Ask a Parelli student....no holds barred....you asked, I giveth.

Tinypony said:
Blimey TIC, I need to have a good read through that lot.
Just to say, don't read too much into the word persuade. I was persuaded that I didn't need 4 phases, metal clips or a "pop" just by watching and riding with other trainers who somehow managed without. That doesn't mean to say I wouldn't defend my space with whatever needed if I was in a dangerous situation, but somehow I don't seem to provoke the dangerous situations as much now as I used to... hmmm... The clips are gone and the "feel" remains, for the refined work. I have a video that I will link you to when it's finished, that shows this quite well.
Have you watched Mark Rashid work? He takes a horse and the owner tells him all the dangerous things it does to everyone. He just works away, and somehow the dangerous things don't happen, and the horse makes a change.
Oh yes, my horses are perfect, truly they are. They always want to be right, I just need to bear that in mind. Someone once said to me that horses are the dolphins of the earth, they were put here to teach mankind. They are as tolerant as dolphins as well maybe?
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fair enough;) No I havn't seen mark rashid, but have heard much about him, and he is someone I would like to know more about. I only chose parelli because it had the most to offer me overall. since I don't compete anymore, it offers goals and achievements to strive for and the all mighty material recognition us humans so prize.....ribbons!:rolleyes: I am proud of what I have achieved and what my parelli friends have achieved, and will say again, there are some kids out there taking this stuff by the reins and running with it. these kids are true horsmen, and cant even VOTE. they are the stars of the future. not I. I am no master horseman. My horses are not dangerous, but in what I do, many are. I am sure Mark can walk right in and never a ripple in the water does he create. and surely that is something to strive for, and rest assured, when done with questions, I will be on the prowl again.

I have always beaten to the rhythm of my own drum. I have little money and do the best I can with what I can afford.
 
Graureiter said:
@ TnC: Thank You very much for the time and effort you are putting into this thread.
Have you by any chance read "Top Horse Training Methods Explored" by Annie Wilson ? I just found it in a Halfprice Bookstore today.
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thank you and your welcome;) I have never heard of it, but will put it on my list of must reads. I will say this, as I am not, um rich, I will gladly hand over my mailing address for anyone who wants to send me books you think I should read;) call it the enlighted horsewoman foundation! all donations welcome:cool:
 
ponynuts said:
No you are right - I didn't read all of your postings because I had read enough, I don't need to hear from anyone who believes that the best way to put a bridle on a horse is to tie its leg up with a rope, you could never in a million years convince me or thousands of other very experienced horse owners any different. I stick by my original thoughts of Parelli - if you are prepared to defend this 'showmans' public humiliation of that poor horse then so be it - but please do not patronise me or the majority of the equine world who have enough sense to see him and his wife for what they are - no more than circus horse trainers with no respect for horses whatsoever! Now - I'll leave you to your few moments of fame, here anonymous on a forum - following in the footsteps of your 'leader', praying on those with less experience than yourself and leave you to can a few bucks from other people's misfortunes! I hope that by next weeks edition of H&H things may look a little different for the Pratelli's. :p
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ROFLMFAO! I just knew my evil plot would be discovered, to fly to a far away land and bilk thousands of horse owners, out of millions of dollars, when I dont' have 2 penies to rub together to walk across the street! Someone call america's most wanted, turn me in before I do more harm! Ahh haa haa, I needed a good laugh!

I wish I could have picked two thumbs up icons for this one!
 
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Sadly life is too short to read all of this pirelli post......To me, lots of chucking ropes around does not make a horse, and I did watch it in action with a local horse that was bought to our local show on Sat.......did it make a difference, did she jump on it and do a class - no!
Could it be a method for people to make money from those who don't know too much, or have a difficult horse - well. yes maybe?
Does it work with those who really know what they are doing? Probably yes....can you tell those who are not natural horse people how to do it.....probably not!
Should we go back to grassroutes horsemanship - yes please! And lets hope there are still some people out there who remember how to do the proper breaking process, and can teach others......
 
dressedkez said:
Sadly life is too short to read all of this pirelli post......To me, lots of chucking ropes around does not make a horse, and I did watch it in action with a local horse that was bought to our local show on Sat.......did it make a difference, did she jump on it and do a class - no!
Could it be a method for people to make money from those who don't know too much, or have a difficult horse - well. yes maybe?
Does it work with those who really know what they are doing? Probably yes....can you tell those who are not natural horse people how to do it.....probably not!
Should we go back to grassroutes horsemanship - yes please! And lets hope there are still some people out there who remember how to do the proper breaking process, and can teach others......
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After reading that I wasn't sure what your question was, could you please ask again? or were you just making a statement :confused:
 
pippinpie said:
After reading that I wasn't sure what your question was, could you please ask again? or were you just making a statement :confused:
Click to expand...

