Ask a Parelli student....no holds barred....you asked, I giveth.

[Chavhorse]

I have only a few friends who are really into Parelli/natural horsemanship so I don't know if this is representative of Parelli or not. My question is - why is there no verbal communication with the horse? Maybe its just me being a chatty person but I find voice commands very useful, particularly when progressing something taught inhand to being taught under saddle under saddle - e.g teaching a youngster the command for trot on the lunge verbally can then be effectively used when asking for trot under saddle.

Don't think this is Just a Parelli thing. My horse is with a Western trainer who uses a mixed bag of NH and common sense and he only uses verbal communication to either chastise "ehhhh" or praise "oh good so Vardi Man".

Like you I am a very chatty person and have made a conscious effort in the last few months to shut up a bit! and to be honest Vardi does seem to be responding to me a lot better when I am working him if I am quiet and when he does something well just give him the "good so Vardi Man" you actually feel him swell with pride beneath you....strange.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

So are you saying that what people have seen with their own eyes is not to be believed. As said I went to one of the clinics a few years ago and was not impressed only stayed for one day or is there something else we are missing? Should we just have stayed and watched something we didnt like or felt uncomfortable with.

absolutely not. if you see something you don't like, walk away. me personally I watch, as I learn something from everyone, even if it is what NOT to do. in the instance of abuse, I don't walk away, I stay to make sure the horse is ok, or call athorities. I don't run from abuse, I run it over.

having said that, abuse is a fine line, surrounded by alot of gray. what one person may see, another may not. while I dont' like what pat did, and am deeply troubled by it. i have a much bigger fish to fry, and am shocked that few people want to help save horses lives who are tortured into broken legs and left to suffer for hours before a bullet goes in their heads all for the entertainment of a bunch of torture seeking hillbillies, but find a gum line and leision the most horrible thing on the planet.

I prefer, for myself, to start at the top and work my way down.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

God, OP I agree that your post is soooooo patronising. In case you didn't read it in the original thread, I have reported your idols to the animal welfare authorities in the UK. Let's see what happens.

Abuse is abuse - there is NO justification to train a horse with fear or pain - NEVER. Don't you think this is the time to keep quiet and not try and push parelli ? As far as I can see, the vast majority of us, in the UK and USA are somewhat sickened by their methods - and they are stupid enough to include much of this footage in their "training videos for novices".

My stomach churns at the thought of what goes on behind the scenes. Both with the "idols" and with novices trying to learn from said videos.

I am sorry you feel I am patronizing you, and I am glad you reported them. you stood by your convictions and did not walk away.
and I agree, no justification to use fear or pain, EVER!

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Linda and her abuse to the one eyed horse, could you explain that and why she abused the horse like she did?

first of all, I prefer to anser questions that are not accusatory, but i understand and respect your position. It would be iesier for me to answer why she may have used a specific technique, or carried on as long as she did. which I still can't answer, I am not her. I don't feel this is abuse, in comparison to my white whale, "wild horse racing".

does it make it right? no.
does it make your opinion wrong? no
do I think she woud do it differently today (that was like 7yrs ago) yes.

listen, in my honest of honest answers. I have in the past done things to horses, out of ignorance, that I am ashamed of. and all I can say, is thank god there were no cameras and the internet. and even though I became quite successful in traditional disciplines pre-parelli, and loved it dearly, I wish I had parelli before then. I would be a much different horseperson, and achieved far more of my dreams in my youth, rather crying over lost years in my old age.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

So I have mentioned I have my own white whale. wild horse racing. in particular the oklahoma prison rodeo. before I coment on a video, why don't some of you take a look at this, no matter how bad you cry, you must watch to the end. to see thier solution to thier violence. this has been going on every year for 69yrs, unchallenged, and sponsored by some of the nations top products. this video and the first petition have gotten this years "performance" put on hold. until things die down I assume.
I guess because the mustang is a nuisance to cattle farmers this is completely justified, and there is a profesional league of cowboys who do this on tour!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM1I8AnhGWY

If you can find the keyboard after puking, and say you can't stand abuse, then please find it in your heart to sign this petition. it isn't my petition, but I do care for all horses deeply.


it has nothing to do with parelli or traditions. I would wish this on my worst enemy.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/endwildhorseracing/signatures

no comments needed either way. if you agree, sign petition, if not, then don't. its a great way to show up parellil students too, as few have signed.

i am off to bed, catch you on the flip side

 

[baymareb]

