Ask a Parelli student....no holds barred....you asked, I giveth.

[catkin]

Thank you TnC for taking the time to explain so well and dispassionately and for being thought-provoking.

I have always had difficulty with the semantics and labels being bandied about (being defensive myself here I guess)
'natural horsemanship'? - my horses don't live naturally, but I have brought them into this life so it's my responsibility to make it as comfortable for them as possible using whatever tools we need for OUR particular circumstances;
the phrase 'playing' with horses has always made me feel a bit queasy - as I interpret that as the crazy bucking, galloping games they do with each other out in the field - me, I'm not a playmate, I'm just this weird alien being who they usually like to associate with 'cos I feed them, groom them, entertain them perhaps.

On the equipment side, I wonder how many of us can honestly say we have NOT bought something because of the branding........
I certainly have, and I can be extremely fussy about the design of equipment as, like lots of people, I have found that some things work, for me, better than others (for example, I know I am more effective longreining with terrets on a roller rather than D-rings).

Thank you for the explanation of the use of the voice - this is something that has always confused me about the Parelli system as it is an aid I have been taught and encouraged to use since I was a child (decades ago now).

Can you please clarify that I have understood this correctly - it is discouraged at the beginning to allow concentration on bodylanguage but then used later if required. I'm interested because an old nagsman I had the good fortune to be taught by years ago used to use the voice in two very distinct ways, a soft murmuring when reassuring/gentling a horse and a crisp 'request' like trot-on, stand, back, which was to be clear and not surrounded with 'chit-chat' - the rest of the time you were silent around the horses.

 

[ponynuts]

"Maybe you are too afraid to ask, because you feel like the "method" will be crammed down your throat as you all know, we are the fastest growing "cult" since Jesus. "

I am truley sorry, I forgot for a moment I was on a new forum, and you all are not used to my humorus sense of sarcasm. that was wrong on my part. sorry

I honestly find the whole "cult" thing rediculous, as Pat and Linda are not THAT good to have created a "cult", though I agree it does apear that way, and at times, even to some us.

I think it is quite appropriate you use the term "cult" - which would support my theory that all followers of Parelli have been brainwashed! This would explain your completely lame reasons for this despicable demonstration of, domination of an innocent animal with brute force and 'crass' showmanship. If you are making a living from dishing out this rubbish, I would sincerely hope that you are able to diversify quickly and find a new use for your 'carrot stick' - because when people see this fiasco for themselves, they will at least have the courage to admit they have been 'scammed' by a couple of real cowboys!

 

[SophieRIDSH]

to be honest, it takes quite a bit of effort to get that clip to hit a horse in the head. the mjority of rope shaking you see the clip doesn't hit the head. I agree with you. if it did, I wouldn't do it. for someone wildly shaking the rope about, in order for the clip to make contact, as often as yu suggest, they likely will have a shoulder injury when done. I personally pop a horse once with it after asking nicely, repeatedly to stay off me or back up. no reply...pop...I usually do not have to ask again. the entire purpose of "all that rope wiggling" is to stay safe. to get the horse off of you. alot of people can't keep a horse off of them, and even with a quiet horse, it could be dangerous. level one is about safety, from there things are refined.

In one of the "Barney" videos Linda can be heard to say "Oh, good clunk" as the clip hits the horse in the chin

FWIW, if I want a horse to move her body I apply an aid to her body. I might even clunk a whip to her chest if a less fourceful request to back up is ignored.

The most common first reaction to a clunk on the horse's chin is that the horse moves her head, usually up. Barney demonstrates this quite clearly.

Anyway, it's 9:30 AM on the east coast USA and I really should be cleaning stalls and getting mares in. We are expecting a high of 95F or about 35C. I'm really procrastinating

 

[Bay_Beasty]

I think it is quite appropriate you use the term "cult" - which would support my theory that all followers of Parelli have been brainwashed! This would explain your completely lame reasons for this despicable demonstration of, domination of an innocent animal with brute force and 'crass' showmanship. If you are making a living from dishing out this rubbish, I would sincerely hope that you are able to diversify quickly and find a new use for your 'carrot stick' - because when people see this fiasco for themselves, they will at least have the courage to admit they have been 'scammed' by a couple of real cowboys!

welcome to the forum pony nuts.... are you are long term lurker first time poster?

