

If the all weather is attached to the stable then the horse has choice and many/most choose to be out. If the all weather is detached then the other advantages are still there eg being outside (I prefer not to stay in one room all day), not being in an ammonia soaked environment (I choose not to be where I pee and poo), better for feet, they can adopt their preferred, most likely more relaxed natural posture etc. Or in a nutshell better for physical mental and emotional health. Even better if turned out with safe known companions

 

[SEL]

I am not sure I see what you are getting at. When the horses are in the all weather pens, they stand around the hay bale and eat, just as if they were in their stables. Why is that any better?

Everywhere I've seen with turnout pens they do have room for movement. I've watched 3 horses next door to each other all play rearing, bucking games in their sand paddocks. All 3 were in full work, stabled overnight and usually turned out but it was one of those wet winters. I think the smallest must have been the size of about 6 stables so not huge but better than 1 stable.

 

[Goldenstar]

None of us live in a perfect world and many of us would like better for ourselves and our animals, be it bigger stables, more turnout, better weather, more money etc etc.

All of us try to provide our horses with a decent standard of life, none of us wish to compromise on welfare, but few of us can fulfil our dreams or wishes. Does this mean we should give up keeping our horses, where do they all go to find new homes in equine paradise in these elite livery yards with acres of hard standing and open fronted stables.

The changing climate with wetter winters poses its own problems for horse keepers. The ever increasing need for new homes sees yards and space including greenbelt being built on and the eyewatering cost of living will see many owners unable to carry on at all let alone be worrying about an under exercised horse that pulls out stiff in the morning. I pull out stiff every morning and reach for pain relief to allow me to hack an aging horse who also pulls out stiff, but we muddle along ok with a shared bit of bute. Life could be worse for both of us.

The OP asked a simple and common question, the answer is to do her best with what time and facilities she has. Perhaps some veterinary intervention for the stiffness. Telling her to sell the pony because her efforts are not good enough is outrageous and unneeded. A lottery win and purchase of 50 acres to allow free roaming would be nice but it's not going to happen, so all any of us can do for our horses is our very best.[/QUOTE


Exactly , you do your best with what you have access to, There’s outrageous sanctimonious attitudes expressed on this thread and it’s very unkind to make it personal to a poster who has just had to sold her beloved home .
Op is newly in this situation and will learn how to manage her horse .
My advice would be to speak the vet get the horse on bute one a day can make huge difference to a horse like this .
I would continue exercising the horse somehow and I would the lead the horse at twenty minutes twice or three time a day if possible even ten minutes active walking makes a difference .
You have a responsibility to work out a management plan for arthritic horses . This is a difficult time of year to make changes of yard but changes of management within the system of the yard can be done anytime .
My oldie is living out at the moment but he’s a horse that does better stabled at night when the weather get worse I think the deeper going makes him sorer so if we stable him he’s happier and tells us that .
You just have work on with it and find the best way .

 

[Goldenstar]

If the all weather is attached to the stable then the horse has choice and many/most choose to be out. If the all weather is detached then the other advantages are still there eg being outside (I prefer not to stay in one room all day), not being in an ammonia soaked environment (I choose not to be where I pee and poo), better for feet, they can adopt their preferred, most likely more relaxed natural posture etc. Or in a nutshell better for physical mental and emotional health. Even better if turned out with safe known companions

That’s great if you win the euro lottery and start with a blank canvas and these type of set ups don’t give the horses exercise or company .
There’s no excuse for a ammonia soaked environment in a stable that’s just laziness and perhaps cost cutting .

 

[TheMule]

That’s great if you win the euro lottery and start with a blank canvas and these type of set ups don’t give the horses exercise or company .
There’s no excuse for a ammonia soaked environment in a stable that’s just laziness and perhaps cost cutting .

It's much cheaper to group house horses in a barn than it is to have stables.
And a hardstanding pen is not expensive to put in- I know, I have one, it's brilliant.

 

[TheMule]

I am not sure I see what you are getting at. When the horses are in the all weather pens, they stand around the hay bale and eat, just as if they were in their stables. Why is that any better?

If that's the case they haven’t been designed well.
Properly designed, horses can move between different feeding areas, can interact with their neighbors over the fence, can have a proper roll, can have a kick about. All of which they can’t do in most stable systems

 

[Goldenstar]

It's much cheaper to group house horses in a barn than it is to have stables.
And a hardstanding pen is not expensive to put in- I know, I have one, it's brilliant.

But I don’t consider horses in barns to be safe .
A hard standing is simply a cage under the sky better than nothing but not good .

 

[paddy555]

But I don’t consider horses in barns to be safe .
A hard standing is simply a cage under the sky better than nothing but not good .

in that case it seems they are limited to a small cage that is not under the sky.

 

[paddy555]

That’s great if you win the euro lottery and start with a blank canvas and these type of set ups don’t give the horses exercise or company .
There’s no excuse for a ammonia soaked environment in a stable that’s just laziness and perhaps cost cutting .

when I did this 25 years ago I had not won the lottery and I certainly didn't have an excess of money, in fact we had very little to spend on extravagant systems. I was lucky in that I had an OH who rode so wanted the best for his horses as well and who was handy with a sledge hammer and rails and gates.
I simply had imagination and kept working and adjusting what we could give them to make it more interesting. Our place is small in comparison to yards so it was a case of using every inch of space.

They don't get exercise in that they don't canter around but they do walk continually. Ones on their own get company as they can talk to others over the gates and can groom each other. Some of them get grassy banks as boundaries so they can nibble these.

There is a financial saving however plus a labour saving one which is very important.
Give a horse somewhere to pee and poo and many will appreciate that and keep their beds clean. That means massive cut on shavings costs which at nearly £10 a bale now I am grateful for. It also means very much easier mucking out as simply using a scoop to remove dung from outside and a small dung heap as not mixed with straw or shavings.

Even if it is only a pen under the sky a 16 x 16 outside pen attached to a stable doubles the accommodation of a horse in a 16 x 16 stable. Hardly sounds worth it but maybe the horse appreciates twice the space to stand in for much of it's time.

 

[Goldenstar]

in that case it seems they are limited to a small cage that is not under the sky.

No ideally they should live in fields big ones eat grass and browse hedges and trees I do not accept that tracks are necessarily better than fields .
I certainly don’t like barn systems they are dangerous for the bottom members of pecking order .
There is not a easy answer to the problem of lack of grazing everybody who has a horse can’t get to buy or rent a field of course people need to realistic about what it costs to get a horse and find a decent place for it to live.
Here I have it will be just under seventeen acres of grass and four horses they can be out all time because I have space but that’s simply not what most people experience .
This problem is only going to get worse land for horses will be in more short supply .

 

[Lovely jubbly]

My horse has arthritis and in winter we have daily turnout unless very wet then they are kept in. She’s on pharmaquin joint supplement (life saver) and she wears streamz bands on (yes they do work) all the time. She gets ridden about 3/4 times a week light hacking.
Also has had a course of cartrophen injection. I’ve never had any problems with stiffness. I find dragging their legs through thick mud did more damage.