Ask a Parelli student....no holds barred....you asked, I giveth.

Hi Tongue n Cheek,

Are you a Parelli instructor or staff member???

I study NH as well as event and try to learn from the best available (parelli or other)
I would love to know what happens to cause all the really Talented horsemen to leave the Parelli organisation?

I studied with Honza, Dave Stuart-who I understand was Pats right hand man,
James Roberts- who is still with Parelli and Garry Stevens who started my challenging now 5yo eventer for me(I know he was teaching at stoneleigh as a 2* but now seems to have left also?).

Does Pat not want very talented horsemen like these as part of the Parelli organisation??
 
tongue~n~cheek said:
if you take something out of context or sequence, it can lose all meaning or value. but of course you are going to say yours is the best, if you didn't people wouldnt listen to you. imagine this:

"I know alot of great things, you should learn from my ideas. keep in mind I am no where near the best, in fact you can find all this info else where, at a better price, from a more knowlegabel person, with a better product"

how silly is that?
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FWIW, I like Clinton Anderson's take on this idea, comparing his method to getting a recipe from a friend

"I'm showing you how I make a cake. If you use the tools I use and do exactly what I do you will get the same cake. You can use different tools or ingredients or techniques and you still might get a very good cake, but it won't be the same cake."

WOW, I just went shopping P wants $40 for a halter....CA's are$25, and I do own several, different sizes
 
Thanks very much for your reply T n C. My Parelli/NH friends could actually never tell me why verbal communication was discouraged so I am glad to have an answer. Even if as a scientist and student of vet med I do not agree with the logic behind it I can see we will both be happy to agree to disagree on this issue :) To follow this thinking that horses are not verbal communicators in the same way humans are - neither are dogs and yet 99% of people with dogs use verbal communication with them. I bet the Parelli's also give voice commands to their dogs (if hey have them) - otherwise they probably have lots of chewed carrot sticks (joke).

As another poster said (sorry can't remember your name) you can improve your own skills by being quiet sometimes. I have also found this, contrary to my nature though it is, so I do not discount training in silence. I just find that I need to select the best method for each individual horse and for myself at that particular time- and for me I do find voice commands very useful particularly with young horses.

Everyone will train according to their own preferences. I will borrow my friends Parelli DVD's and pick out anything new which I think is useful. I don't have the personality to slaveishly follow 1 regieme and the thought of training with an instructor that could only use certain methods (even if these were not the best for the horse!!!) just because his guru says so brings me out in a cold sweat. There is lots of me to learn from Parelli as there is with many other teachers. I just need a horse to practice on now :)
 
I came across these on the savvy forum, and just wanted to say thank you. I of course cannot thank you there, but did not want it to go unsaid.
So Thank You from the bottom of my Heart.:cool:

P.......g said:
ive had a look at the h+h forum and someone is answering questions, i have learned some stuff from her,her avatar name is tongue in cheek. wow, she is diciplined,honest and a good ambassador for parelli.She must be a peacemaker of some sort and feel proud of herself.in fact i havnt got a clue who she is but i am proud of her .whoever you are tongue in cheek well done for for attempting to put out the fire.
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l............y said:
Yes, tongue in cheek's thread is very good. You can almost feel the tension easing in her(?) refusal to get riled or disrespectful. A true ambassador. The early slagging didn't get a hold as she didn't respond - very emotionally fit! !
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M......e said:
I prefer Tongue'n cheeks thread which is far more calm and balanced without reverting to mud slinging on both sides (Well done Tongue'n cheek )
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pippinpie said:
Yes and I'm not the only one :) Relax I'm not the Parelli Police as you put it :) But it doesn't take much working out who you are, your doing a great job here, except 'tagging' a few of your fellows traveling on the same path;)
You definitely have the program at your heart, that really shows though in your patience and knowledge (I've seen some of your videos) I on the other hand would not have the time to put in so much effort as you in your excellent posts.
Thread readers have already thanked you and noticed your honesty and belief in your replies.
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I guess it comes as no surprise to me that I am that transparent.:confused: IF you are correct. (pm me who you THINK I am) I may have changed some facts about me, to throw the dogs off my scent, but alas, I am no where as good at that as I prayed I would be.

I called the US Secret Services to inquire about my application to be a special agent. They told me that it had been denied by everyone on the interview panel. That if I were a Zebra in the middle of a 500 head zebra herd, I would be spotted in half a second. :o

To be honest, I don’t know why I am afraid anyways. It is awfully self centered of me to think that anyone even cares who I am or about this thread. Don’t know why I am afraid of punishment. Sadly, as I have no valid reason to feel this way, but I am afraid, that because of this, I might not pass my auditions, or get kicked out, or, dare I ever change my mind and decide again that I want to pursue becoming a Parelli professional, that they would tell me to get lost. That "I" don't have the right attitude.