Hi t~i~c. I don't want to badger you because I do appreciate you taking the time to post this thread. I posed a question concerning some aspects of the loading in the trailer video early on in this thread and just want to let you know it's there. I know it's a lot to wade through with all these posts but I really do honestly want your input on my observations. So if you get a chance to find my post, I'd be grateful for a reply. Thanks.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

I did read the entirety of the other thread and agree this poster seems sincere in his or her desire to contribute. Which is why I did post an honest question on this thread and I keep checking it to see if there will be an answer. So far I've been disappointed.

thank you for seeing me for who I am. truley, thank you.

now! I am only one woman, and I am going as fast as I can. my eyes are bugged out, and my horse aren't fed, but I am going to watch this 10min video for you, before I literally crash. please also understand I have given up time with my family and horses, and I don't type fast. I am still in my ployester work clothes and for god sakes, I still have my bra on! and at my age, this victoria secret defcon 5 push up looses all apeal some where around 5 oclock that was almost 6rs ago

I am in my jamies, got my second wind and am ready to go,

Ok, so I watched the trailer loading video. first of all, that was close to 20yrs ago, if not older, and NOTHING, not ONE word or technique in that video is what is taught today. if it was, I would run for the hills, and his program would not be this successful. period. there are plenty of wonderful trailer loading videos by students that put that video to SHAME.

now as for the video it self. that is the first time I have ever seen it, kudo's to who ever dug that one up. I have never heard him talk about 'acting like a predator" nor any instructors nor students. that was WAY too much constant pressure, not enough retreat, not enough friendly, and not recognising much smaller "tries'. this mare was not confident in any manner, and it got worse. the video did not end with the horse in the trailer, so I asume there is more that is missing to the footage, but honestly it doesn't matter to me, i saw what I needed to see. I assure you that not only is todays program not even on the same PLANET as that video, niether were the first two, or I never would have listened to a word he said. he has learned a great deal since then, imeasurable in my book.

having said that, I have seen far far worse in the name of trailer loading. whiping with dressage whips, lunge whips, hog tying, winches, tranquilizers, and tag teams that put football line backers to shame. so compared to those, I would take this. but I would have to be on another planet first.

which is why I am so sad that this last weekend happened. I will say it again. I defend the program, but not the man.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

So I have mentioned I have my own white whale. wild horse racing. in particular the oklahoma prison rodeo. before I coment on a video, why don't some of you take a look at this, no matter how bad you cry, you must watch to the end. to see thier solution to thier violence. this has been going on every year for 69yrs, unchallenged, and sponsored by some of the nations top products. this video and the first petition have gotten this years "performance" put on hold. until things die down I assume.
I guess because the mustang is a nuisance to cattle farmers this is completely justified, and there is a profesional league of cowboys who do this on tour!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM1I8AnhGWY

If you can find the keyboard after puking, and say you can't stand abuse, then please find it in your heart to sign this petition. it isn't my petition, but I do care for all horses deeply.


it has nothing to do with parelli or traditions. I would wish this on my worst enemy.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/endwildhorseracing/signatures

no comments needed either way. if you agree, sign petition, if not, then don't. its a great way to show up parellil students too, as few have signed.

i am off to bed, catch you on the flip side

ok, i am tired, that was suppose to be 'wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy"

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Hi t~i~c. I don't want to badger you because I do appreciate you taking the time to post this thread. I posed a question concerning some aspects of the loading in the trailer video early on in this thread and just want to let you know it's there. I know it's a lot to wade through with all these posts but I really do honestly want your input on my observations. So if you get a chance to find my post, I'd be grateful for a reply. Thanks.

sorry, you were typing this while i was watching it

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

she is in america and said she was going to bed at like 8 am this morning so i figure her day will start as ours ends. she must be west coast. i am sure she will reply. I have so many questions to ask her but most of these have already be put forward so i will just watch and see how she replies to the ones already put. I dont like Parelli but I am interested in it as it clearly makes a huge amount of money (its downfall IMO) and some people obviously think it is good. Like i have said before, the idea parelli puts across is a good one, but only on paper, but in practice i just dont see how it works and it reminds me of how communism was in russia under Stalins rule. that is really how I see it and I am sorry if the offends people. But to each their own, i was more annoyed that she called Following Jesus a cult, which made me very cross. but she has apologized for that.

yes I am a 'yank", this is what you call us? and I am on the westish coast.