 

[SophieRIDSH]

The thing to remember that in the USA an awful lot of accepted practice was more in the "ride him cowboy" vein. There are rodeos of bucking cattle and horses on the TV for one thing, so obviously a horse has to be "broken" to make it ridable. The same goes for Mark Rashid, and Mr. PP, who showed that horses don't have to be treated harshly and got an awful lot of people to have happy successful relationships with their horses.

I can remember one lady from the USA who was over in the UK doing a clinic, when someone asked if they were hurting their horse when doing an exercise, replied by saying "Lady you cannot hurt your horse by doing that, you don't want to hurt your horse. If you did want to hurt your horse, then take a chain and beat it until it falls to the ground, which is what I have seen in the USA." So THAT is the culture where PP/Monty Roberts, etc. is coming from and they have succeeded in the most part by showing that there is a different, kind way to treat horses.

The "Cowboy" style is only a VERY small segment of riding in the USA. Shall we judge all UK horsemen by the Travelers at the Appleby Fair?

 

[Bay_Beasty]

The "Cowboy" style is only a VERY small segment of riding in the USA. Shall we judge all UK horsemen by the Travelers at the Appleby Fair?

I personally, after reading this post, and some of the other post, but cant read it all. I have come to the conclusion that judging someone on one thing generally results in a poor judgement made. I.e. I am not a parelli-ite and don't really like Pat or Linda very much, however, T n C has opened my eyes a bit more, and reading into some of her posts I realise that her purpose for following the parelli route was not for profit, fame, glory and boasting, but because she wanted to get the best relationship out of her horse(s) as possible and this is the way she thought she could achieve this. Although its not the way I would choose, as I have found that in the past, esp so with my late Dougal, I had a brilliant, very trusting relationship with no carrot sticking involved, but some stern words and some tellings not askings and a great deal of trust, which was reciprocated, I can understand, why people would choose parelli.

Back to my point, to judge T n C purely on the fact she does Parelli, is as arrogant and rude as some people think Parellis are to them. I have changed my opinion on Parelli, and will from now on be looking at the person, not the label. I am a christian and I would hope that people would not make assumptions on that fact and get to know who I am first. I think T n C has done a brilliant thing here, opening calm, friendly and necessary discussion about Parelli. You can see how my attitude has changed through the post, it is obvious.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Apologies first that i havnt read all of this thread so if this has been asked and answered then please point me in the right direction.

The whole 'keep it natural' thing.... What exactly is natural about the methods used by PP at that demonstration? The excuse i have read is people dont understand what they saw but he was there to teach people- so does that men he wasnt doing a very good job at teaching?

I have also read that extreme horses need extreme techniques. From several videos that stallion didnt look very extreme to me- way off the dangerous and was going to be shot until saved by PP view that i have also read. And even if he was extreme- why those techniques? Its not natural or empathetic.

To me it was a man with an ego trying to prove he could do a miracle cure of a problem. And it went wrong. What place do those techniques have in a natural training method?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyF2QqP29DU

Another question- how is this natural? LP is leaning back to put more and more force into that rope. The horse is totally confused. What is she trying to achieve? The horses head is being bruised and yanked continually in her efforts.

I am not yet prepared to fully discus the actual events that took place. mainly because "I" am still discusing it with my self. the things that I feel and my opinions, that likely cannot be changed about the incident I have already stated in a previous post last night. but I did explain my opinion on the 'extreme problem/extreme solution"

unlike many other threads that are heated in nature, this thread really should be read page by page. post by post. for me and some others, it has evolved in a wonderful way. the way people should be talking to each other, while discusing important issues. please read the thread, if you still have questions, by all means ask me again

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

I find that very patronising TL, I gave straight facts, why is that so wrong? It certainly was not inflammatory or was not intended to be, but some times other people make statement that are just not right, I have the right to say what the real facts are and I thought I did that in a mannerly way.