Afraid I might take another unjust cyber beating by my online friends for throwing effort after foolishness. That beating was the begining of the end for me. That beating opened my eyes like they never were before..(wasn't blinded before) I was embarrased beyond all belief, and sick to my stomach for a month. NEVER again will I put myself in that situation. Not there.

I also am afraid of what Pat might think of me. That is the silliest of all. Seriously, he states loud and clear that it is not his problem what other people think of him. So why should it be my problem what he thinks of me/this? For god sakes my behavior is NOTHING as embarrassing as this fiasco. But in my experience, in life, those are not the ones punished. Part of me would love to take the credit for this thread. But I trust no one. Here, while my hands are a bit tied, I have never felt more liberated. To say what EVER I want. No one to judge me for questioning the almighty leader. I am no fool. I am no child. I CAN think for myself. I do NOT need anyone to tell me what I should or shouldn't think of this situation.

But, I have to say, it is hard to be your genuine self, when you can’t be ‘yourself”. It is hard to explain your stand with out being able to really draw on and share your own experiences as examples of the point you are trying to make. I hope no one thinks in the end that I exaggerated or under rated for purposes other than that of hoping no one would know it was me. I hold honesty and truth to the highest of standards for my self, so some of this is hard for me. but i hope everyone understands my position.

As for the 'tags'. I tag my horse and i either get two eyes or two hooves. I took a chance that a well intentioned tag would gain me two eyes;) And hopefully I have done no harm.

this is really important to me, as I have known for 10yrs that degrading another human being is no way to win them over. talking down to or from a superior view, wouldn't help people to uderstand what you do and why you love it. Snarky remarks only put people on the defensive, and as I am in someone elses world here, I am trying to respect that. to respect THIER point of view. not force them to respect mine. i cannot talk to them on OUR threads, as they do not reside there. I would never go into someone elses house, whom I do not know, and belittle them or patronize them. not accusing anyone of doing this, only trying to heal 10 yrs of pain that I have witnessed. trying to undo, what was done to me by naturals when I was a traditionalist.

This war was started by NH'ers years ago. there wouldn't be an anti-natural movement had we not started with our own patronizing words all those years ago. WE started this, and it is US who should end it. NOT the other way around. WE should be the ones to extend the olive branch, not them.

When I read the very first reply on this thread, my adrenaline was pumping and I was shaking. Thinking, dear god, what has my mouth gotten me into again? Who am I to think that I can climb Mt Everest?
But now today after seeing that I am right, in the curiosity of people, that if given the opoprtunity to ask a question without feeling wrong for asking, without feeling like they will be made to feel wrong if they disagree with you, without feeling like they will be patronized (popular word here) that they WILL ask.

I would imagine, for some here, it is a very brave thing to ask me a question, afraid of the ridicule from thier friends. And all I can say is thank you. sitting here on page 20, after all of the wonderful messages I have recieved, and though I have only taken a couple of steps up that mountain, I can tell you Mt Everest no longer seems that big. And it is only a perception of course. Because no matter how brave you are, and even if you make it to the top of that mountain, it does not change the size of the mountain.
And the thing that I think makes this so wonderful, is that the people who do make it to the top of Everest, it is only because of their perception standing at the bottom.

So I cannot begin to explain my gratitude, to each and every one of you for your contribution, no matter what it was that you had to say or ask, you played an important part in making this dream of mine come true.

I am no one special. no one famous. (infamous maybe) I am just a small fish in a very large sea. And while this thread may be stuck inside it's own little bubble, I in no way think that this is going to solve this problem we are in the middle of, nor that I alone can stop a runaway train. I just thought that maybe if I sent an invitation, we could rally enough people together, join hands, and stop it together.

I honestly have to say, that here, in this last week, I have made a new friend, who told me that if I was attacked, there are a fair deal of people here, traditionalists, who would stand behind me. Do you know not ONE parelli person has said that to me? EVER

That to ME speaks volumes!:cool:
 
This is a genuine question and it doesn't have a hidden agenda.

Why is there need to demonstrate that problems can be solved at speed?

I don't understand or know enough of the full range of Parelli methods but what puts me off from going further is the image that has been put forward that all problems/any problem can be solved by a miracle worker in front of an audience and within a matter of hours.

Do Parelli followers accept that sometimes things may take a little longer and for the sake of the horse in question that maybe sometimes they should be handled where there isn't the stress of an audience. Or (and this really is genuine), it is part of the training that as you progress through the star rating level, the treatments get quicker.

My stallion was abused and he became aggressive and dangerous. I needed help and I looked for it. Potential helpers fell into 3 camps:

1. yes I can help, it will take me x number of days
2. yes I can help, send him to me and I'll let you have him back in x number of weeks
3. I don't know if I can help or how long it will take but I'm prepared to try

I went with the person from the third group because to me, that was honest. She wasn't Parelli and she spent the first session with my stallion and then every subsequent session with the two of us. Sessions lasted as long as they needed to - a couple were no more than half an hour, several were over three hours. But at no point was any expectation set about achieving a result in a set timeframe.