I assure you all, I am not in a cult. I am not here to recruit you, or get you to agree with me. I have a full head of hair, and while i frequently wear birkenstocks, I do not wear a white robe and hang out at the airport

I have a calculator, and the figures are staggering. BUT, they did for years put forth tremendous amounts of money to go on tour, at a huge finacial risk to themselves, sacrificing a quiet ranch life, and didn't charge a dime. when they tried, last year I think, to charge $200, I didn't go. along with alot of other people. it was the first hint of things to come. I have no problem paying $20month for my member ship. I get a dvd with more things to learn from, and it helps cover the cost of constant filming, as they never know what will turn out to be a great segment, that a student doesn't mind having thier fat yankee A$$ on display. if I were there and filmed, i don't care if they got my horse to wash and fold my laundry, i would not allow myself to be viewed by millions. the camera adds like 100lbs. anyways, no matter how in the "hole" they may have been, they have more than made up for it by now. there are alot of things to consider on over head for them I am sure. planing, filming, editing, designing, packaging, marketing, and distribution, just on their educational materials alone. and when you do this, you have to put alot of money out for making things in bulk. now you have flooring to consider. I am sure at some point they had enormeous loans, and sold portions of thier company as well to finance. now they have a whole mess of employees, and something has to pay for it. in the last two years, they have invented more than a few "somethings". prior to that, I had no qualms about money with them. they provide superior products and unmatched education materials. we the students have pushed them and pushed them for more. we never seem to get enough. and complain incesantly if we do not get our way, or they raise prices. TRUST ME. I am not sure what is going on, I have my own little conspiracy theory, but quite honestly, I, and a good deal of other members, suspect it is at the doing of his "business partner". when you hand over the financial reins (half your company/don't quote but I believe it to be true) to someone else so you can focus on "horses"

well who know what goes on in the office, while your barking at someone at 5am to shovel poo! I think I will call my conspiracy theory "parelli-gate"

I think they may have made more than a few bad business descisions, that are coming back to haunt them. I LOVE the new audition process! I hated when they droped the levels to go "patterns/success series only" knowing this was NOT enough info to teach someone. I almost hit the road then, but at least they have a new levels program, consistent with the new auditions process.

I am not happy with what I suspect is about to be launched. if it is what I think it is, you guys will have your wish soon, as the empire will crumble.

many, MANY students are in uproar, upset, leaving and protesting, demanding an explanation. I assure you, you are not alone in this.

there are several aspects to PNH. there is the program which is unequelled in a complete home study system, in practice not just on paper. they do have instructors, though not perfect, are there for LIVE support. the staff at the main office are so nice, and not at all cult like. they have thier own opinions as well as cubicle walls. then there is the instructor program, things have changed lately, and I am on the fence, and in a hold pattern, left to wait and see. there is the club, which is great, I have made lots of friends all over the globe there. we fight too, disagree, or what ever, but it mostly is all about supporting each other. which we truley do. the members, are a great bunch of people, I just wish some of them could see, how easily they offend people. then there is corporate. I just know one day me and ToTo will make it there to discover some pathetic leprechan with a swollen head, pulling all kinds of strings. do you think he will give me a brain.

I am hoping that Pat and Linda, instructors, and other parelli students will get wind of this thread, and see that it is possible to have dialogue when you do not put people down. if nothing more than to politely agree to disagree. we both want the same thing. for the other side to see us for the good we do. neither side is perfect, and both could learn alot from each other. heck, my first parelli instructor, many moons ago, I had sooooooooooooooo much more experience than her it was INSANE. you have no idea how hard it was to keep my mouth shut and not be rude. while I learned alot on the ground, I was light years ahead of the other students and her in the saddle. but I still learned things that help me with new and unconfidnet riders. so I still got my moneys worth. what she taught me on the ground, was amazing!

some day I hope to be able to reveal my identity, as I have a ton of funny horse stories. but my parelli friends have heard them all.
Me personally, I have done some of THE dumbest things in my life. I would have you guys in tears, laughing so hard! trust me too when I say, horses are anything but common sense. which is good, cuz I have none.

 

[Bay_Beasty]

Can I just say, credit where credit is due tongue n cheek offered a lovely thing but setting up this post, her time to answer all our questions and she has done just that. I have found this post seriously interesting and have a totally different few of Parelli now....I see it as much more as it depends who's hands seem to be doing the parelli, much more than the actually idea of parelli itself.

Well done T n C I am really impressed with you, I hope this is not patronsing, seriously I am, you have answered peoples questions in full and given over you free time to do it.

 

[Thelwell_Girl]

Sorry, havent read the other replies, so not sure if this has already been asked.

Why is there so much 'stuff' (sticks, ropes, halters etc) you have to buy in Parelli? I dont know much about NH at all, so would be really interested to hear your response!