I think you did too. I don't think you did anything 'wrong". the box comment sets people on the defensive. And I know YOU didnt start it. you said it in defense. then it was "misunderstood".

it is just the point I have been trying to make for YEARS with other parelli students. if you dont want people to think that you think you are superior, than things like the box statement are best left unsaid. the rest was fine. and the person took it just how I have seen it taken thousands of times. you did appologise in a later post as that was not your intention, which I gathered it wasn't, even when I posted that. but again that proves my point. IF that truely is not your (ours as parelli students) intention, wouldn't you want to not say things that start the emotions going. yes it is in defense. but two wrongs dont stop a war. many soldiers die on the field so that the powers that be can enjoy the fruits of thier sacrifce. I for one am not going to do things that make people hate ME so that pat can sit on fat wad of money. i do everything i can, no matter how bad someone treats me (regarding hroses) to not make it worse.

I am truley sorry if you felt flamed. as philosophically you are right!

nearest as I can tell the only box I have seen in horses, is the one my dvd's came in.

 

[Caledonia]

I'm impressed at your patience, t'nc, thank you for your replies.

the very BASIC gist.
left brain extrovert(confident/energetic/naughty)= play with me
left brain introvert(confident/lazy/stubborn)=what is in it for me
right brain extrovert(unconfident/terrified/crazy/on crack)=focus me
right brain introvert(undonfident/quiet/unpredictable)=be gentle with me. (you can NEVER hit this horse, break his confidence in you and it could take a year to get it back

It was interesting to read the breakdown of the left/right/introvert/extrovert brain labels. I can see how that would be helpful to a degree for the inexperienced owner; ie to have it pointed out to them their horse's 'type' so they understood their horse's boundaries.

However, here's the first but; if they can't figure it for themselves without labelling, how can they figure it from the DVDs?

And my second but; the four types are not nearly enough. Reading a horse is far more complicated than that.

With it spelled out I can sweepingly identify each horse I have ever worked with within one of those boxes, but also some horses that can switch between the two. I have one that goes from mostly confident/lazy/stubborn to occasionally unconfident/quiet/unpredictable, it happens like lightning, and if I was inexperienced and continued with the assumption I was still dealing with box 1, I could well be very squished.

I do understand you are saying this is a basic breakdown, but I think what I'm struggling to say is that these labels are dangerous if incorrectly applied or misunderstood, and if a programme suggests that you can learn this via DVD, it has to be missing something.

Back in the non Parelli world, most successful trainers and horsemen (in all disciplines) read their horses and those of their pupils. It's part of the brief, and the biggest clue out there for working with horses, IMO. But that is done on a real level, face to face, with the opportunity for the trainer/rider to see and adjust.

I think the less experienced buy into the idea, which in essence is a good IDEA, but not so great in practice if you don't have the innate understanding of the horse in the first place. As others have said in various places, the horses that I have seen that seem to mostly cope with Parelli seem to be resigned to their fate, not alert and sharing the 'bond', they appear worried to put a foot wrong.
Unfortunately some of those that haven't coped have turned into confused and angry animals, whose trust and desire to please has long gone, because those using the tools don't understand what they are doing.

This is where Parelli fails the horses for me.

 

[baymareb]

as for the clip hitting, yes it does hit the horse a few times, but it isn't reapeated. it looks like it it hitting, but is just swinging round. honestly, if you really want to know if it does hit the horse you just have to try for your self. i am not saying it doesn't, i am saying it takes alot of effort, to get that clip to hit a horse repeatedly. ALOT. and skill to do it just once when YOU want to.

This has been mentioned before but I think it bears mentioning again. When a method is marketed to inexperienced people, it makes sense to make it very easy to use and very hard to make terrible mistakes. Whacking a horse in the face with a clip seems to me a mistake that would be bad to make. However, if it's something that requires a lot of skill to do correctly, it seems a poor set-up for those novices.

I don't have any objection to using a well-timed smack to correct a horse but I am extremely careful about aiming it at the face. I also want far more precision in any correction that I use than I could get from swinging a rope with a metal clip on it from a distance, especially when it is admitted that it takes a great deal of skill to do it properly.

This is an interesting thread because it is nice to read some explanations from a Parelli person that are not either defensive or simply "you don't understand." Ultimately however, it has not convinced me of any real value to the method as opposed to any other. In fact, I see some distinct disadvantages, one of which is the confusion that results when a horse trained with Parelli methods is handled by someone who does not use those same methods.