I think it was both.........How many horses are really 'sorted out' using Pirelli? And is Pirelli a short-cut for those who have no horsemanship skills but want some sort of utopian answer for their horses? And how much money do 'professional' pirelli people make out of those poor people who can't cope with their horses, and hope that Pirelli is the panecea? And how many real horse people are still out there who can turn horses around - but can't possibly give them back to someone who does not have a clue? Tell me do the Pirelli experts ever have a faliure???
 
dressedkez said:
I think it was both.........How many horses are really 'sorted out' using Pirelli?
I don't know, mine have benifited thats for sure.
And is Pirelli a short-cut for those who have no horsemanship skills but want some sort of utopian answer for their horses?
No there are no short cuts that I know of. It starts of very very basic so it doesn't skip anthing.
And how much money do 'professional' pirelli people make out of those poor people who can't cope with their horses,
I don't know, probably the same as any hard working BHS instructor.
and hope that Pirelli is the panecea? And how many real horse people are still out there who can turn horses around - but can't possibly give them back to someone who does not have a clue?
There probably just as many people out there that don't have a clue as their are Parelli people

Tell me do the Pirelli experts ever have a faliure???
Not sure what you mean!!!:confused:
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Maybe TnC will be more helpful
 
I made this for my new friends, it sums up how I feel right now. I guess sometimes you don't realize how bonded you are till you break free.
I am full aware of the bubble this thread is in, that it doesnt represent the real world, and I know it wont last for ever, but the friends I have made here will. All the horses in the video are wild, some pics taken by my best friend, and the last pic is of my friends mustang, Kai, while still in a holding pen before she adopted him. Anyways, this may be lame and corny, but i think, for now, it says it all for me:cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3fWYzPtNTw

Lyrics to the song
Not Ready to Make Nice
by the Dixie Chicks


Forgive?
sounds good,
Forget?
I’m not sure I could
They say
time heals everything
But I’m still waiting

I’m through
with doubt
There’s nothing left for me
to figure out
I’ve paid a price
And I’ll keep payin

I’m not ready to make nice
I’m not ready to back down
I’m still mad as hell and
I don’t have time to go
round and round and round

It’s too late to make it right
I Probly wouldn’t if I could
‘Cuz I’m mad as hell
Can’t bring myself
to do what it is you think I should

I know you said
Can’t you just get over it
It turned my whole world around
And I kinda like it

I made my bed and I sleep like a baby
I got no regrets and I don’t mind sayin
It’s a sad sad story when a mother will teach her
Daughter that she ought to hate a perfect stranger
And how in the world can the words that I’ve said
Send somebody so over the edge
That they’d write me a letter
Saying that I’d better
Shut up and sing
Or my life would be over

I’m not ready to make nice
I’m not ready to back down
I’m still mad as hell and
I don’t have time to go round and round and round
It’s too late to make it right
I Probly wouldn’t if I could
‘Cuz I’m mad as hell
Can’t bring myself
to do what it is you think I should
(repeat)

What it is I you think I should

Forgive,
sounds good
Forget,
I’m not sure I could
They say time
heals everything
But I’m still waiting
 
OK, I am totally PMS'g but OMG
I am in utter tears, thank you for signing the petition, it is over 600 now, and I cannot thank you brits enough!
tears of joy, that maybe we get enough, for the originator to take this to the Oklahoma representatives and first stop the prison rodeo, then onto the cowboy sporting events.

THANK YOU!
THANK YOU!
THANK YOU!
THANK YOU!
THANK YOU!
THANK YOU!

if we get our goal of 5000 I will out myself!:cool:
 
fburton said:
Thank you for taking the time to respond at such length. I found your reply helpful and thought-provoking. And I have to say, TiC, I really admire your patience and tenacity in this thread.

thank you, I have about run out of steam.