That's the bit about Parelli that worries me. Sometimes there are steps forwards and sometimes massive leaps backwards - I think even Mr Parelli accepts this in his apology about FOTH. So, why is it still "sold" on speed of delivery.
 
touchstone said:
Ditto this; T n C it takes a brave sould to stand up when everyone is being 'anti', but you've managed to state your case politely and honestly without being condescending to different viewpoints. Some of the pro parelli replies have only served to make me turn further away from parelli, so thankyou for your well reasoned discussion.
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I am only on page 11, if i have missed anyone or anything, from 1-11 let me know via PM.

I can't even remember if I already replied to this:o so I will do it anyways.

thank you. and your welcome. I try. I agree that some of the pro parelli replies make me sick too. the others don't bother me, because they in no way shape or form represent me. but since i am a parelli student, I get lumped into the degredation of thier replies as well.:cool:
 
eahotson said:
Thank you for your time and patience.I am now beginning to see a little more clearly and I agree, none of us would like to have the cameras on us all the time.We all make mistakes, loose our temper when we shouldn't etc.I have signed your petition.Thank you for the work you are doing over there too.We have our monsters too.James Grey for one.And not everything done in our training yards is exactly spot on either.
I shall continue to protest against the demo.I have to say I would have a lot of respect for Pat (and maybe maybe even Robert who is just as culpable to me).If they would hold their hands up and apologize.
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thank you. and no, I can't imagine thier lives are easy. when under a microscope, you see a single human cell, and that narrowness prevents you from seeing the human.:(

though I doubt this will fix much, it will make alot of people relieved, and alot of people angry. I for one am satisfied. I can already see the nasty remarks to some of what is said by him, but I accept the appology as it is given. As with anything else in life, we each have to figure out what it means to us, as an individual, and let it mean what means to another, without making them feel wrong for that. But wishfull thinking is foolish.:cool:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ParelliTube?blend=2&ob=1
 
Voltarama said:
What i like about this is that it wasn't even slightly aggressive. The horse was give the chance to work out that ramps and lorries don't need to be scary. It's like something out of one of Mark Rashids' books (apologies if you don't like him).
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Yes, what a lovely story. i seem to have missed it, in it's original placement on the thread.

Sadly, I have yet to get any of marks books, I am told they are wonderful. unfortunately, all my money goes to hay. I give up alot of personal "glamour" to keep my horses happy.

for the record, oddly, I don't dislike any natural pratitioner that is good with a horse. I may not agree with everything they do, but not one of them has failed to teach me something. some do put me to sleep, that is why I like pat and linda personally, they usually have me rivited. Lyons (snooze fest) honestly he has given me some of my best adult naps EVER.

here is the odity, as what little you all have to draw a conclusion about me, I am very passionate about classical dressage, and VERY narrow minded about it. Anything intentionaly behind the vertical, and I freak! I stopped competing just as "deep and Low" was coming in, and we tried to squash it, little did we know, Rolkur was bringing up the rear. (no offense to any one who does it, I already admited my narrow mindedness) I have been out of the compitition loop for so long I was shocked to find out how mainstream Rolkur was, and decided I shall stay put in NH. I do not have half million dollar warmbloods, I could never compete with them. So no point in showing again. Who has the money anyways:cool:
 
storm horse said:
i've found myself here as a result of the catwalk incident being posted on another site. the H&H forum was linked to the post.

i congratulate t_n_c on her courage to initiate a post such as this, particularly at such an emotional time for those within & outside the world of parelli.

i have been studying the program for quite a few years & have seen it go thru many changes, some that suited me :o, some that didn't :(.

i think that this type of discussion is way overdue. often, as soon as you mention parelli, you are put in a position of having to not only justify why you chose to follow the program, but also explain the why's & where-fore's of Pat & linda's actions and/or decisions.

it's nice to see constructive discussion from people interested in trying to understand the philosophy & principles behind the program. at the end of the day, i''m sure we all only want to enjoy our horses & hopefully make a few friends along the way :D
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thank you. yes many changes. Long over due. exhausted, beaten and tired of defending parelli.

this reminds me of something I wanted to say about the remark I am sure most traditionalist hear. 'you don't understand"

how can they? when asking people who barely understand them selves (newbies) are superior in attitude (doing it just long enought to be good at it) or are too beat up from defending (long time members)

I also think it is arrogant and chevanistic to make the remark at all, because it is often taken as they "choose" not to understand or are to "ignorant" to understand. can you blame anyone for steering clear of a person with an orange stick.

sad really as there are so many who honestly do not want to have any confrontation at all. they just want to coexist with you, with out being ridiculed for doing parelli. most of those people, were not here in the begining to cause this war. and have never made a rude remark at all, and are unjustly paying the price of those with loose lips.