For instance, when I lunge my mare, I expect her to stop on the circle rather than turn to face me which it seems is the norm in Parelli training. Most people know ask their horse to back by pressing a hand on their chest and saying "back," not by shaking the lead at them. Etc. That method works fine and I see no real need for a change in it. I'm not sure what the advantage is to having a horse back when you wiggle a rope at it as opposed to simply asking it to do so.

Not to say there aren't good ideas among all the other stuff but I've not seen enough to convince me that I need to change my whole approach to horse handling. And the good things I've been able to glean are the common sense approaches I've seen used in so many other methods.

 

[SirenaXVI]

Firstly I have not read all of this thread but I am very impressed with TNC's measured and educated replies - thank you.

Secondly, I have never ever studied parelli, but having read the description of the 'friendly' game, I am surprised as I do this will all my youngsters

 

[Bay_Beasty]

.

Secondly, I have never ever studied parelli, but having read the description of the 'friendly' game, I am surprised as I do this will all my youngsters

Off course you do, you do not need to do parelli to have a bond with your horse and to teach him manners...... this is not meant to be rude I hope I have put my point across properly

 

[SirenaXVI]

Off course you do, you do not need to do parelli to have a bond with your horse and to teach him manners.

Phew! I thought for a moment I had inadvertently gone over to the dark side

Sorry TNC that was a 'tonque in cheek' comment and I meant no offence to you

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Originally Posted by Caledonia
I'd really like to know what your opinion as a horseman is on this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918

I have just seen this video and I am upset as most of you but the last comment is spot on:
This is a very old clip, and I am not condoning what's going on but I can say that Parelli Natural Horsemanship is an ever evolving program, I'm sure Pat will agree that not every thing he did in the past is/was good, we all learn from our mistakes and I'm sure Pat Parelli is no exception

very nicely said, I ditto that! Pat is not immortal, he is just as human as the rest of us.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

As T n C is in USA the time line does not allow her to answer questions as they crop up, so I hope I'm not poking my nose in here. But I will give my slant on this post:

The CS is used like an extention of your own body/arm and the horse learns to accept it with no fear, CS are never used to hit the horse that would be counter productive, it is also used amongst other things to drive your horse like you would with you own arm/hand.
Horses are very aware of your body language and they soon learn what 'neutral' means, neutral is the release, so after you have got a try from your horse after asking him to do something it is the reward.


The rope halter is the best bit of equipment I have ever used, it is greatly misunderstood, fitted correctly it is both gentle and effective, gentle when used in knowlegable hands and effective when more control is needed.
Horses soon learn that the that if they resist it will put as much pressure as they are resisting back on them, then when they relax they get imediate release, they become more polite and attentive. 95% of what I do with my horses is done with no pressure at all and only 5% will be with slight pressure as they have respect without fear for it.
You really need to understand the reasoning behind the prey animal instinct to understand why horses become fearful and so many times horses are punished and pushed through thressholds that we may not even have noticed, how would you like to be standing on the edge of lets say a diving board worried about jumping in and someone come up behind you and gives you a push, how would you feel? would you trust that person again?
For safety and respect I horse must learn not to crowd on top of you, and the driving game is used to move the horse away from you in much the same way as horse do themselves.

No comment I didn't like it either!
I too found that short clip on YouTube unsettling, but I have seen the much longer unedited version, although hard to watch even for me I understand what she was trying to do, and she did achieve it by the way, she wanted the horse which beforehand was becoming dangerous to its handler and the others that were in its near vicinity, the horse got distracted to the point were humans did not even exist, so Linda took over and tried to gain its attention and some recognition that she was even there, I could go on but as I would have done it differently I won't defend it further, also that was an old video and I'm sure that Linda would now do things better.

It can have such great rewards, even little kids can do it :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdTFLSONfHY&feature=related
What a relationship. full of love and trust.

Not poking nose in. can use all the friendly help I can

other than the linda video part, I agree with all said. I am procrastinating commenting on Pat and Linda, and I promis I will get to it. so if that is your question, sighs, my opinion is coming.

sometimes you just have to put bathing at the top of your list!