Interesting example. Personally, I would label this a simple evasion, assuming the horse moved because he uncomfortable and not just because he felt like moving at that moment. But whichever the reason, for me it is a matter of learning not dominance. It is up to the person to teach the horse to stand still in that situation and to put up with a small amount of loss of freedom of movement (and possibly discomfort too if he is hypersensitive). For me it is not a "personal" issue related to our relationship or how he views me as part of some supposed hierarchy or whatever.

Potayto, potahto. yes it is an evasion, and yes they have to learn to accept a loss of freedom. i think this is just a matter of a different way to look at the same thing, and get the same results, where the only difference is our words

To be frank, I find the notion of "winning" or "losing" against a horse rather unhelpful. It can get in the way of solving problems in the most direct and effective way. I have seen where an obsession with "winning" -- especially at all costs -- can lead, and it ain't pretty. It encourages escalation of conflict, because the person feels that losing face will mean the horse views the person as a subordinate and "loses respect" for him/her. What can, and often does, happen when conflict is escalated and the horse doesn't immediately comply is that, rather than fixing the problem behaviour, other unwanted behaviours are created.

the parelli program does not promote winning at all cost, current circumstances withstanding. they teach to play the games and win, but not it a way that the horse feels like a loser either. I can say again, semantics. if you ask your horse to do something and he doesn't what do you do? you keep asking till you get the desired response. if you really examine it, it really is just about semantics. it is the mind set that really is important. and we dont practice win at all cost, so the mind frame is good

That's great, and I reckon your success with the horse was down to the calm, patient and consistent way your handled her, addressing the problem i.e. bridling directly, rather than trying to impress on her that you were alpha by e.g. chasing her in a round-pen or pushing her around. (If you did do the latter, I would say your success was in spite of it not because of it.) The fact that you ascribed her stubbornness to dominance didn't stop you having a good outcome. However, I would suggest that for some people it might. There are examples to be found all over where people were misled by their assumption of dominance into wholly inappropriate responses.

I think the theory of "alpha" is greatly misunderstood, in my experience. now I am not saying YOU misunderstand, just speaking in generalities, that it seems to be linked to a myth of dominating and being mean. it isn't. no i did not round pen this horse to death. there was some roundpenning but probably not in the way you are thinking. IF this horse left me (wild horse here ok) and decided on it's own to go running around, i let her, then asked her to do a bit more than she wanted. then gave her the opportunity to come back. if accepted, great come on in, if not, well then keep going. I left it at, your idea (not with me) or my idea (with me) but not in between. and with me, could be 10 feet away. i was looking for her to be with me mentally, not somewhere else. i do not doubt that people have problems when in the mindframe of dominating the horse. but parelli doesn't teach domination, I have not spent my time learning from people that come from that mind frame, so I really connot speak about that theory. we look at alpha, as taught by parelli, that dominance games are for establishing a LEADER, not a dominator. who leads, who follows. and if we do it right, we will go together.

Actually, I relish working with stallions - both the gentle, sensitive ones and the more "extreme" (rowdy or aggressive) ones. That's partly because I love the "edge" that it gives them in terms of focus of attention, but also because I find the process of de-escalating aggression and forging a relationship of mutual trust and liking highly rewarding. Always my aim is to eliminate dominance from the equation - to make the horse understand that I am not a threat or competitor or rival. I don't achieve that by playing dominance games! If you start pushing a stallion around willy-nilly you shouldn't be surprised when he objects, sometimes dangerously. Respect is gained with consistent, fair handling, being as firm as necessary, of course, but not with arbitrary punishment or bullying tactics. This applies to all horses - it's just that stallions are less likely to resign themselves to being bullied and more likely to react strongly. Unfortunately, the belief that one has to be alpha over the horse leads some people to up the ante and with stallions that can have catastrophic consequences.

you have a special gift, stallions are not for everyone. I recognize that and so does parelli. the prgram suggests you not start with a stallion, and if you have one, you should get proffesional guidence. I think it is sound advice in any method. i for one, not comfortable with them. i stop working with them when the hormones come in. but it is a preference. i dont even like handling my friends 29" mini stud colt now that his hormones are in. not out of fear, out of a distaste for stallion behavior. I can handle them fine, i just prefer not to, and prefer one that already has manners. i feel it is best left for people better than myself, with bigger balls than I

No I thought you answered the question superbly. Clearly, though, we have different ideas about dominance. I don't show stallions I am afraid, but that is because I genuinely don't feel much fear around horses on the ground, not because I worry about them thinking they are dominant. For me it really is a non-issue.

thank you. and yes we do have very different views about dominance. like i said, you have a gift that many just dont posses. parelli teaches people not to take that chance, unless you are already familiar with handling them

I realize that dominance is pretty much at the heart of most forms of NH, but are you aware that there are alternative viewpoints on this matter?