so please, ask someone questions if you do want to understand. understanding, doesn't mean agreement. it just means making an informed descision for yourself.

this goes for the superior nh'ers too. maybe if you understood that traditionalist, for the most part, are little diffrent from our selves. and you could likely learn alot from them as well. all you have to do is ask.
 
pippinpie said:
I don't know who the O'connors are and frankly I don't want to :(
If this instructor is trying to teach a horse he really needs to learn the basics himself ! First of all there are phases 1,2,3,4, to any command, this guy simple missed out phases 1&2
Phase 1 (for the back up and return 'Yo yo') = the raised hand with the end of the rope towards you, you wag your finger (I know that sounds daft but horses know what happen before what happens happens) so this is a 'hey buddy pay attention kind of thing' if that alerts your horse and he is attentive and looking at you, you continue that phase 1 along with a raised body energy, the moment he responds you take the neutral position and thats the reward for trying, if on the other hand you get no response from phase 1 you step up to phase 2 the movement of your wrist which will start to send 'life' through rope and a stronger signal, then phase 3 is the movement of your elbow with much more life in the rope, and phase 4 is a simple flick and roll of the rope which will almost certainly connect the clip with the jaw/ lower cheek.
This bad example is not teaching the horse, it is clumsy and totally not what I have learnt from PNH.
He should have used much longer phases phase 1 minimum 5-8 seconds, same with all phases, he should have rewarded as soon as the horse made the slightest try. Also to teach back up to a horse unfamiliar with backing up is to add possibly a bit of 'driving game' where by you introduce the CS and sting and push on the horses 'personal space' by slow phase 1 flicks towards his chest, (I personally have found just the rope works fine for me) when a horse starts to learn this 'game' you use a long phase 1 and then a quicker transition up the phases. Rarely should you need phase 4 if you give your horse a chance to understand what you are asking, this was one of the easiest games to teach my cocky/pushy young horse the better he got at 'yo yo' game the more respect he gave me too.
As for the equipment, that is universal within the Natural Horsemanship world and not solely the tools of PNH, you can buy the equipment from anywhere and from any other HN clinician like Clinton Anderson (who by the way I think is a bully to his horses, this technique look similar to PNH but are much harder/ faster and does not give the horse any time to think) Oh and by the way I bought most of my stuff off eBay :)
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well said, well explained:cool:
 
ORANGEHORSE said:
Thank you TIC for your thoughful replies.

There is a big cultural difference between the USA and the UK, because we share a common language people in the UK think that things are the same (I have relatives in the USA). When Monty Roberts came to the UK an awful lot of people didn't understand where he was coming from AT ALL, because the vast majority of people were kind and gentle when breaking in horses, and took it carefully step by step -so who was this cowboy to tell us what to do. The thing to remember that in the USA an awful lot of accepted practice was more in the "ride him cowboy" vein. There are rodeos of bucking cattle and horses on the TV for one thing, so obviously a horse has to be "broken" to make it ridable. The same goes for Mark Rashid, and Mr. PP, who showed that horses don't have to be treated harshly and got an awful lot of people to have happy successful relationships with their horses.

I can remember one lady from the USA who was over in the UK doing a clinic, when someone asked if they were hurting their horse when doing an exercise, replied by saying "Lady you cannot hurt your horse by doing that, you don't want to hurt your horse. If you did want to hurt your horse, then take a chain and beat it until it falls to the ground, which is what I have seen in the USA." So THAT is the culture where PP/Monty Roberts, etc. is coming from and they have succeeded in the most part by showing that there is a different, kind way to treat horses.
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For some one who doesn't live here, you understand it well. Yes we have rodeo on tv, alot of it. and rarely see english on tv. I remember being GLUED to the screen as a kid, during the alternate oplympics when we boycotted. that was the day I learned about english, and was hooked for life. I would get to see the grand prix show jumping several times a year on tv. and dreamed of someday being rookie of the year. my hero then, is probably in a wheel chair now:eek: I would LOVE to live in a land such as yours where every weekend the popular thing to do is watch horses, jumping, dressage, eventing. even for people who don't have/ride horses. and people riding thru town all over the place. I can picture it now, laying in bed and hearing the clip clop of hooves on the cobble stone (sorry for assuming y'all have cobble stone)

here it is a far cry different, and certainly different when pat and others like him got a foothold on making it a better place for horses here. Not long ago, I saw a 2yo (maybe 20mos) in a round pen for hours in the heat with his head tied to the horn with his nose on his ribs, to make him softer in the mouth. it is crud like that, that pat is trying to change. dont get me wrong, we have many wonderful riders, and trainers here. but the vast majority of them are spread out. i live close to hilda gurney, and she is one of THE rudest people. she freely admits she HATES judging lower levels because the people riding in them are boring and terrible and it is a waste of time. why on earth can't she see the beauty in the begining of a dream?

