Ask a Parelli student....no holds barred....you asked, I giveth.

Okay, i have a genuine question. I've been to a 2-day Parelli demo and I'm open-minded.

When the horses are being worked at liberty (I'm thinking particularly of the 2 Friesians that were worked by the lady in the electric wheelchair) why do they have their ears back all the time they are working around her, with their tails swishing... why do they look so angry all the time? I realise they're staying near her of their own volition, but I cannot work out why they do not work like relaxed, happy, ears-forward horses.
Absolutely genuine question.
Fwiw I've been around horses for my entire life and I like to think that I'm good at reading equine body language and mood by now - I've had a lot of horses to teach me it over the years.
Thankyou.
 
Tongue in cheek; they asked, you giveth, now please taketh away. I have watched the loading video and others on parelli TBH all I see is a man hell bent on confusing the animal. And as for now fear or pressure etc, OPEN YOUR EYES FGS!!!!!!!
 
kerilli said:
Okay, i have a genuine question. I've been to a 2-day Parelli demo and I'm open-minded.

When the horses are being worked at liberty (I'm thinking particularly of the 2 Friesians that were worked by the lady in the electric wheelchair) why do they have their ears back all the time they are working around her, with their tails swishing... why do they look so angry all the time? I realise they're staying near her of their own volition, but I cannot work out why they do not work like relaxed, happy, ears-forward horses.
Absolutely genuine question.
Fwiw I've been around horses for my entire life and I like to think that I'm good at reading equine body language and mood by now - I've had a lot of horses to teach me it over the years.
Thankyou.
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The lady in question is Silke Vallentin from Germany and she only has one Freisian now after the other died in an accident. The ears are not pinned back but back as in listening as do dressage horses. The tail swishing I can't comment but I see this behaviour at HOYs when horses look all excited at jumping, ears pricked and the tail swishing like mad. Maybe the tail swishing is not always a sign of discomfort as we are led to believe.

I enjoy using Parelli techniques and it works for me and my horses and people always comment on how loyal, loving and easy to be around they are. However I do use other techniques and yes Mark Rashid's books are great and I have had the pleasure of attending one of his clinics. I also like Ken Faulkner.

Back to Parelli, there will always be those that are 100% committed to the ways of PNH and won't look outside the box, then there are people like me that open the door to other techniques and those that refuse to even give other methods a look in. Nothing will change that and it will be the way for always.


Like you I do also question some of the things done via PNH, Catwalk.. I left confused asking the why question. I never went on saturday but would love to know what happened. Sunday I was back and I got bored listening to the chat but I have heard it so many times and whilke I enjoyed the session with Pat the session with Linda after Georgia had to leave left me bored. I actually fell asleep a few times and decided to go outside for some fresh air. Mind give Linda her dues she was caught on the hop as she never expected her session to go as it did.
Incidently I loved Georgia's attitude, she was a lovely person and in a polite and positive way she expressed her thoughts.

How can Pat and Linda make so much money from something that they even say "Is so old its new again" Pat makes no defence of learning from others and using this and his skills in bringing the program about.
So again how do they make money from this.. simple... as long as people are willing to spend then the market is out there. Same as how do top eventers make there money.. as long as the work is there and people are willing to pay then the pennies will look after themselves.

When I first started with PNH I bought everything that came out, now a few years down the line I am more sensible and only buy what I need or really want.

Tongue in Cheek is offering a big thing and doing her best to answer peoples confusions and concerns as I see some people are still getting agitated and to some extent attacking the Parelli system still with negative comments.