I guess that really is dependent on what "dominance" means to the person, but I havn't checked out every NH method, so I cant speak to the accuracy of that.
Click to expand...

:cool:
 
fburton said:
For shame! You don't deserve that at all. They should be thanking you for being such a gracious ambassador, because your posts here are doing far more to let people see the good aspects of PNH than the current, official spin.
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thank you, I have to admit, what i did was done with great passion, not great intelligence. knee jerk reaction that blew up in my face, like birthday cake. looks all nice and sweet with the frostins and the flowers, but when packed with TNT 2" from your face, has a whole 'nuther flavor that is not so tasty!

but the "punishment' did not fit the "crime":eek:
 
Tinypony said:
Can I suggest that all the talk of games and playing is a bit misleading? A PNH instructor will take a horse that is causing a student some grief and say "let me have a play with him", then go on to do some things that are certainly not play from the horse's point of view. To quote a wise old guy who was with Pat in the early days before he became Mr Parelli, "This isn't about playing games, this is darn serious".
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying. PNH is like anything other method out there. it just isnt perfect. but i said in another answer, pat really is good about using words to help with a mind set. to stay in the mind set of "playing" helps to keep things like "dominance" to a minimum. does it work for everyone. no? is it perfect? no

I think you and I could sit and talk for hours and explore alot of things together. you are quite knowlegable, and I would love to probe....I mean....pic your brain. if you ever find yourself state side.....look me up, we'll do tea. well you can do tea, ptewy, I will do dr.pepper!:cool:
 
Jennyharvey said:
T n C, its great that you are answering these questions for people. I really think its helping in peoples understanding of parelli and NH.

About the wild horse race and rodeos, ive been against them for a long time. But not only those. Steer wrestling, roping and bronc riding is all such barbaric cruelty.
I dont know if many people here has seen the recent flicka film. It had a few scenes with a wild horse race, and i think 2 horses actually died during filming. I always like Tim mgraw's music(who was in the film), but he never spoke out about this so know im not much of a fan.

Its strange though to think that for a country that has produced so many amazing horsemen and woman, that this sort of thing is still so popular. Plus, a lot of great horse trainers started out as bronc riders or bull riders before becoming trainers. Strange.
At least they have one advantage, of being unafraid of backing a bucking youngster.
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yes, with freedom comes great responsibility, as people are largely free to do as they please. until someone sees that it does harm and stops others from thier right to freedom. then we can step in. but when lobbyist and special intrest groups with fat wads of money, can pull strings, it can make things an uphill battle. for us here, the mustang is in great turmoil. the cattle industry largly dictates this as they line the pockets of polititians, just like the oil companies to get what they want. the mustang irradicated. luckily, the only thing i like about our current president, is that his daughter is a horse lover and mustang lover and we all would like to act while we have at least one president who can help. bush being a texas cattle/oil man did no help. it may prove to be the only thing he does that I like.....oooops, i shut up now!

again thanks for signing.:cool:
 
baymareb said:
I agree. It saddens and frustrates me. Here in California, there is a certain amount of outrage over so-called "Mexican rodeo" in which an event called "tripping" is practiced. It is indeed horrible, involving a horse let loose in an arena and then a rider (or maybe a pair of riders) rope the legs of the horse in order to trip it.

Horses are routinely cut, bruised, lamed and suffer broken bones in these events and the outrage is certainly justified. Especially because defenders use the excuse that it is a cultural and traditional thing (much like the defenders of bullfighting).

And yet rodeo is defended with the same excuse. Tradition alone is no reason to keep a practice if time and experience shows the practice to be cruel or detrimental or unfair or any other negative. I don't care if a bunch of cowboys in the 18th century worked this way - this is the 21st century and I would hope we've evolved!