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Could a Parelli person explain this please? http://fuglyblog.com/ today's entry - the video.

I wish I could, but I can't. first, I honestly can't see much. it is too grainy, and there is not enough footage of anything, for me to see the "why" in it myself. I have never seen pat nor anyother practitioner use a gum line, and by the lack of viewing quality, I wouldn't know he was using one, if I had not read that he was. I am not yet ready to comment much on this. as most people who understand parelli, as I have read on the parelli forum, it is above our level of expertise. and this is not taught to us in the program. I have stated in the other thread how i feel about some other things about the incident, and when I have made my mind up for myself, i will coment further then. I guess you can click on my "name" and read my posts from my profile. the majority about the incident are in my first 10 posts.

but I can say, from what I have read, that he was taking away the horse "flight'. that he WAS using phases. and rewarding when he reached forward. i know that sounds patronising, but since I would never do that, it makes little to no sense to me. the reason why I don't want to even really try more than that, is I fear this will come off as more parelli mindless drivvle, that I am sure has been stated by other students trying to defend pat. I am in NO way going to do THAT. I simply cannot explain what I don't understand. and I cannot be any more honest than that.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

as a novice reading and trying to learn - i ve watched latest parelli and wouldnt want my horse tied up - i love him, im on montys forum and respect him much more - i do not think he would hurt a horse to prove his point - as a total novice i could not trust these parellis xxx

well, as I have said before, what you are seeing, is not what they teach, i can assure you that. but everyone has to live within thier comfort zone. if this makes you uncomfortable, then you likely would not get the most out of it and it would be a waste of your time. not everyTHING is for everyONE, and that should be OK withe EVERYone.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Phew! I thought for a moment I had inadvertently gone over to the dark side

Sorry TNC that was a 'tonque in cheek' comment and I meant no offence to you

LOL, truley, I laughed. I have a great sense of humor. and it actually makes me all warm and fuzzy inside, that we have come to a place, where people here, anti parelli, "feel" me and dont' want to offend me. thank you it means alot to me. and even more should mean something to any parelli students reading this.

you don't comand respect, can't demand respect. you can only EARN respect.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Am i the only person who cant see the movie, only a green screen?

try this one, same thing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

HHO is a playground where people who don't care about horses bludgeon them into submission.

Generalisations like that really don't get anyone anywhere.

hmmm

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

I use similar equipment, and have tried it with both kinds, so can speak for myself and my grounsdskills methods in reply to this, if its any use.

12ft rope. What can I say apart from it handles differently? Its personal preferance again - I have no doubt a lunge line and whip would work, and see no reason people starting out can't use one. My reasons for using the 12ft lines are that when I use a lunge line, which is a lot lighter, it doesn't move the same way. I was also taught to allow the horse some drift, i.e. the rope to feed through your hands, not so easy with my lunge line which has handy stops to prevent this exact same thing. Incidentally, my 12ft rope is attached like this:

http://www.naturalhorsesupply.com/attachlead.htm

to avoid any metal clip smacking the horse in the face.

ETA: My 12 and 22ft lines were the main thing I spent my student loan on that year! They didn't come from Parelli, but they weren't much cheaper than theirs. However they have lasted really well, including surviving when some idiot left it in a pool of horse pee for a week when she borrowed it.

I agree with you that its a lot of money to spend on the equipment, and people could easily suffice with cheaper versions. none of mine is parelli branded, I found it all cheaper elsewhere. Its sad to hear of parelli instructors who won't teach you unless you have the branded kit On the whole though, its generally the case that as people get into a new thing, they want to use and buy all the brand new, right equipment. Materialistic, yes, but true.