so we are not all yee haw's here, but we do have a whole lot of them. while you watch olympic hopefuls on a friday night, we have no real equestrian programing except for rfd-tv.:cool: only avail by satelite
 
I've signed it too and I hope you don't mind but I posted the links on another forum so hopefully more people will sign.
 
anima said:
I have seen very few direct questions answered,but lots met with "If you buy XXX DVD,you will find the answer there"
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YES! Now, there are truly few people who have been going to the parelli events as long as I, and even fewer around since the begining. so I have an answer to this. it is only my "opinion' as of course, they did not call me up and inform me of thier descisions on the why, but

the very first tour stop I went to, there was a Q&A session with both pat and linda. they sat opposite each other, and each had a line. there were HUNDREDS of people in each line. all with questions. I was in line so long I forgot my question. no worries, I was in line long enough to come up with and forget a new one, a few times. finally I was almost thier. one more in front of me. and this woman would not stop asking questions. and no matte what pat said to her, she just kept going as if they had all day and she was the only person there. I could see the look on his face. "please someone rescue me" he was polite and never was rude to her, he was way more patient than I would have been. I can't remember now what lame question I asked or the answer, when i finally got my turn. but the next year is when they started doing the, "you can find the answer in.....dvd...." and I cannot blame them. I didn't see them last year, or the year before, and I am looking forward to seeing them in a few weeks. I always learn something.:cool:
 
Tannis said:
I've signed it too and I hope you don't mind but I posted the links on another forum so hopefully more people will sign.
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bless your heart. I don't mind at all, thank you. I am sad by the fact that the petition to eradicate the parelli's has more than 5x as many signatures. really boggles my mind that, the parelli's are a bigger threat to animals than the people who actualy kill them. please some one explain the world to ME!

And, I cannot thank you Brit's enough for your sig's. you have accounted I am sure for a good 50 sigs, as there were only 97 when I posted link to here a few days ago. the originators (seriously not mine) goal is 5000. sad that the parelli one got 657 in 3dys.:cool:

the one thing that gets me too about americans not signing it, at the very least they should be pissed that this is funded by our TAX DOLLARS:mad:
 
VictoriaEDT said:
To be honest OP I am not really interested in an explanation of "catwalkgate" - it is blindingly obvious PP and LP behaviour here was not acceptable. I have seen in the past LP throwing a rope into the face of a horse with one eye - she was standing on the "blind" side of the horse all the time and threw the rope into the blind side. That speaks for itself and is why I am not interested in hearing their side of the story.
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that is fine, i am not here to explain or defend it, that is not what THIS thread is about. I honestly invite everyone to read the whole thing.:cool:
 
I've got a question T-I-C. The post above about the Yo Yo says
"He should have used much longer phases phase 1 minimum 5-8 seconds, same with all phases, etc..."
Now, I agree that is the Parelli 4 phases as it's taught, but when I saw Pat himself working with horses, it isn't how he applies it. When he uses 4 phases it's much quicker. For example, his arm starts to go back straight after his finger waggling hasn't worked, he taps the ground and then his arm is getting ready to make contact. Haven't you observed that when you have been with him?
Just to make it clear, although it looks pretty mean when Pat does this (and I don't agree with the use of 4 phases anyway), I think in a way he's fairer on the horse. Students count the seconds between escalating each phase, and as they do so they desensitise the horse to the phase they are using and that encourages the horse to brace and endure a higher phase. Then, they often have to repeat many times before their own personal "phase 1" starts to work. Pat kind of goes "I'm asking, it's coming, it's got you!", really quickly. And because of that the horses get real responsive to phase 1 real quick. So it's sort of no pain no gain (and again I'm not pro that approach), but it is fairer in a way because the horse suffers less grief, swinging clips and nagging in the long run.
I've first saw Parelli at a Savvy Day in 1998 by the way, and it was a great day because loads of students were involved and showed what they could do. The big hype these days is very un-British and alien. However, it was seeing Pat himself work with horses away from Savvy Conferences that started my move away from Parelli, as I had seen a few other trainers who got the same (and often better) results with a lot less stress to the horse. In other words, I didn't follow the PNH wisdom that you don't have enough savvy to evaluate another trainer until you've passed your (old!) Level 3.
 
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dare I ever change my mind and decide again that I want to pursue becoming a Parelli professional, that they would tell me to get lost. That "I" don't have the right attitude.
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Oh dear TIC .... this is the problem with the organisation as it has evolved into a monster. You sound like you have a wealth of experience with horses, and should have your 5*s or more even! The system should welcome you back for that alone and cater for your indiscretions and personal flaws. If you have weaknesses then own them, you are only human after all. The organisation was set up with the horse in mind, for like minded people, not to brainwash everyone, not for them to work on their own personal issues, not as a counselling service, not to tell good horsemen and women who they can and can't learn with or watch, but to help those who have a connection with horses. There are others just like you out there who have also been shunned by the Parelli system and wrongly so, especially here in the UK with all that EE stuff that went on. They have stood their ground and are carrying on doing excellent work with horses and that's what people care about. I don't go to my vets because they have people skills or don't make personal life mistakes, or don't have any issues.... I have chosen my equine vet because they are excellent with horses and for that I have respect and pay my fees.