You can still ask the same questions but instead of in an attacking way is it not better to be more constructive as that way TIC can give a better explanatory reply to the best of her knowledge.
 
hmm, i think i can tell the difference between an attentive horse with its ears back, and an angry horse with its ears back. these were definitely the latter, their whole body language looked angry imho - i wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise!
i can't help thinking that that came across as a fairly typically supercilious Parelli response though... ;) ;)
sorry to hear she lost 1 of them.
 
miss_buffay said:
i dont get what happened at stoneleigh, can someone point me in the right direction?? i dont have anything against parelli, i just dont do it. it works for some people and not for others, it would work with my tb! he cack his pants at one wiggle of the rope!
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that was meant to be would't! is the dont be snarky comment aimed at me?
 
miss_buffay said:
that was meant to be would't! is the dont be snarky comment aimed at me?
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Don't worry I'm sure it was more likely aimed at me. I can't help myself, it irritates me when someone assumes that because I don't do things the way they do things it's because I don't know any better. In reality I think the opposite is probably true.

I would happily adopt Parelli, I just haven't seen any good stuff or benefit to myself or my horses. The only Parelli demo I've seen was performed by some very unhappy horses & they just did circus tricks. I certainly have a great deal of respect for much of the stuff which has filtered through into mainstream horse management & understanding from people like Richard Maxwell. I sense that he wouldn't patronise me tho' (& that he could probably spell!!- always important when you are lecturing people)
 
kerilli said:
Okay, i have a genuine question. I've been to a 2-day Parelli demo and I'm open-minded.

When the horses are being worked at liberty (I'm thinking particularly of the 2 Friesians that were worked by the lady in the electric wheelchair) why do they have their ears back all the time they are working around her, with their tails swishing... why do they look so angry all the time? I realise they're staying near her of their own volition, but I cannot work out why they do not work like relaxed, happy, ears-forward horses.
Absolutely genuine question.
Fwiw I've been around horses for my entire life and I like to think that I'm good at reading equine body language and mood by now - I've had a lot of horses to teach me it over the years.
Thankyou.
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That was MY question - they always look really cross and tetchy, Ears back and tail swishing and a definite glint in their eyes which I read as 'Oh for Goodness' sake, go away and leave me alone. I'm sick of this!'
 
I do have a genuine question.
A bit of background first. I've been around horses for 46 years now and do like to investigate something before I either accept or dismiss it. Thus I studied PNH for a while and practiced on one of my horses.
It appears to me that 'timing' of the pressure release is critical and that this should be at the slightest sign of the horse doing as asked (getting the idea).
Recognition of the slightest sign requires (I believe) considerable experience around horses to gain the ability to instantly read their body language.

So my question - if a very key element of successfully using PNH requires a deep understanding of horse body language, why is it marketed at novices?
Surely a novice does not have the ability to react fast enough to small changes in body language and therefore is highly likely to confuse the horse and create stress.

My gut feel after studying PNH for a while was experienced horse peeps dont need it and novices dont have the knowledge to use it safely (horse not human safety).
 
Question regarding the loading video. I'm struck by the way he is swinging the rope to "simulate a predator" while trying to get her to cross the ramp.

First of all, I'd like to know why one would want to simulate a predator to encourage a horse to load. That is using fear, is it not?

Second, Parelli horses are taught to back up when the rope is wiggled, correct? I am mystified as to how the horse is supposed to differentiate between the wiggle to back up and the wiggle to simulate a predator. It seems unnecessarily confusing to the horse to use such similar cues.

Third, the man is paying absolutely no attention to the horse. She is being driven about while he is talking and not even looking her way. I am pretty sure that if he shut up, stopped swinging that damn rope and just talked quietly to her, he'd have a far better shot of getting her comfortable about that trailer. She does not look comfortable at all.

Please explain why you would use this method rather than simply speaking calmly to her and encouraging her to investigate the trailer.
 
God, OP I agree that your post is soooooo patronising. In case you didn't read it in the original thread, I have reported your idols to the animal welfare authorities in the UK. Let's see what happens.

Abuse is abuse - there is NO justification to train a horse with fear or pain - NEVER. Don't you think this is the time to keep quiet and not try and push parelli ? As far as I can see, the vast majority of us, in the UK and USA are somewhat sickened by their methods - and they are stupid enough to include much of this footage in their "training videos for novices".

My stomach churns at the thought of what goes on behind the scenes. Both with the "idols" and with novices trying to learn from said videos.
 