T_G x

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Can I just say, credit where credit is due tongue n cheek offered a lovely thing but setting up this post, her time to answer all our questions and she has done just that. I have found this post seriously interesting and have a totally different few of Parelli now....I see it as much more as it depends who's hands seem to be doing the parelli, much more than the actually idea of parelli itself.

Well done T n C I am really impressed with you, I hope this is not patronsing, seriously I am, you have answered peoples questions in full and given over you free time to do it.

I fell asleep at my desk and woke up to this lovely post. not patronising at all. thank you. I am sure it is a brave thing to admit in front of your friends, and i hope that doesn't sound patronising either.

there is a big uproar in the parelli comunity, and each person, including myself, had to decide for themselves how they will procede. I am sure, who so ever chooses to leave over this weekends events, will stil be practicing parelli, they will just no longer freely wear thier 'i heart pat" t shirts anymore.

we each have to decide how we will interpret the "spin" parelli corporate will put on this. some will choose to continue to blindly follow without question, some will proceed with caution, other will stay for the friendships they have gained with in the community, others will leave so fast thier will be a trail of fire behind them.

I guess our big disapointment is that our hero has fallen. he is no messiah, just a hero. we all have them. be it a parent, teacher, athlete, pop star, superhero, actor or horseman. and to watch that happen can be devestating for some.

as I have said, the program has value in the practical world and has personally allowed me to live my greatest childhood dream, that of owning a wild mustang. I own a living legend to the spirit of america, have trained it from wild to a circus freak, by myself, and I owe it all to the wonderful program pat and linda designed. and I have only had two lessons with a parelli professional. it was all from the dvd's.

I am off to bed, see you on the flip side

 

[touchstone]

Can I just say, credit where credit is due tongue n cheek offered a lovely thing but setting up this post, her time to answer all our questions and she has done just that. I have found this post seriously interesting and have a totally different few of Parelli now....I see it as much more as it depends who's hands seem to be doing the parelli, much more than the actually idea of parelli itself.

Well done T n C I am really impressed with you, I hope this is not patronsing, seriously I am, you have answered peoples questions in full and given over you free time to do it.

Ditto this; T n C it takes a brave sould to stand up when everyone is being 'anti', but you've managed to state your case politely and honestly without being condescending to different viewpoints. Some of the pro parelli replies have only served to make me turn further away from parelli, so thankyou for your well reasoned discussion.

 

[eahotson]

Thank you for your time and patience.I am now beginning to see a little more clearly and I agree, none of us would like to have the cameras on us all the time.We all make mistakes, loose our temper when we shouldn't etc.I have signed your petition.Thank you for the work you are doing over there too.We have our monsters too.James Grey for one.And not everything done in our training yards is exactly spot on either.
I shall continue to protest against the demo.I have to say I would have a lot of respect for Pat (and maybe maybe even Robert who is just as culpable to me).If they would hold their hands up and apologize.

 

[JVB]

So I have mentioned I have my own white whale. wild horse racing. in particular the oklahoma prison rodeo. before I coment on a video, why don't some of you take a look at this, no matter how bad you cry, you must watch to the end. to see thier solution to thier violence. this has been going on every year for 69yrs, unchallenged, and sponsored by some of the nations top products. this video and the first petition have gotten this years "performance" put on hold. until things die down I assume.
I guess because the mustang is a nuisance to cattle farmers this is completely justified, and there is a profesional league of cowboys who do this on tour!

no comments needed either way. if you agree, sign petition, if not, then don't. its a great way to show up parellil students too, as few have signed.

Petition signed - that was truly awful to watch

 

[Renvers]

Yes also have to give credit to you T~n~C for taking the time (quite a lot of time) to answer questions

I will watch the video later - I am about to go into a meeting I don't think it will be a good idea to go in crying!!

I would be interested what other Parelliers (not already on HHO) think of this discussion and sharing of information like this. Maybe next we will be playing football on no-mans land...

At the end of the day we are all interested in horse and the passion about recent events is due to concern their welfare, and I am glad people have spoken up on either side about what has happened.

 

[Voltarama]

We also had loading issues with Bob (the one with bridle issuse) and my husband sorted him out with that one..

He had a lunge line on bob, and sat half-way up the ramp on the lorry, with his flask of tea and paper....didn't ask Bob (who was gearing up for a fight) to do a thing. OH just sat there.....occasionally talking to Bob...and when I returned after a ride on one of the other horses, turned him away and did a few jobs...over 3 hours had passed, I came round the corner to see OH still sat, Bob was hopping, obviously bored to tears....then you know what?

In he went, and NEVER a bother again.

We have a IW 510 trailer now, and he loads and travels in that perfectly.

PATIENCE is how I teach my horses to trust me. OH and me have worked on a few other horses for friends too....with great success.....