The only attitude you need is the right attitude to work with horses, and that makes you special. You however don't need to be a perfect person to have this ability.


I also am afraid of what Pat might think of me
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If you are good with horses, then he should acknowledge this .... what else is there to pass, a psychometric test ?

I feel that what you have said confirms that the organisation has changed since it started, (see Drover's questions -yet to be answered) and maybe this is why it is seen as cultish and revenue making behaviour to us Brits. As previously posted by Pippinpie maybe the more worldly and mature can see through this and extract what they need at the time. Unfortunately the system attracts the young, the innocent, naive and the gullible. Is the brainwashing there to ensure the membership fees keep on coming in I wonder. Because that must be the largest revenue income of the Parelli Organisation. If the Savvy Club membership were to decline it would hurt them more financially than any petition and more than any legal battle.


......this is really important to me, as I have known for 10yrs that degrading another human being is no way to win them over. talking down to or from a superior view, wouldn't help people to uderstand what you do and why you love it. Snarky remarks only put people on the defensive......
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and alas degrading a horse is no way to win that over either. Harsh treatment puts them on the attack too. You win them over with trust and respect, along with kindness, understanding and patience, and you know that. However your personal issues and ego should not cloud your judgement and be left out of the equation when dealing with animals, that's what they teach us, if we care to listen.

it is hard to be your genuine self, when you can’t be ‘yourself”
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Well that is down right sad. We are all looking for the honest horse. We all have strengths and weaknesses, we should hold our hands up to both. Holding your hand up to a weakness makes you a stronger person, and maybe that's what Pat should have done on the day with Catwalk, taken real charge and said this horse has me beat today.

Natural Horsemanship is nothing new, it's been around as long as horses and men have. It takes good old fashion common sense at the end of the day and learning from experiences. We have all learnt from the Pat and Cat Show, we have learnt what not to do, and how not to treat a horse. Especially in public and if it's unacceptable in public it is most certainly unacceptable behind closed doors too. Pat and the Parelli organisation have learnt even more. Hopefully!

So let us do what is best for own horses, in our own ways, whatever our origins and be mindful of our horses and how we treat them. Ask yourself next time you get cross with your horse - "would I do that in public and face the condemnation of others" or even "would I want to be treated like that" If the answer is "no" then you need to stop doing it and walk away. Is this the lesson Mr Parelli taught us? If so it's a very valuable one.
 
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I fell asleep at the computer again, but woke up to something that I thought I would share. On this thread and I am sure it will be brought up on the other thread, so please take discussion about it over there. but since I figure someone will ask me MY opinion about it, i will give it once now.

I have just personally seen the vet report for cat walk, luckily I worked for doctors for 6ys and am able to read chicken scratch. BUT it clearly states that there were NO clinical signs of inflamation or pain, and NO evidence that the stallion was suffering or his welfare comprimised in any way by evidence of physical exam. signed by head vet for FOTH

it was posted on the savvy forum. I don't know where else it is posted for viewing and am going to bed as it is now 3am.

I am relieved that the exam shows no evidence physical abuse.
I still feel the way I do about what happened though. which is bottom line, I wish it DIDN'T happen. I wish Pat would have stood by his principles, and not given Robert the quick fix he was seeking, without caring or regard to learning how to handle a horse properly himself. All he did was further damage his reputation, program, and company.

He has issued a public statement on parellitube.com, though I doubt it will do any good though I always have hope. it probably wont change anyones mind up, as we all have come to our own conclusions in the 7 days we waited for a statement. I gather he was waiting to make a formal statement while waiting for the vet note to PROVE the horse was physically OK. the video of catwalk clearly shows that he is bridling happily now. but at what expense. I for one appreciate the statement. None of this in any way detracts from what I have learned or what they teach, and the wonderful things I see achieved everyday, by everyday people, thru the program that Pat and Linda have designed.

again. please keep coments over on the other thread.

see you on the flip side, :cool:
 
Thank you for taking the time to respond at such length. I found your reply helpful and thought-provoking. And I have to say, TiC, I really admire your patience and tenacity in this thread.

tongue~n~cheek said:
I do know that dominant is not a primary word in our vocabulary. but generally speaking if a horse is unconfident/fearful safety and comfort is thier primary concern, not dominance games. they are in a fight/flight mode. on the other side, generally speaking a confident horse is not, and thus fun, games, relaxation and FOOD are what is on his mind. dominance can come in many forms. if you are someone who routinly braids manes, surely you have come across this once or twice. your horse moves ever so slightly and you adjust your feet acordingly to keep from dropping said braid and starting that one ever. that is a dominance game.
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Interesting example. Personally, I would label this a simple evasion, assuming the horse moved because he uncomfortable and not just because he felt like moving at that moment. But whichever the reason, for me it is a matter of learning not dominance. It is up to the person to teach the horse to stand still in that situation and to put up with a small amount of loss of freedom of movement (and possibly discomfort too if he is hypersensitive). For me it is not a "personal" issue related to our relationship or how he views me as part of some supposed hierarchy or whatever.