The reason Parelli is aimed at novices is because people with more experience with horses realise that the majority of the system is bull sh*t and is NOT natural horsemanship but a business making money. It does worry me that people are throwing there money at this system and learning incorrectly. I know there is not just one system for training horses but i fail to understand what this particular system is trying to achieve!
 
OK - this is not posted at anyone in particular - just in case anyone thinks they are being accused of being snarky :D

If you have read the other thread, and after millions of pages it is easy to forget everthing that was posted, the OP does come accross as being a sensible individual.

I think this lady (appologies if I have this wrong) is in fact a genuine poster, that quite clearly does have a mind of her own, and has made it abundantly clear what she does and does not agree with on the other thread.

I think her intention with this thread was to answer genuine questions that people might have about Parelli/Natural Horsemanship or what ever else you want to call it.

My personal opinion (for what it is worth) is that it is some of the comments that have so far bee posted are unnessesary

I have no interest in parelli nor have I practised it and I am not aware that I am a member of any brainwashing cults :D but I do have manners and I think some of this thread is a bit rude to the OP
 
I did read the entirety of the other thread and agree this poster seems sincere in his or her desire to contribute. Which is why I did post an honest question on this thread and I keep checking it to see if there will be an answer. So far I've been disappointed.
 
LMR said:
The reason Parelli is aimed at novices is because people with more experience with horses realise that the majority of the system is bull sh*t and is NOT natural horsemanship but a business making money. It does worry me that people are throwing there money at this system and learning incorrectly. I know there is not just one system for training horses but i fail to understand what this particular system is trying to achieve!
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Beautifully put!!!! I second this point!
 
baymareb said:
I did read the entirety of the other thread and agree this poster seems sincere in his or her desire to contribute. Which is why I did post an honest question on this thread and I keep checking it to see if there will be an answer. So far I've been disappointed.
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She has posted she was off to bed and will answer what she can tomorrow - from her posts yesterday I get the impression she is not in the UK?
 
baymareb said:
I did read the entirety of the other thread and agree this poster seems sincere in his or her desire to contribute. Which is why I did post an honest question on this thread and I keep checking it to see if there will be an answer. So far I've been disappointed.
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she is in america and said she was going to bed at like 8 am this morning so i figure her day will start as ours ends. she must be west coast. i am sure she will reply. I have so many questions to ask her but most of these have already be put forward so i will just watch and see how she replies to the ones already put. I dont like Parelli but I am interested in it as it clearly makes a huge amount of money (its downfall IMO) and some people obviously think it is good. Like i have said before, the idea parelli puts across is a good one, but only on paper, but in practice i just dont see how it works and it reminds me of how communism was in russia under Stalins rule. that is really how I see it and I am sorry if the offends people. But to each their own, i was more annoyed that she called Following Jesus a cult, which made me very cross. but she has apologized for that.
 
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OK,here we go.
1) Why are the Parelli's so resistant to any form of critasism?
If someone belives what they are doing is right,and want to show the world a "better way" why not allow your every action to be put under the microscope? If what you do really does work and really is "better" would you not welcome scrutiny?

2)On a personal level,do you feel the buissnes side has over taken the horse care side for the Parelli's? It would seem to be that way to most of use looking in from the outside....

3)Following on :p
Why is the required equipment so damn expensive?

The "Get Started" DVD is £16.98.Level 1 & 2 are £135.32.
BHS stage one is around £13,£15 for stage 2 and the sylabuss for any is avalable free from their website.

Onto equipment-
http://shop.parellinaturalhorsetraining.com/product.jsf?catId=109
that 4 piece kit costs £120.28.
Lets break it down.
A)Headcollar/halter/whatever you want to call it- Robinsons have one not a million miles apaart from the official PP one for a fiver.
http://www.robinsons-uk.com/product...pCode=0303&groupCode=03301&view=all#sku.56620

B)12 ft/3.5(ish) m rope. Lunge line would do the job,again widely avalable at around £5.
C)The carrot stick.
I really really can not see any difference between this and a normal whip.
Once again,widely avalable for a few pounds.Robinsons(no,I don't have shares in them just an open tab) have some pretty in your face colours cheap too if that makes a difference.
D)The Savvy string. Once again I can see no use for this that could not be met by a good old fashioned leadrop and some bailer twine.