What i like about this is that it wasn't even slightly aggressive. The horse was give the chance to work out that ramps and lorries don't need to be scary. It's like something out of one of Mark Rashids' books (apologies if you don't like him).

 

[storm horse]

Yes also have to give credit to you T~n~C for taking the time (quite a lot of time) to answer questions

I will watch the video later - I am about to go into a meeting I don't think it will be a good idea to go in crying!!

I would be interested what other Parelliers (not already on HHO) think of this discussion and sharing of information like this. Maybe next we will be playing football on no-mans land...

At the end of the day we are all interested in horse and the passion about recent events is due to concern their welfare, and I am glad people have spoken up on either side about what has happened.

i've found myself here as a result of the catwalk incident being posted on another site. the H&H forum was linked to the post.

i congratulate t_n_c on her courage to initiate a post such as this, particularly at such an emotional time for those within & outside the world of parelli.

i have been studying the program for quite a few years & have seen it go thru many changes, some that suited me , some that didn't .

i think that this type of discussion is way overdue. often, as soon as you mention parelli, you are put in a position of having to not only justify why you chose to follow the program, but also explain the why's & where-fore's of Pat & linda's actions and/or decisions.

it's nice to see constructive discussion from people interested in trying to understand the philosophy & principles behind the program. at the end of the day, i''m sure we all only want to enjoy our horses & hopefully make a few friends along the way

 

[SpottedCat]

to be honest, it takes quite a bit of effort to get that clip to hit a horse in the head. the mjority of rope shaking you see the clip doesn't hit the head. I agree with you. if it did, I wouldn't do it. for someone wildly shaking the rope about, in order for the clip to make contact, as often as yu suggest, they likely will have a shoulder injury when done. I personally pop a horse once with it after asking nicely, repeatedly to stay off me or back up. no reply...pop...I usually do not have to ask again. the entire purpose of "all that rope wiggling" is to stay safe. to get the horse off of you. alot of people can't keep a horse off of them, and even with a quiet horse, it could be dangerous. level one is about safety, from there things are refined.

Ok, so the O'Connor's are well known for being advocates of the Parelli movement. This is a video from their eventing camp. The clip obviously and repeatedly hits the horse - and there is no way the guy has a shoulder injury!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqy7sSK0Y4c

This is the most recent example I have seen, many, many other videos exist which I am happy to spend the time finding if you can explain to me why this video reflects what I have consistently seen rather than what you describe above. This video reinforces my opinion of this being an unfair way of asking due to the equipment being used rather than the methodology, and I do not understand why a better way of fixing the rope to the halter has not been found if the purpose is getting the horse to back off using a moving rope rather than using the negative reinforcement of being hit round the head with a metal clip.

If the answer is 'they're doing it wrong' (which I accept could well be the case), why doesn't Parelli market gear where it doesn't matter if the handler gets it wrong - after all we've already established that many people who get into this are novices!

ETA: Many thanks for taking the time to do this - I'm not being deliberately difficult, just struggle to see why the chosen equipment is being used - the methodology is fine by me when it doesn't involve belting something round the head with a metal clip when it hasn't done anything wrong - it was stood still, a lot of the time we want the horse to stand still!

 

[Orangehorse]

Thank you TIC for your thoughful replies.

There is a big cultural difference between the USA and the UK, because we share a common language people in the UK think that things are the same (I have relatives in the USA). When Monty Roberts came to the UK an awful lot of people didn't understand where he was coming from AT ALL, because the vast majority of people were kind and gentle when breaking in horses, and took it carefully step by step -so who was this cowboy to tell us what to do. The thing to remember that in the USA an awful lot of accepted practice was more in the "ride him cowboy" vein. There are rodeos of bucking cattle and horses on the TV for one thing, so obviously a horse has to be "broken" to make it ridable. The same goes for Mark Rashid, and Mr. PP, who showed that horses don't have to be treated harshly and got an awful lot of people to have happy successful relationships with their horses.

I can remember one lady from the USA who was over in the UK doing a clinic, when someone asked if they were hurting their horse when doing an exercise, replied by saying "Lady you cannot hurt your horse by doing that, you don't want to hurt your horse. If you did want to hurt your horse, then take a chain and beat it until it falls to the ground, which is what I have seen in the USA." So THAT is the culture where PP/Monty Roberts, etc. is coming from and they have succeeded in the most part by showing that there is a different, kind way to treat horses.

