Arthritis and winter restricted turnout

[paddy555]

I think this is very dependant on where you live. When you were a child, I think even before you were born probably, I was in a livery stable where the horses were in from October until the hay was cut. It was also very much the norm on the continent back then for horses to be stabled full time. I don't know if that has changed more recently.




I want to see some proper research, scientifically comparing stress measures and injury/illness measures in a sizeable group of horses over an extended time frame where the horses are properly warmed up and cooled down and never exercise more than their level of fitness warrants. No hunting on Saturday after doing half an houra day in an arena all week, for example.

I see many horses standing in fields for hours in winter who aren't doing anything much different than they would be inside a warm dry stable.
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just because it was the norm 50 years ago doesn't mean it was right. Surely we have moved on with horse welfare since then.

I don't understand the need for research. We are taking a herd animal that is used to constantly moving (even if it is only short distances) and shut them in a 16x16ft cage and Chianti is right that is what it is. From a common sense POV how can that be right? we get away with it because horses are long suffering and many are compliant, the rest we moan they crib, wind suck or eat the door. Owners convince themselves that this is an OK way to keep a horse. They become good at convincing themselves. Thinking otherwise would be difficult for them.
I don't know if we can compare humans to animals but human arthritis sufferers do best if they move not sit still for hours on end.

I speak as someone who 25 years ago did stable them. The older horses came out stiff after a night in a box. Then 25 years ago I opened all the doors, did a lot of fencing/taping, fitted endless gates so everyone could wander. It is very wet here in winter so that wandering had to be limited at night but everyone wandered around to talk to their friends over the gates. At most times during the night they were found outside even in the rain. Rugged if necessary. No one came up stiff any longer. Just that gentle and continuous movement kept their joints working.

It is time we totally changed the way we keep horses. In the UK it is probably not feasible in many areas due to soil and mud conditions to keep them out 24/7 but it is time we got rid of rows of wooden stables and cages in American barns and replaced them with something more suitable. Adapt barns to small groups of wandering horses with yards attached would be one way.
Even with sole occupancy we can add an outside door and outside large pens. At least that would be an improvement and they could move.

I have said before on this subject that livery yards have large schools, jumping rings, large car parks and everything else to accommodate the human but little for accommodate the horse.

 

[ycbm]

just because it was the norm 50 years ago doesn't mean it was right. Surely we have moved on with horse welfare since then.

Yes we've moved on. We've increased the population massively and have even less space available for horses than ever before.

I don't understand the need for research. We are taking a herd animal that is used to constantly moving..... From a common sense POV how can that be right?

We (I) need research because "common sense" has proved to be wrong so often in the past. The herd animal that was evolved to be constantly moving had an average lifespan of what, 7 years, i think?
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[SEL]

Yes we've moved on. We've increased the population massively and have even less space available for horses than ever before.




We (I) need research because "common sense" has proved to be wrong so often in the past. The herd animal that was evolved to be constantly moving had an average lifespan of what, 7 years, i think?
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There must be research about. One of the vets told me recently she'd been to a conference where box rest was advised for only critical injuries because of the impact on tendons and ligaments of not moving about.

 

[ycbm]

There must be research about. One of the vets told me recently she'd been to a conference where box rest was advised for only critical injuries because of the impact on tendons and ligaments of not moving about.

That impact has been researched in injured tensions needing to recover, not on healthy ones as far as I know. I will never subject my horse to lengthy box rest and although box rest was "common sense" for tendon injuries for a long time in this country, it wasn't in other countries and I'm pleased to see to research returning better sense to the treatment of tendon injuries.
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[ycbm]

What's magic about 8 hours? Why are people happy with 8 hours not 4? Why is 16 hours stood in a stable acceptable, to some people, and 20 hours not? Does 24/7 turnout extend a horse's life? Does it extend a horse's working life? What's the balance between paddock injuries and injuries caused by insufficient turnout? What exercise pattern will compensate properly physically for reduced hours of turnout? I can't be the only person who wants properly tested scientific answers to these questions, can I?
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[Starzaan]

That impact has been researched in injured tensions needing to recover, not on healthy ones as far as I know. I will never subject my horse to lengthy box rest and although box rest was "common sense" for tendon injuries for a long time in this country, it wasn't in other countries and I'm pleased to see to research returning better sense to the treatment of tendon injuries.
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I’m pleased to see more and more of this. A lot of my rehab owners are shocked by the fact that not many of my rehabs are box rested. People assume it’s all box rests but in reality box rest really doesn’t fix most things, and in a lot of cases actually caused or exacerbates problems.