So to recap- PP kit- £120.
Local tack shop-£20.
Now I am sure there are instructors out there with a brain who do advise you to borrow a DVD/use current common bits and bobs to start with,but all the ones I have come into contact with insist ONLY the branded equipemtn will do,and of course,it can only be bought direct(unless you stalk Ebay for someone chucking it out).
Once again,to me this smacks of money grabbing not "spreading the good word" while covering costs.

4)This is the thing I have most issue with.
Why try to make Parelli methods the only ones people listen to?
Other methods enjoy equal (if not greater) sucess and are employed day in,day out by many more people around the world.
Any good horseman will understand the need to look at what people are doing,then think about it and decide if it is something usefull.
The attempted removing of that by Parelli instructors is a worry.

Sure I will think of more once I get this bloody eyelash out of my eye! ARRRRR.
And thankyou for takign the time to post and reply to us.
 
bay_beasty said:
i was more annoyed that she called Following Jesus a cult, which made me very cross. but she has apologized for that.
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TBF,at the start it was.
Christianity started off as a small band of people saying something that most did not want to hear or accept.
Most of our texts were written hundreds of years after the death of Jesus at which point what he said had started to gain popularity.

As a RC,I still have issue with people following it blindly ;)
 
bay_beasty said:
she is in america and said she was going to bed at like 8 am this morning so i figure her day will start as ours ends.
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Actually, I am in America as well. I am in California where it is almost 2 in the afternoon - on the east coast, it is almost 5 pm. So it is daytime everywhere here right now which is why I was surprised the poster had not returned. S/he had gone to bed around midnight our time (if I recall correctly). :)
 
anima said:
TBF,at the start it was.
Christianity started off as a small band of people saying something that most did not want to hear or accept.
Most of our texts were written hundreds of years after the death of Jesus at which point what he said had started to gain popularity.

As a RC,I still have issue with people following it blindly ;)
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True you do make a good point, but I cannot condone someone comparing Parelli to Jesus. Although the crusades were a terrible thing done in the name of Jesus, and there are many other horrible things I could mention done in the name of Jesus, which are defiantly not what Jesus would of wanted at all, and there has been some truly wicked things done to horses in the name of Parelli..... hmmm,.............

well any way, I do not blindly follow Christ but I agree some do.
 
baymareb said:
Actually, I am in America as well. I am in California where it is almost 2 in the afternoon - on the east coast, it is almost 5 pm. So it is daytime everywhere here right now which is why I was surprised the poster had not returned. S/he had gone to bed around midnight our time (if I recall correctly). :)
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Lol, I am rubbish at Geography and time zones!! :p
 
If I was the OP, then I don't think I would bother to reply at all!. She/he made a geniune offer to explain certain elements of Parelli, has stated they do not follow it blindly and question parts of it, yet the threat has turned in an almighty bashing of Parelli and in turn, the OP. The post did not start with "Parelli is king and everything else is wrong" but you would think that was the case judging by the responses!. There are some geniune questions and response intermingled which I would like to see answered but the bulk of the responses are uncalled for.

I don't practise/use Parelli, but would be geniunely interested to understand more - I think we can all agree that with horses you never stop learning but the way most people have jumped on this particular bandwagon, I think we might just have lost a chance to have some questions answered.
 
Monsters said:
Linda and her abuse to the one eyed horse, could you explain that and why she abused the horse like she did?
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No I can't. sorry. it is a difference of opinion. I don't think it was abuse. but then I deal with severe abuse on a daily baisis, both with horses and humans. I would rather see those things stopped first. I cant/wont defend the man/woman. I am not thier keeper nor protector.

having said that, do I think it could have been done differently. yes
 
DragonSlayer said:
Ok, I'll ask a question.