As for the cost of the DVDs, well yes it is a lot of money, but it includes a fair heft of material. my main objection to the retail of all the parelli stuff is that there are people who will buy the DVDs and the starter pack and think they are the next, well, pat parelli you really can't substitute face to face lessons with DVDs, in my opinion, not when you're working with horses.

yes many different "brands" home made to choose from. I personally dont like the big fat stiff rope halters. I have a hard time keeping them tied, and find my self playing at liberty when it wasn't the plan.

ebay is a great place fo discounts too.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

The thing I don't understand about Parelli is it's purpose... I've seen it used on 'problem' horses with no effect, and people who do Parelli don't seem to be in the same league, competition wise, as the traditional trainers... So it's not really about the riding, is it about having a polite horse?

the purpose, is learning the nature of the horse, developing skills to be safe and have fun with your horse. they teach principles before the goal. in other words, not puting your goals before the needs of the horse. since the program is not desinged to be "performance" based, as opposed to foundation based, you likely are seeing what is the beginning of people learning performance.

you also have to account for people who also may not be following the program and skipping ahead. these would be the dabblers. now i am not saying that dabbling leads to inferior ridding. what I am saying, is just because someone is carrying a carrot stick, doesn't mean that they represent the program.

I know of many, wait lets put a figure on this for understanding sake.

back in my days when I was performing, at the lower levels, I would say that 80% were not much to look at. who do we blame for that? parelli/NH had no involvement in thier inferiority or lack of skills. moving up to the next level, maybe only 70% were, uh, needing some serious lessons. fast forward to the upper levels, and we only had say 40%. I have seen some horrid, HORRID, international level dressage riders. who's fault is that?

maybe these people are not listening to the instruction they are given, or simply will never be that good. lets face it, not everyone is a talented rider, even if they have 5 lessons a week for years (yes i have seen that too)

my point is only this. the lack of skill also lies in the hands of the one lacking, not just thier teacher. each situation will be an individual "reason" for inferiority.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Sorry, havent read the other replies, so not sure if this has already been asked.

Why is there so much 'stuff' (sticks, ropes, halters etc) you have to buy in Parelli? I dont know much about NH at all, so would be really interested to hear your response!

T_G x

well, the equipment they sell has a certain feel to it. the halter is to help have a light feel, and discourage a horse from leaning on it, but is still gentle when not being leaned on. the lead is about twice as long as regular lead rope. this has several purposes. one is so you can allow more drift with a horse. people with horses that crowd often do not realize that they are infact pulling the horse on to them, by not having enough rope to give the horse the space to stay away. i have noticed accross the board that the average place to hold a lead rope is about half way down, no matter how long or short it is. so if your lead is only 6ft long, you horse will never be able to be more than 3ft from you, and since we tend to stay near the shoulder, you have just used half of that distance, now the horse is only a foot and a half away. when they spook, not much room for error for the handler to get out of the way. so a longer rope gives you more space. i think this is indeed the place whre the term "at the end of my rope" came fromLOL
also the extra rope becomes a tool. lots of NHers don't use carrot sticks, they only use the end of the rope. it then becomes the "lunge whip" for driving your horse, or the savvy string to play friendly with. but now that you are using way over half of the rope as a tool, you again find yourself pulling your horse on top of you, not having enough drift.

the carrot stick is used as an extension of your hand and can allow someone to safely start touch a 'crazy" horse and still stay at a safer distance. also for blocking a horse that still just has to be on top of you. the string can "add" an extra 6 feet to your reach for friendly, and also as a tool to use as lunging. the longer ropes are for, well, doing it all again at a longer distance from your horse. but the stick doesn't get longer, because now you are developing your body language and should be able to project your energy, rather than a "whip" to influance your horse.

do you have to have all of this to start? NO

you CAN start with your regular stuff (halter,lead,lunge whip) you just may have to work a little harder to get your point accross. in the end of the program, when you truely have learned the principles of training, you can use anything as you understand how to use a tool.

I can grab anything and use it as a stick, from broom, to a pebble. in the end, it isn't the tool, so much as the knowlege of how to influence a horse.

of course, not saying you need to do parelli to learn these things either, just that it is one way to learn how to do it.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Ditto this; T n C it takes a brave sould to stand up when everyone is being 'anti', but you've managed to state your case politely and honestly without being condescending to different viewpoints. Some of the pro parelli replies have only served to make me turn further away from parelli, so thankyou for your well reasoned discussion.

thank you. i try. i fail miserably still sometimes, and have probably pissed off more parelli students at this point than parelli haters.

'eh, i try. if i have offended ANY one, I am sorry.

I am not sure if I "tongue~n~cheek" has been noticed and mentioned on the parelli forum. I have tried to look, but seen nothing yet. no news is good news I guess.