 

[ester]

I think what's magic about 8 hours is that it's the length of the working day for many and it feels like a bloody long time ?

 

[AdorableAlice]

I think what's magic about 8 hours is that it's the length of the working day for many and it feels like a bloody long time ?

Yes, and the vast majority of us work an excess of forty hours a week to be able to enjoy the privilege of being with our horse for a couple of hours a day.

 

[paddy555]

What's magic about 8 hours? Why are people happy with 8 hours not 4? Why is 16 hours stood in a stable acceptable, to some people, and 20 hours not? Does 24/7 turnout extend a horse's life? Does it extend a horse's working life? What's the balance between paddock injuries and injuries caused by insufficient turnout? What exercise pattern will compensate properly physically for reduced hours of turnout? I can't be the only person who wants properly tested scientific answers to these questions, can I?
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And where does the horse,s mental health come into this. not in being stood in a stable for 16 hours at a time in my opinion.
My doors are kept open other than for feeding etc. If the horses start standing in their boxes for 16 hours at a time when they have a choice then I will happily agree they don,t care about endless hours stabled. Until then I think it is simply owners trying to justify an inadequate method of horse keeping to themselves. it,s time that horse accommodation was improved and it would often be easy to do.

 

[ycbm]

And where does the horse,s mental health come into this. not in being stood in a stable for 16 hours at a time in my opinion.
My doors are kept open other than for feeding etc. If the horses start standing in their boxes for 16 hours at a time when they have a choice then I will happily agree they don,t care about endless hours stabled. Until then I think it is simply owners trying to justify an inadequate method of horse keeping to themselves. it,s time that horse accommodation was improved and it would often be easy to do.

What you're suggesting would result in a massive increase in costs and a restriction of horse owning to the wealthy and those who own land like yourself. That might not be a bad thing, but it's easy to say when it won't affect you, and saying this would be "easy" won't wash, I'm afraid.
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[Smogul]

The land round us is heavy clay and is often waterlogged, even in summer. YO commented that the horses simply stand around the hay bales and eat, much as they would do if stabled. I am not sure what the difference is. I am not convinced that standing around in wet mud for hours on end is great for joints.

 

[TheMule]

The land round us is heavy clay and is often waterlogged, even in summer. YO commented that the horses simply stand around the hay bales and eat, much as they would do if stabled. I am not sure what the difference is. I am not convinced that standing around in wet mud for hours on end is great for joints.

But it isn’t a straight either/ or.
Putting in all weather pens should be more standard in the planning of livery yards which are built on difficult soil types or where the acreage isn’t sufficient for the number of stables.

 

[ycbm]

But it isn’t a straight either/ or.
Putting in all weather pens should be more standard in the planning of livery yards which are built on difficult soil types or where the acreage isn’t sufficient for the number of stables.

That area will be business rateable. None of these things come without a price that will reduce the viability of horse ownership. I'm not saying they shouldn't be done, in an ideal world they should, but we need to recognise that eventually it will mean horse riding becomes a very niche sport.
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[Chianti]

Yes we've moved on. We've increased the population massively and have even less space available for horses than ever before.




We (I) need research because "common sense" has proved to be wrong so often in the past. The herd animal that was evolved to be constantly moving had an average lifespan of what, 7 years, i think?
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Then maybe we stop having horses? If the best life we can give them is a pretty crap life then that might be the best option. Just because we want something doesn't mean we should have it.

 

[TheMule]

That area will be business rateable. None of these things come without a price that will reduce the viability of horse ownership. I'm not saying they shouldn't be done, in an ideal world they should, but we need to recognise that eventually it will mean horse riding becomes a very niche sport.
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Of course they don’t, but when you have impressive riding facilities for the benefit of the rider but nothing considered to benefit the horse, there's a mismatch. For example, if an outdoor arena will suffice and the money that could have been spent on an indoor builds some turn out pens then maybe that’s the right choice?
Riders spend a couple of hours a day at the yard, horses are there 24/7

 

[ycbm]

Then maybe we stop having horses? If the best life we can give them is a pretty crap life then that might be the best option. Just because we want something doesn't mean we should have it.