 

[pippinpie]

Ok, so the O'Connor's are well known for being advocates of the Parelli movement. This is a video from their eventing camp. The clip obviously and repeatedly hits the horse - and there is no way the guy has a shoulder injury!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqy7sSK0Y4c

This is the most recent example I have seen, many, many other videos exist which I am happy to spend the time finding if you can explain to me why this video reflects what I have consistently seen rather than what you describe above. This video reinforces my opinion of this being an unfair way of asking due to the equipment being used rather than the methodology, and I do not understand why a better way of fixing the rope to the halter has not been found if the purpose is getting the horse to back off using a moving rope rather than using the negative reinforcement of being hit round the head with a metal clip.

If the answer is 'they're doing it wrong' (which I accept could well be the case), why doesn't Parelli market gear where it doesn't matter if the handler gets it wrong - after all we've already established that many people who get into this are novices!

ETA: Many thanks for taking the time to do this - I'm not being deliberately difficult, just struggle to see why the chosen equipment is being used - the methodology is fine by me when it doesn't involve belting something round the head with a metal clip when it hasn't done anything wrong - it was stood still, a lot of the time we want the horse to stand still!

I don't know who the O'connors are and frankly I don't want to
If this instructor is trying to teach a horse he really needs to learn the basics himself ! First of all there are phases 1,2,3,4, to any command, this guy simple missed out phases 1&2
Phase 1 (for the back up and return 'Yo yo') = the raised hand with the end of the rope towards you, you wag your finger (I know that sounds daft but horses know what happen before what happens happens) so this is a 'hey buddy pay attention kind of thing' if that alerts your horse and he is attentive and looking at you, you continue that phase 1 along with a raised body energy, the moment he responds you take the neutral position and thats the reward for trying, if on the other hand you get no response from phase 1 you step up to phase 2 the movement of your wrist which will start to send 'life' through rope and a stronger signal, then phase 3 is the movement of your elbow with much more life in the rope, and phase 4 is a simple flick and roll of the rope which will almost certainly connect the clip with the jaw/ lower cheek.
This bad example is not teaching the horse, it is clumsy and totally not what I have learnt from PNH.
He should have used much longer phases phase 1 minimum 5-8 seconds, same with all phases, he should have rewarded as soon as the horse made the slightest try. Also to teach back up to a horse unfamiliar with backing up is to add possibly a bit of 'driving game' where by you introduce the CS and sting and push on the horses 'personal space' by slow phase 1 flicks towards his chest, (I personally have found just the rope works fine for me) when a horse starts to learn this 'game' you use a long phase 1 and then a quicker transition up the phases. Rarely should you need phase 4 if you give your horse a chance to understand what you are asking, this was one of the easiest games to teach my cocky/pushy young horse the better he got at 'yo yo' game the more respect he gave me too.
As for the equipment, that is universal within the Natural Horsemanship world and not solely the tools of PNH, you can buy the equipment from anywhere and from any other HN clinician like Clinton Anderson (who by the way I think is a bully to his horses, this technique look similar to PNH but are much harder/ faster and does not give the horse any time to think) Oh and by the way I bought most of my stuff off eBay

 

[suejs001]

Hiya,
((I am really upset over the PP / Catwalk incident)) I started PNH about 12 months ago as my horse at the age of 6 just said 'NO MORE' ... I had to find another way to engage with him. I had to get a new saddle and he had to have time off riding so I took it up .. I have had more critisism than I care to shake a stick at, my so called friends have had me in tears laughing and ridiculing me, but I have stuck by the programme because I can see changes in my very extreme horse (for those in the PNH he is LBE / RBE). If he didn't like this and there was no improvement I wouldn't stick with it.

The programme takes some getting used to, it isn't easy to get to grips with, like the first time you lunged a horse or rode or rode a bike or drove a car, but I have enjoyed the journey so far.. Yes I think there are ego's involved with Pat & Linda -I think it has become far more commercial than it should and a lot of what is said is the same thing time and time again, however, these are not 100% Parelli methods, he says so himself, he is just the one who has put it all together with Linda and marketed it into a very successful business.

I didn't enjoy Sunday (I knew nothing of the catwalk demo) and I was really looking forward to it, but I didn't. the atmosphere was awful and it was obvious that Pat and Linda were under a great deal of pressure.

I don't hero worship Pat or Linda, but the programme works for me, and it works for my horse and that is why I do it. Im not interested in bigging them up, I am only interested in doing what is best for my horse. If this helps him then how can it be the wrong thing to do? He loves it! And I enjoy it because he does.

I have met some lovely people and not so lovely people but that is the same as in any walk in life. I don't try and convert people into this method of working with their horse because if they don't want to or don't feel they have a need that is up to them, I have enough to do with my own horse to worry about what others do with thiers. (and I actually would like the same respect back!!)