 

[tongue~n~cheek]

Yes also have to give credit to you T~n~C for taking the time (quite a lot of time) to answer questions

I will watch the video later - I am about to go into a meeting I don't think it will be a good idea to go in crying!!

I would be interested what other Parelliers (not already on HHO) think of this discussion and sharing of information like this. Maybe next we will be playing football on no-mans land...

At the end of the day we are all interested in horse and the passion about recent events is due to concern their welfare, and I am glad people have spoken up on either side about what has happened.

thank you. I too would like to know how/if this is being recieved. don't even know if anyone has seen it. I hope every one reads the whole thread, to see it's evolvment. but i doubt, anyone will mention it. they seem to be set on taking care of themselves right now, and rightly so. as I said, to each of us, this incident means something differnt, in how it may or may not effect us individualy. alot of thought provoking discussion going on. about EVERY aspect of the incident, from roberts involvement, whether or not pat followed his principles, if it could be classified abuse, if they were witnessing a master that they are not educated enoug to question. some discussion about the other thread, and the nastiness of it. but mostly just trying to sort out where to go from here. less about them~vs~us.

i think even though some ar leaving, they are all, including myself, still gratefull to pat and linda for what we have achieved with our horses using thier program. no one can ever take that away from us.

I bet they will be wondering who i am, if they have not already figured it out. and I think if they ever do, they will be SHOCKED to know it is me.

I saw about 40 new signatures on the petition, and based on the remarks about how lowly we americans are, I am judging they are from this thread. I care not your opinions of us yanks, only that you care about the horse enough to sign the petition. the person who created it is sad that more people would rather sign a petition to get rid of pat, than sign this petition. honestly, i am too. so thank you to any one who has signed it.

and BTW the canadians, do this with thier children and wild ponies! but I havn't found much info on it yet, and suspect that the pony is mostly the victor in the race, not the 8-12yo's competing. I would rather turn them in to child protective services than animal rights activists, but hey, that is just on persons opinion.

I aprciate any thanks given as I have given up my life this week for this/my cause, including personal cleanliness

I have to take a shower now and hit the sack, I smell!

 

[actions-speak-louder]

I found a mention about "cult" on another forum (see below) can you explain this "TIC" and can you also explain why students attending Stoneleigh courses are told they have to be faithful to the PP discipline - disciples even! (dvd shown to students of PP preaching this).

What a shame, this man who started a bit of a horse revelation, has an ego that got the better of him. This was to be the situation where we were all to be stunned and amazed, well PP achieved just that, and the damaged limitation began with a spin clip about breaking bread with the tor-mentor. Why did he not big up and admit that this horse, was not a quick fix and was uncomfortable in this arena. For a stallion his behaviour was not that bad, and he kept giving out the signs very politely, he reared when he had nowhere to left to go, he certainly didn't warrant a painful injury. So why weren't the signs being read? The Parelli EGO really did get the better of him in public this time.

Oh dear, what started off as a nice gentle approach to dealing with horse issues, turned into a cult very quickly. The uniform of men in white cowboy hats and women wearing sun visors with their fringe over the top. Savvy Clappy and diktats being issued about what you can and can't do, who you can and can't learn with, what you can and can't teach. Tight lipped professionals and students, almost being trained for this very moment. You must be the party faithful, and now more than ever.

Facebook PP enthusiasts are alarmingly quiet about the event ... dare none of the party faithful wake up, have they been that brainwashed or has their world been shattered? I'm certainly not proud of my carrot stick.

No wonder a lot of good and true horsemen and women left the organisation and set up on their own before they too were roped in. They must all be breathing a sigh of relief today.

Once you fall from your pedestal the water is cold and deep, PP and the organisation must be in a bit of a quandary right now. They need to be herd savvy, or will their ego and greed get the better of them once again and turn this into a revenue opportunity - will Savvy club members soon be able buy their gum line and get the instruction book on how to tame a Stallion, is this yet another course and yet another star. Kerr Ching!

 

[pippinpie]

I am not sure if I "tongue~n~cheek" has been noticed and mentioned on the parelli forum. I have tried to look, but seen nothing yet. no news is good news I guess.