it is a subtle one, but they take thier 'wins" where they can get them.
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To be frank, I find the notion of "winning" or "losing" against a horse rather unhelpful. It can get in the way of solving problems in the most direct and effective way. I have seen where an obsession with "winning" -- especially at all costs -- can lead, and it ain't pretty. It encourages escalation of conflict, because the person feels that losing face will mean the horse views the person as a subordinate and "loses respect" for him/her. What can, and often does, happen when conflict is escalated and the horse doesn't immediately comply is that, rather than fixing the problem behaviour, other unwanted behaviours are created.

a stuborn horse that plants his feet to say no to something, is a dominance game. I wish I could show you a clip of one of my videos with out losing my annonymity, but I had a horse once, not long ago, who would not let you touch one side of thier face. initially this behavior started out of fear for sure. i know it was not out of abuse, it was out of wildness. well the people who I got him from knew NOTHING about horses really, and over a LONG period of time this horse became very confident about the fact that he knew just how long thier arms were and just how far (not far btw) they were willing to push the issue, so pattie (we'll call this horse) was confident in the fact that she could keep you from doing it, thus not afraid at all in the approach, and her skill level was cunning. I got a hold of her and knew that this of course was not healty behavior and wanted to get it rectified as soon as possible. it took about 6 hrs from start to finish with patience and just my hands and rope around neck but not tied just draped, no pulling, wiggle nothing. pattie never tried to leave and never displayed any fearful behavior even when I finally got to touch the part I wanted, and all this to get the halter on, a first for pattie.
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That's great, and I reckon your success with the horse was down to the calm, patient and consistent way your handled her, addressing the problem i.e. bridling directly, rather than trying to impress on her that you were alpha by e.g. chasing her in a round-pen or pushing her around. (If you did do the latter, I would say your success was in spite of it not because of it.) The fact that you ascribed her stubbornness to dominance didn't stop you having a good outcome. However, I would suggest that for some people it might. There are examples to be found all over where people were misled by their assumption of dominance into wholly inappropriate responses.

I have a threshold my self for dominant horses, etreme ones like stallions and even some gelding, do not sit well with me, and I try not to work with them.
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Actually, I relish working with stallions - both the gentle, sensitive ones and the more "extreme" (rowdy or aggressive) ones. That's partly because I love the "edge" that it gives them in terms of focus of attention, but also because I find the process of de-escalating aggression and forging a relationship of mutual trust and liking highly rewarding. Always my aim is to eliminate dominance from the equation - to make the horse understand that I am not a threat or competitor or rival. I don't achieve that by playing dominance games! If you start pushing a stallion around willy-nilly you shouldn't be surprised when he objects, sometimes dangerously. Respect is gained with consistent, fair handling, being as firm as necessary, of course, but not with arbitrary punishment or bullying tactics. This applies to all horses - it's just that stallions are less likely to resign themselves to being bullied and more likely to react strongly. Unfortunately, the belief that one has to be alpha over the horse leads some people to up the ante and with stallions that can have catastrophic consequences.

so gee, did i anser the question. is there a strong tendancy to call a horse that doesn't run away dominant. ok. from what you see yes. of the people who are compelled to defend pat, if that is what they are saying then yes, this group of people do. i have heard few of them think about the possibility of the 'fight" side of fear, especially in a stallion. in nature, if you show the other stallion your afraid, then you are either left for dead, or dn't get to procreate because the other one stole all your mares.:cool:
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No I thought you answered the question superbly. Clearly, though, we have different ideas about dominance. I don't show stallions I am afraid, but that is because I genuinely don't feel much fear around horses on the ground, not because I worry about them thinking they are dominant. For me it really is a non-issue.

I realize that dominance is pretty much at the heart of most forms of NH, but are you aware that there are alternative viewpoints on this matter?
 
actions-speak-louder said:
Oh dear TIC .... this is the problem with the organisation as it has evolved into a monster. You sound like you have a wealth of experience with horses, and should have your 5*s or more even! The system should welcome you back for that alone and cater for your indiscretions and personal flaws. If you have weaknesses then own them, you are only human after all. The organisation was set up with the horse in mind, for like minded people, not to brainwash everyone, not for them to work on their own personal issues, not as a counselling service, not to tell good horsemen and women who they can and can't learn with or watch, but to help those who have a connection with horses. There are others just like you out there who have also been shunned by the Parelli system and wrongly so, especially here in the UK with all that EE stuff that went on. They have stood their ground and are carrying on doing excellent work with horses and that's what people care about. I don't go to my vets because they have people skills or don't make personal life mistakes, or don't have any issues.... I have chosen my equine vet because they are excellent with horses and for that I have respect and pay my fees.