Mr. P needed all these things, ropes, lines etc etc to get this horse to accept a bridle...

Now, my horse is NOT a stallion, but being a 17.2 he threw he weight around and injuries to humans happened...

Is it the intention of Parelli to get a 'quick fix now'....because although it took a few months, we got Bob (the monster 17.2) to accept his bridle, and 9 years down the line, he still does, with no looking back, ANd we can mess with his ears, he actually seems to enjoy it now, and drops his head for an 'ear-rub'....

I believe we earned that trust.....and the way Mr. P did it....makes me think that Parelli is wanting a quick way to get the horse to accept the bridle.

So why all the gadgets?

thanks!
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I know this was an honest question, so I don't want to put you off. I wish I could answer it. I can't. my opinion is on the other thread.

I cant say this. applies to all disciplines. depending on a persons skill level, on can "fix" a problem more quickly the more experienced they are. some problems to some people, may take months to solve, but another person can fix it minutes. this is no expanation regarding gadgets. I have students that have struggled with something for a long time, but I fix it in a few min, and help them fix it for them selves during one lesson. they still have to practice it or what ever.

example. horse wont stay off owner. I take the rope, horse crowds, with one correction, horse stays off me. not abuse, no gadgets whips anything. but a horse know what you know. if it knows intsantly that it cannot crowd you it wont. the student is abiguous, so no clear messege, student gets constantly trampled.

on gadgets. everything we use is a gadget. halter, lead bridle, saddle, spurs, crop etc. why do we use a halter and lead? why use a saddle? why use spurs? honestly asnwer those question for your self. as for why he used them I don't know. only he can answer that. never seen it done before. never seen any video. great debate in our world about it too.
 
SpottedCat said:
Ok, my question is:

I understand the using the rope to get them to back up thing. I also understand that you start with a little wiggle and gradually make it 'stronger' until the horse gets the idea and backs up. What I do not understand is why you use a rope with a heavy metal swivel clip on it, which by the nature of the halters 'encouraged' by Parelli hangs a couple of inches below the head, and which inevitably hits the horse on the face as the rope wiggle gets stronger? Can you please explain why this is considered acceptable, given that most horse people (natural or otherwise) would be pretty unhappy if someone stood in front of them and hit a horse repeatedly, gradualy getting harder, under the 'chin' with a stick until it figured out what is wanted and moved backwards. I would like to know a) why Parelli advocates have an issue with giving a napping horse one smack with a stick on the backside and yet no qualms about repeatedly slamming a heavy metal clip into its face and b) why no-one involved with the group has come up with an alternative design and shown that it works better/as well but without the issue of the metal clip hitting the horse's head.

Obviously this is highly effective because eventually, to avoid being hit by a clip round the head, the horse responds to the small wiggle, which is the result which Parelli advocates will tell you justify the means. But it does not sit well with me, not least because I have used the same technique, minus the clip, to teach horses to back up on voice command (which frankly, is what I want as rope wiggling is a lot of effort if you can just say 'back' instead ;) ).

Thanks!
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to be honest, it takes quite a bit of effort to get that clip to hit a horse in the head. the mjority of rope shaking you see the clip doesn't hit the head. I agree with you. if it did, I wouldn't do it. for someone wildly shaking the rope about, in order for the clip to make contact, as often as yu suggest, they likely will have a shoulder injury when done. I personally pop a horse once with it after asking nicely, repeatedly to stay off me or back up. no reply...pop...I usually do not have to ask again. the entire purpose of "all that rope wiggling" is to stay safe. to get the horse off of you. alot of people can't keep a horse off of them, and even with a quiet horse, it could be dangerous. level one is about safety, from there things are refined.
 
I forgot to say. in all honesty, if you know someone with a halter and lead that you describe. borrow it. hang it on a fence post and do some experiements with it. if not, go to tack store, one with one of those plastic horse heads, put a halter on it and wiggle away. make sure it is at horse height so it is more scientificly correct.
 
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