Yes and I'm not the only one Relax I'm not the Parelli Police as you put it But it doesn't take much working out who you are, your doing a great job here, except 'tagging' a few of your fellows traveling on the same path
You definitely have the program at your heart, that really shows though in your patience and knowledge (I've seen some of your videos) I on the other hand would not have the time to put in so much effort as you in your excellent posts.
Thread readers have already thanked you and noticed your honesty and belief in your replies.

 

[drover]

Hi tounge in cheek,

I am interested to hear your thoughts on the lowering of standards in the parelli world in a huge way with levels and the fact that it is so so easy to become an instructor.

10 years ago the quality of the instructors was very high but now anybody with money can get endorsed regardless of knowledge, skills or experience.

I have been in this side of the industry for over 20 years and the parelli thing started great but in particular over the last few years the materials taught and quality of instructors has dropped in a big way.

I learned from some the great horsemen that pat learned from and originally pat was doing a pretty good job of passing on that knowledge(although expensive) but know its incredibly watered down it seems just to make more money from selling heaps more dvds.

I know from my many friends world wide that are still involved with parelli that some of the new instructors have not even completed and passed the new level 2 system and are out there teaching and charging for 'online' instruction.

As my teacher R.H. would have said it should be quality and not quantity you offer (he was refering to the horse but it really refers to most things)

I would still like to hear your thoughts on this?

My husband went to observe a clinic being taught by one of these instructors and he said the students were correcting the instructor on some of the teaching.

This is dangerous and a concern as its this kind of thing that also gives NH a bad name.

 

[mystiandsunny]

Why does everything Parelli take so long? Working through each phase to get from A to B seems to take months. I use traditional methods and common sense, and can get a spoilt, bolshy baby horse to turn into a sweet trying for me one, AND get it to the stage where it can walk/trot/canter/jump mini jumps (in an outline, listening to cues, balanced enough to turn, hack out), within a couple of months. In the Parelli stuff it seems I'd still be working on teaching it the cues at that point!

 

[pippinpie]

I found a mention about "cult" on another forum (see below) can you explain this "TIC" and can you also explain why students attending Stoneleigh courses are told they have to be faithful to the PP discipline - disciples even! (dvd shown to students of PP preaching this).

I'm sure TnC will answer your questions when she can, but as a Brit I can see your/some people's point of view, and this is not a knock the Americans post! but they do do things differently to us Brits, my first introduction to Parelli was at a celebration and I was hoping it would not be to 'happy clappy' affair as I know this really gets up a lot of people noses, me too, 'hands up if you...' yuck! I hate the 'Savvy clap' that is used at the end of most sessions, (it was a bit but that didn't stop me from seeing deeply through all the showmanship that this was something special) It's just the way they do thing differently, A bit like what happened at the football world cup, most of the world hated the noise of those bl**dy Vuvuzela, but to the south Africans it was 'what they do' its their culture and see nothing wrong.
I can understand how Brits see this evangelical, all believing, worshiping as a cult. The word 'Cult' conjures up negative feelings in most peoples minds and therefor Parelli must be bad. I have watched programs of American preachers who whip the congregation into a frenzy with their shouting and spouting about religion, woowa not for me thank you!! some people like that sort of thing but I do think it doesn't go down as well here.
As a brit following the Parelli program I don't let the annoying cultural difference change my mind about how good the program is and what it can do for me, I take what I need and leave the bickering about, money, who's pulling the strings, where bad judgments have turned sour, the internet has its good and bad uses, but to the 'man in the street' who has all the teaching material (which I have by the way) need never listen to another word from Parelli ever again, so I think of it like this, would I really change my mind about the program if the people at the top are not everybody's cup of tea, no it makes no odds to me.
If I were on a desert island and heard nothing about the feeling surrounding both Pat and Linda, I would blissfully carry on with what I know is a good program.
I have only attended one one day course at Stoneleigh and that was a bit boring, repetitive, but I left with some very usefull knowlege, just wish it hadn't taken all day to get though. I have a very good filter capasity that lets only the things that matter to me in and lets the rest wash over my head
I understand all your misgiving about PNH, I am old enough and wise enough not to let the wraping spoil the gift as it were, but novice and impresional yougsters are another ball game.