The only attitude you need is the right attitude to work with horses, and that makes you special. You however don't need to be a perfect person to have this ability.




If you are good with horses, then he should acknowledge this .... what else is there to pass, a psychometric test ?

I feel that what you have said confirms that the organisation has changed since it started, (see Drover's questions -yet to be answered) and maybe this is why it is seen as cultish and revenue making behaviour to us Brits. As previously posted by Pippinpie maybe the more worldly and mature can see through this and extract what they need at the time. Unfortunately the system attracts the young, the innocent, naive and the gullible. Is the brainwashing there to ensure the membership fees keep on coming in I wonder. Because that must be the largest revenue income of the Parelli Organisation. If the Savvy Club membership were to decline it would hurt them more financially than any petition and more than any legal battle.




and alas degrading a horse is no way to win that over either. Harsh treatment puts them on the attack too. You win them over with trust and respect, along with kindness, understanding and patience, and you know that. However your personal issues and ego should not cloud your judgement and be left out of the equation when dealing with animals, that's what they teach us, if we care to listen.



Well that is down right sad. We are all looking for the honest horse. We all have strengths and weaknesses, we should hold our hands up to both. Holding your hand up to a weakness makes you a stronger person, and maybe that's what Pat should have done on the day with Catwalk, taken real charge and said this horse has me beat today.

Natural Horsemanship is nothing new, it's been around as long as horses and men have. It takes good old fashion common sense at the end of the day and learning from experiences. We have all learnt from the Pat and Cat Show, we have learnt what not to do, and how not to treat a horse. Especially in public and if it's unacceptable in public it is most certainly unacceptable behind closed doors too. Pat and the Parelli organisation have learnt even more. Hopefully!

So let us do what is best for own horses, in our own ways, whatever our origins and be mindful of our horses and how we treat them. Ask yourself next time you get cross with your horse - "would I do that in public and face the condemnation of others" or even "would I want to be treated like that" If the answer is "no" then you need to stop doing it and walk away. Is this the lesson Mr Parelli taught us? If so it's a very valuable one.
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It is now after 3am, and saw this just as I was turning computer off. And wanted to reply quickly as I don't want any misunderstandings. I am not sure if we are on the same page about ME or if you said "you" in the metaphorical "you" meaning "everyone", since I choose to stay nameless. I have done nothing to a horse to be ashamed of. I recieved a cyber beating by my peers and for trying to do something NICE for the parelli's. Nothing more. I was never so embarresed in all my life. Even if I get outed publicly for this thread, I will not be embarrased by it. The other I was.

the "authentic self" comment was because of me not stating WHO I am, and because, giving too much info will "out" me, I cannot completely be me. though I am free to be me, just not under my own identity. don't know if that makes sense, I am so tired.

I don't know if I read your post wrong because i am tired. so give me alittle leway.

other than that, thank you for all the wonderful things you said, and you are spot on in my thinking. we all have weaknesses, and in my "true" self, I freely share them with the world. this would be my only "indiscretion"

I have chosen not to pursue a career with them at this time, for a few reasons. not making any assumptions that they want me anyway, just saying not going to pursue it at this time. I have been defending them for years, and as a student that is one thing. but if I had THOUSANDS of dollars on the line for a career, I don't know if I am prepared to deal with that on such a profesional level. if things change in the future, then I will re-evaluate.
for now, I like the fact that when I teach/train, I can draw on all my experiences and studies to help the student/horse with what ever will make the most sense to them. and becomeing a PP means I would have to stop teaching dressage. that would be like ripping my heart out. giving up one of your twins.

one would think that they see that they are nothing without u$. I know we are nothing without them as well. but we freely admit it.

we are all only human including pat and linda. and all I can say about thier office staff is that they are all first class, free thinking, friendly, just wonderful.

if I have read any of your post wrong, please correct me, I have been typing on this thread till wee hours in the moning all week and it is now closer to 4am than 3am and i have lessons in the morning. i think i may have been defensive here, if so, ignore. eyes too blury to proof read.:o
 
tongue~n~cheek said:
I recieved a cyber beating by my peers and for trying to do something NICE for the parelli's. Nothing more.
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For shame! You don't deserve that at all. They should be thanking you for being such a gracious ambassador, because your posts here are doing far more to let people see the good aspects of PNH than the current, official spin.
 
Can I suggest that all the talk of games and playing is a bit misleading? A PNH instructor will take a horse that is causing a student some grief and say "let me have a play with him", then go on to do some things that are certainly not play from the horse's point of view. To quote a wise old guy who was with Pat in the early days before he became Mr Parelli, "This isn't about playing games, this is darn serious".
 
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