How the Parelli spin doctors put a sticky plaster on this one I don't know, but I do PNH for myself and my horse and not because I love Pat Parelli or follow some cult. So don't judge us that practice these methods, a lot of us are just normal people so don't say you can't stand those Parelli People ... you don't know me to say that!

I have to say that my horse became critically ill on 1st January this year with laminitis and had 5 1/2 months on box rest, because I understood my horse better because of the parelli programme it really did help me help him thought this awful time.

Just remember you get good and bad people in all walks of life!

And the equipment, well you don't need much, think of your current equipment ... a lunge line is the same as a 22ft line, 12ft line. Lunge whip like a carrot stick, halter like a head collar / bridle. You wouldn't think of not having this in your tack room, the same for someone doing PNH wouldn't think of not having these in their tack room.

Prior to PNH I have shown for years very successfully at country shows, PNH has helped me show my horse better because I have a better relationship and communication with him, and like one person said the Mark Rashid books are just the best of the best.

 

[suejs001]

Oh and I can assure you PNH is no quick fix!!! about 6 months hard work until my horse got laminitis ... and since I can work him a little bit again. There are 100's of nuances on each of the 7 games to build your horse and yourself and to refine and make things more fun and build trust and respect. I am working at level 3 on line and when I can ride my horse again I will start at level 1 on the riding. And I agree with what has been said it should be a long phase 1 and a quick 2, 3 - 4. But please remember that each horse in an individual and it depends upon your horses inate characteristic as to whether he will be a bit stubborn or not! )! My phase 1, my horse goes , yeah you and whos!!! but that is typical of his character.

Don't judge us all with the same opinion....
S x

 

[VictoriaEDT]

To be honest OP I am not really interested in an explanation of "catwalkgate" - it is blindingly obvious PP and LP behaviour here was not acceptable. I have seen in the past LP throwing a rope into the face of a horse with one eye - she was standing on the "blind" side of the horse all the time and threw the rope into the blind side. That speaks for itself and is why I am not interested in hearing their side of the story.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Hiya,
So don't judge us that practice these methods, a lot of us are just normal people so don't say you can't stand those Parelli People ... you don't know me to say that!


Prior to PNH I have shown for years very successfully at country shows, PNH has helped me show my horse better because I have a better relationship and communication with him, and like one person said the Mark Rashid books are just the best of the best.

I wan't to point something out in this post. I removed the rest so it is easy to see. for all future parelli posters, and those who will read them.

while this was a very honest, post, and 99.99% non inflametory. and while I don't personaly think this is inflametory, it is defensive. (the first part) IMPO, devensivesness is what started ALL of this. I feel that anti parelli people are on the defensive because WE (not I or alot of us) make them feel like they have to defend themselves. so just my advice to sue, while you are right, they don't know each and every one of us, everyone has thier own experiences with parelli people, if they choose to hate us, so be it. it is thier choice, they may or may not have very valid reasons for doing so. we cannot tell anyone that they do not have the right to thier opinion, or tell them not to do something. I am trying to show here on this thread, that we can co-exist while disagreeing. if someone chooses to be hateful, that is on them.

now for the second part of what I quoted, this is the grey area, that so easily gets interpreted as someone suggesting that they feel they have a good relationship with thier horse and others do not. so I am asking non parelli people to read that section, and see that in no way, was she saying that she/we have a great relationship and you don't. but when parelli, infact all NH people, say something like this, it all too often is interpreted that way. the person instantly goes on the defensive, that we feel superior in some way. I want parelli people to read this to see that this is the "sensitive" zone. when you tell someone, out of excitement and pride, how parelli has helped you have a great relationship, tread lightly. if you truley are sharing for sharing sake, the last thing you want is to put someone on the defensive.

because when you are saying "i got this doing this" knowing full well the other does not "do this", often the reply, even if only in ones head is

"well I don't do that, so you must think I don't have that, since I do things differently"

i think most of us on both sides need to just relax a little, so we can truly hear what some one is saying.