Sorry for the rant. Stuff like this p***s me off.
Click to expand...

we do have many horrible animal problems. the first petition at least got the prison rodeo cancelled this year, but it is more put on hold, and they gave the reason of funding. NOW there are F@#$%^ fundraisers to try to raise money to put it back on, because of revenue loss to local business. please?! a two day anual event, saves the town from bankruptcy. helooooo we are not stupid!

ranting too! sorry:cool:
 
Tinypony said:
Thanks for all this discussion TIC.
RE the clip, it's just not needed. Other trainers and their students manage to get beautiful subtle communication without ever having to even risk metal clunking on their horse's face. I think the problem is that Parelli is so entrenched in the use of their phases. I'm taught now to ask softly with the initial cue (like phase 1), but then support it with different "ask" if the horse doesn't understand. As a result I have found that I can do way, way less to achieve much more with my horse, and without putting them under so much pressure. I don't increase my initial cue to get a horse to respond. (No touch the hair, touch the skin, touch the muscle, touch the bone...).
Probably the reason others manage so well with ropes that link directly to their halters is because they never feel the need to swing their rope about in the Parelli way.
I do know how much the clips hit the face, and of course it isn't with every swing, but even once is unacceptable to me. Sometimes those halters fit so badly that the clips make contact with the face just because the horse gets some energy going. Not fair.
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I get what you are saying. truly i do. but i promised I would explain parelli. and sometimes that means setting my own ideas aside. i may state them, but do state them seperately. I honestly heard what you said, and it is on my to do list for things to ponder and investigate. and parelli does not have to be done with a parelli rope. one can choose to do it with a rope without a clip.:cool:
 
baymareb said:
That is probably the closest thing to a clear explanation of the LP video I have seen. It seemed to me that she was trying to gain the horse's attention but it did and still does seem a ridiculous way to do so.

My horse gets distracted. She's young, she's curious and she sees shiny things and butterflies all the time. Instead of flapping a rope at her for an interminable amount of time, I put her to work. I can't see how the method in the video - no matter how expertly applied - would work better than giving the horse something to do. I guess I just don't see the point.

Nor do I see the point of the situation with Catwalk. Whether or not either one of those events was abuse, I'll leave to those who witnessed them in their entirety, but I fail to see the benefit of working with Catwalk the way he was worked with. Perhaps he is being bridled now - as I understand, he was being bridled before, Whitaker had only had him 8 weeks and I think it's likely that less drastic measures would have solved the issue. We've had dozens of people tell how they solved similar issues without all the drama.

So for those who keep saying, "you just don't understand" - no, I guess I don't. But I really don't want to either because I can't imagine going through all that to accomplish things I've accomplished much easier my own way.
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at least you can say you asked, listened to the answer and made up your own mind. we should be nothing if not honest with ourselves.

of course there is way more to parelli than that. like the brown spot on the apple:cool:
 
Alyth said:
Sorry T i C but this is another accolade!! Sincere congrats to you, and most of the other posters to enable this fantastic discussion to take place. I think this is a first!!! Everyone listening and contributing with very little anxt!! I have been studying the original Parelli programme for about 12 years now. What impressed me when I first audited a clinic was how everything I learned as a child (Pony Club to A certificate pass) was given a logical sequence and a reason for doing it. "It's so old it's new again". However I have been backing away for about 4 years - since the "Linda levels" came out with THAT video on them!!! I have seen Pat live 2ce. The first time I was impressed, even though there were a couple of things I questioned!! The second time I was more impressed by his students. I felt he was a bit "over the top" - and that was about 5 or 6 years ago now. The one thing that really put me off was being told to accept what is said, not to question, just to "do it"!!! Me - I question everything!!!

Gotta say - FADJUR WAS GORGEOUS!!! One of my pin ups!!

Alyth
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taking a bow here. more like the one the asains do, hands together, not the showboat kind. thank you. but i did nothing more than say "what if" and knee jerk a thread. I couldnt' have done it without people doing it with me. so everyone should take a bow, for sure, lets all curtsie like shirly temple.


I couldnt' agree with you more. although I like the linda levels. i sort out anything i don't agree with and move on. lots of golden nuggets in there for me. and people have different learning styles too. but yes, downhill slide in my book for sure. dont know how much more the structure can hold. time wil tell for sure. gotta wait and see:cool:
 
baymareb said:
That is probably the closest thing to a clear explanation of the LP video I have seen. It seemed to me that she was trying to gain the horse's attention but it did and still does seem a ridiculous way to do so.