If we can establish beyond doubt that the horse themselves think their lives are crap then we definitely should stop having them. I'm reasonably certain, as certain as I can be, for example, that my own horse would very much prefer to be alive and doesn't think his life is crap.
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[paddy555]

If we can establish beyond doubt that the horse themselves think their lives are crap then we definitely should stop having them. I'm reasonably certain, as certain as I can be, for example, that my own horse would very much prefer to be alive and doesn't think his life is crap.
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I am starting to find some of your posts very strange. How are you proposing to establish beyond doubt that the horses themselves think their lives are crap?
As we cannot do that and will never be able to then it is presumably OK just to carry on and not try to improve their conditions,

 

[stangs]

If we need to establish that horses consider their lives crap before we make any changes, then we don’t need to PTS a crippled horse. They might be enjoying their life after all. Without research, how’s one to know…

 

[paddy555]

What you're suggesting would result in a massive increase in costs and a restriction of horse owning to the wealthy and those who own land like yourself. That might not be a bad thing, but it's easy to say when it won't affect you, and saying this would be "easy" won't wash, I'm afraid.
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OK so welfare doesn't matter. We don't give a sh*t about it.

Yes I do own land so I am lucky however there was someone who also owned land I seem to remember until recently and kept horses loose in a barn system. That person was, like me, lucky to be able to do so. I can't quite remember her name? any ideas?

I get the impression now that you have moved your horse to a livery yard that horse keeping doesn't matter so much. Stick him in a box for 16 hours or whatever a day, we used to do that in the past etc etc
What appears above is simply a snide comment about me owning land (something that other person above used to do)
I remember similar comments on another thread about GS and keeping horses at home and land.

However you keep Ludo and however you believe horses can stand in a stable indefinitely please don't knock those of us who try to have a better management system for our horses welfare,

Unlike you I don't need "scientific research" or anything else to tell me something that I can see for myself by looking out of the window.

 

[paddy555]

If we need to establish that horses consider their lives crap before we make any changes, then we don’t need to PTS a crippled horse. They might be enjoying their life after all. Without research, how’s one to know…

one rule for one and one rule for another. Do try to keep up

 

[Arzada]

We are taking a herd animal that is used to constantly moving (even if it is only short distances) and shut them in a 16x16ft cage

You are being very generous about the cage size. No facts and figures on the average UK size but experience of several and reading this forum suggests that even 12' x 12' is deemed generous and it's OK to squash a 16hh+ horse in 10' x 12'. I have seen 16.2hh+ horses (yes plural) stuffed in 10' x 10' with very limited turnout all year round.

I have said before on this subject that livery yards have large schools, jumping rings, large car parks and everything else to accommodate the human but little for accommodate the horse.

I would add the agricultural colleges, significant in the formal education of horse 'management' etc

The herd animal that was evolved to be constantly moving had an average lifespan of what, 7 years, i think?

I'm guessing that that might be the wild herd animal. One of the better aspects of Strasser was her total belief in allowing horses freedom to move. I don't have her figures to hand (paddy555 do you?) but I remember that the average lifespan of the domestic stabled horse in Germany was shorter than the average lifespan of free horses.

Our little free living herd recently lost its 31 year old senior member, Arzada is mid 20s and the other two are late teens/early 20s.

 

[paddy555]

You are being very generous about the cage size. No facts and figures on the average UK size but experience of several and reading this forum suggests that even 12' x 12' is deemed generous and it's OK to squash a 16hh+ horse in 10' x 12'. I have seen 16.2hh+ horses (yes plural) stuffed in 10' x 10' with very limited turnout all year round.


I would add the agricultural colleges, significant in the formal education of horse 'management' etc


I'm guessing that that might be the wild herd animal. One of the better aspects of Strasser was her total belief in allowing horses freedom to move. I don't have her figures to hand (paddy555 do you?) but I remember that the average lifespan of the domestic stabled horse in Germany was shorter than the average lifespan of free horses.

Our little free living herd recently lost its 31 year old senior member, Arzada is mid 20s and the other two are late teens/early 20s.

I was being generous about 16ft. It was to close down any further comments.

yes agric colleges could be some of the first to embrace better systems.
NIghtmare though she was it was the better part of Strasser to make people start looking at their management systems.

I'm glad your oldies are doing well, mine also.

However not all horses are and that is the sad thing. Why are there so many problems, leg problems, back problems, arthritis problems. How much is horse keeping and how we ride contributing to that? (sorry OP this has gone off thread a bit)

Having dug out my copy of Lifetime of soundness she says

"it becomes obvious in the care of man, the horse is often subjected to the exact opposite of the conditions in nature. The damage of such deviance from natural environment becomes clear once one understands that the natural environment is not only what the horse has evolved over millions of years to be able to withstand but what it has come to REQUIRE in order to be healthy.
A simplified example: Constant freedom of movement is not something the horse would simply LIKE because it makes it easier to lead the owner on a merry chase when it comes time to be caught for work; it is something the horse REQUIRES to be healthy for its entire physiological makeup is constructed for continuous movement (its circulatory system especially depends on the supportive blood pumping action of the hooves with each step). And so it goes to a greater or lesser extent, with each factor of the horse's natural environment. "

I had no great liking for Strasser but that seems far more common sense rather than any non existing scientific study.