I really want to keep the "parelli" side of this thread non inflametory. and for both sides to see just how easy it is to put someone on the defensive. neither side should HAVE to defend itself.

so if you are parelli and wish to contribue to this thread I welcome it, as more people can see that we are normal folk, not in a cult, not brainwashed and love our horses too, and that we DO NOT ALL blindly follow and copy every little thing pat and linda say and do.

we cannot change the state of our co-existense if some one doesn't first stop being defensive. put down your weapons, and ignore the bullets, that way you can see the man, not his gun.

and I am sorry to hear about your horse sue, I hope he is better. laminitis is hard, I had a horse suffer over a year with it, she is barefoot and healthy still 10yrs later.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

way late for work, have to run, thank you to each of you have allowed me to share. I will answer more questions tonight after work and hopefully a few min of horse play before a shakle myself to my desk.

pat and linda, and parelli staff and instructors, I hope you are watching this!

people don't have to pay thousands of dollars and pledge undying loyalty in writing to be an ambassador. requiring people to join a club, only singles people out, and makes them feel more excluded. it only crams a larger wedge in the comunity, and forces your loyal students to seek refuge. being able to have a mind of my own, and say ANYTHING I want without fear of punishment, has it's merits. I am not spouting pre aprroved drivvle, and people CAN tell the difference. if anything, you should be paying ME.

 

[SpottedCat]

As for the equipment, that is universal within the Natural Horsemanship world and not solely the tools of PNH, you can buy the equipment from anywhere and from any other HN clinician like Clinton Anderson (who by the way I think is a bully to his horses, this technique look similar to PNH but are much harder/ faster and does not give the horse any time to think) Oh and by the way I bought most of my stuff off eBay

The O'Conners are 4* level event riders, so pretty good horsemen.

But that does not answer my question, which was why does Parelli not advocate kit which can't be used in this way (i.e. a better way of fastening line to halter so if people bypass steps it does not end up with a horse being hit round the head like that), not, is this kit universal in the NH world and can I buy it outside the Parelli system.

 

[Onyxia]

Thankyou for taking the time to answer Naturally

I agree with you that its a lot of money to spend on the equipment, and people could easily suffice with cheaper versions. none of mine is parelli branded, I found it all cheaper elsewhere. Its sad to hear of parelli instructors who won't teach you unless you have the branded kit On the whole though, its generally the case that as people get into a new thing, they want to use and buy all the brand new, right equipment. Materialistic, yes, but true.

I know,and TBH don't see anything wrong with it as long as it is a persons choice
No difference to buying a top brand saddle instead of local saddlers own brand,how a person spends their money is up to them.
i just feel very uneasy with the insistance from some (and I do want to make it clear that I do only mean some) Parelli instructors that people looking into PNH for the first time must spend a large amount on equipment.

As for the cost of the DVDs, well yes it is a lot of money, but it includes a fair heft of material. my main objection to the retail of all the parelli stuff is that there are people who will buy the DVDs and the starter pack and think they are the next, well, pat parelli you really can't substitute face to face lessons with DVDs, in my opinion, not when you're working with horses.

I hear you Same across the horse world- a stage DVD does not make you ready to take that stage,a DVD/book by a top showjumper does not make you ready t jump GP simply offering an insight into methods used at various levels of training the showjumper but there will always be some people who don't get that rather simple concept(honestly,I wonder how they manage to boil a kettle without danger to themselves!).
Once agian,my objection is not to the kit/DVDs ect ebing avalable to buy,but the drive to get people to buy them at what is IMO an inflated price-it's purely money grabbing.
I have seen very fe direct questions answered,but lots met with "If you buy XXX DVD,you will find the answer there"

People have paid to see the demos allready,it should not be too hard to give an answer that does not involve making a sale (even a shorter less in depth answer then their DVDs give).

 

[Onyxia]

way late for work, have to run, thank you to each of you have allowed me to share. I will answer more questions tonight after work and hopefully a few min of horse play before a shakle myself to my desk.

pat and linda, and parelli staff and instructors, I hope you are watching this!

people don't have to pay thousands of dollars and pledge undying loyalty in writing to be an ambassador. requiring people to join a club, only singles people out, and makes them feel more excluded. it only crams a larger wedge in the comunity, and forces your loyal students to seek refuge. being able to have a mind of my own, and say ANYTHING I want without fear of punishment, has it's merits. I am not spouting pre aprroved drivvle, and people CAN tell the difference. if anything, you should be paying ME.

They don't seem able to handle their own PR well,so amybe they should

I am not anti NH. TBH I am not even really anti PNH since I am of a veiw that if it works and causes no harm it's all good.
The second you put on "colours" though it all goes to ****,and teh Parelli's attitude to "outsiders" has done nothing to make them just one of a long line of methods avalable-the us or abuse mentality has made them(and their product) into a figure of hatred.

Monty Roberts has never(at least not since he came to be a "known" figure") felt a backlash like Parelli for instance,simply because he puts his point across in a simple,gentle way and works hard to ensure it makes sense.
The Parelli's respond with "you don't understand"-attempting to make experianced horsemen feel stupid will never endear you