 

[Arzada]

However not all horses are and that is the sad thing. Why are there so many problems, leg problems, back problems, arthritis problems. How much is horse keeping and how we ride contributing to that? (sorry OP this has gone off thread a bit)

Well let's start with the basics. Posture. The resting horse posture. The grazing/eating posture. The head is much much lower and for a much longer period in the outdoor horse than it is in the (however long for) stabled horse. We could have a whole thread, indeed a whole module in a college , of the causes and effects of posture.

 

[ycbm]

The head is much much lower and for a much longer period in the outdoor horse than it is in the (however long for) stabled horse.

That depends on the quality and abundance of grazing, the method of feeding in the stable, and the individual horse.
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[ycbm]

If we need to establish that horses consider their lives crap before we make any changes, then we don’t need to PTS a crippled horse. They might be enjoying their life after all. Without research, how’s one to know…

one rule for one and one rule for another. Do try to keep up

There is plenty of research now showing how horses hide pain. Sarcasm carried from one thread to another isn't a great basis for a reasoned discussion.
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[ycbm]

Nobody is disputing that things could be better for many horses than they are.

Nobody seems to be disputing that implementing these changes would result, in many parts of the country, in ownership of horses becoming the prerogative of the rich and those who own land. And of course horse numbers will fall and even horses who currently seem perfectly happy with life won't be born and nobody will get the pleasure of owning them.

Is everyone comfortable with that idea?
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[Tiddlypom]

Yes.

 

[ycbm]

OK so welfare doesn't matter. We don't give a sh*t about it.

Yes I do own land so I am lucky however there was someone who also owned land I seem to remember until recently and kept horses loose in a barn system. That person was, like me, lucky to be able to do so. I can't quite remember her name? any ideas?

You are being really nasty Paddy, do you think I like the changes I've had to ask Ludo to make? It worries me every...single... day, even after 6 months, that I have taken him away from what most would consider horse paradise.

In my entire time on this forum, my attitude to this topic has not changed. It is the same now as it was when I owned land, go back and check if you doubt it.

And please don't EVER throw my enforced change of circumstances in my face again. You have no idea of the pain caused by my move.
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[ycbm]

Yes.

I think we need to keep a tally on the answers to that question of whether those who are comfortable with a huge restriction on owning horses to the rich and/or land owning would be affected by it. You wouldn't.
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[paddy555]

Nobody is disputing that things could be better for many horses than they are.

Nobody seems to be disputing that implementing these changes would result, in many parts of the country, in ownership of horses becoming the prerogative of the rich and those who own land. And of course horse numbers will fall and even horses who currently seem perfectly happy with life won't be born and nobody will get the pleasure of owning them.

Is everyone comfortable with that idea?
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totally comfortable. If things could be made better for MANY (not just a few but many which is really worrying) then they need to be.

If a digger can dig the base for an outdoor school and put down drains and the appropriate materials then there is no reason why it can't do the same thing around American barns. We would just not be looking at such an expensive surface. With just a few changes in design to work around the horses things would be improved considerably. It just needs a bit of imagination to make things multi purpose, stables and pens that could be opened up for 2 or 3 horses or reduced down to one.
Keeping horses loose in barns. I remember there was a video (which sadly I can't find) of the late 60's. It was a barn of Harvey Smith's horses. They lived loose in a barn.

We have the traditional wooden stables with the mandatory hanging basket set up around a large grassy roundabout with a drive around it. It would cost relatively little to bang stakes in, put some rails up and give each horse a run.

This isn't rocket science. Much of it is imagination and adapting facilities. Why keep building to old methods when it would be no more expensive to build to better ones.

You say horses who seem perfectly happy with life won't be born. I don't get that. On the other thread people were quite happy to PTS horses as the horse wouldn't know it had a lifespan left so it didn't matter. (I am not talking about lame or poorly horses)

Track systems are becoming popular. Are they really more expensive to put in that American barns? I'm sure they are not.

The horse having a sub standard life v people having the pleasure of owning them doesn't equate for me. Sorry.