My horse gets distracted. She's young, she's curious and she sees shiny things and butterflies all the time. Instead of flapping a rope at her for an interminable amount of time, I put her to work. I can't see how the method in the video - no matter how expertly applied - would work better than giving the horse something to do. I guess I just don't see the point.

Nor do I see the point of the situation with Catwalk. Whether or not either one of those events was abuse, I'll leave to those who witnessed them in their entirety, but I fail to see the benefit of working with Catwalk the way he was worked with. Perhaps he is being bridled now - as I understand, he was being bridled before, Whitaker had only had him 8 weeks and I think it's likely that less drastic measures would have solved the issue. We've had dozens of people tell how they solved similar issues without all the drama.

So for those who keep saying, "you just don't understand" - no, I guess I don't. But I really don't want to either because I can't imagine going through all that to accomplish things I've accomplished much easier my own way.
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Thank you. I don't know who all would agree with me on my explaination on it, but none the less that is how I see it.

Like I said before, not here to convert. If you see that it wont work for you, or you dont have a need. Then who is anyone to tell you that you need it? Hopefully this thread shows that we can alteast agree to disagree, and learn to live and let live.:cool:
 
touchstone said:
Thankyou for your posts TIC, I'm following with interest!

Personally I feel that there is abuse or at least the potential for abuse, in any 'method', even mis-using body language can be confusing for a horse, and how often do we see the top riders doing the showjumping phase in a 3 day event in a hackamore because the horse has a sore or damaged mouth? I was (am) unhappy at the handling poor Catwalk had to endure, and after watching vids of how Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling handles truly aggressive stallions I can see how different the parelli demonstration was from what communication with horses CAN be.

I think all we can do is to follow our own intuition and common sense and take the 'good' bits that resonate with us and leave the rest, providing we are honestly doing our best for our horses, always questioning and not blindly following.

We are all constantly learning and the day we stop caring enough to question the why's and wherefore's of something is the day we shouldn't be doing it. Hopefully we can all learn lessons from this for the sake of our horses.
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Thank you, i find it fascinating as well. I could not have said the above better my self, bravo!:cool:
 
Tinypony said:
There are people with "carrot sticks" on my clinic, in all sorts of colours. To be honest, if someone came up to them and asked what horsenality their horse is they would probably fall over laughing. So just be careful that you're approaching a Parelli student if you do that.
a080.gif
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That is actually kinda my point TP. Before you assume some one is/isnt Parelli, and thus think you are judging Parelli by thier example. it would be better to confirm it, then evaluate.

And a good way to find that out is to ask them what horsenality or what level they are studying. this will also provide you with a sense of how far into the program, before you judge it all on someone who may have only been doing it a couple of days.

this does not mean you have to start doing parelli, but at least you could get along, and who knows, maybe make some new friends like I have here. we hardly ever have boogars hanging out our nose, just carrot sticks out our bum!:cool:
 
vandypip said:
Why do parelli disciples consider others anti???? do they not recognise challenge over such concrete beliefs??? why all this new language that nobody else uses, ie; horseenality??? is it in the oxford dictionary??? I think not. Where is the common sense???
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You will have to forgive me, I am having some difficulty with your language. I understand the first question but not quite the second.

We consider people NORMAL if they dont do parelli, but ANTI if they also participate in bashing a parelli student about the head for doing parelli.

would be like you calling us yanks, and us calling you brits.

parelli uses words that make it easy to remember the game by associatin with the word. no, it isn't in the dictionary, but niether was computer until someone invented it:cool:
 
vandypip said:
Fair comment bay beasty. BUT if we don't share the same sentiments we are all considered anti!! which is utter C**P. Do parrelians el al think that the average person interested in equine welfare are failing unless they engage in baby talk???
Click to expand...

Well i just explained it in short, but no, most do not consider people with differing approaches as ANTI or HATERS. And to be honest, who knows who started the "anti' name. It may well have not been parelli people. ANTI means you are against something, which is more than just not doing it.

Do you feel like I have talked to anyone here with disrespect?
if so all I can say is that i appologise if I have.

but since this thread is about, if nothing else, respecting each other, do you think it makes me feel good, when I have shown all of you nothing but the utmost respect, to call my method "baby talk". I know this was said days ago, and I am a bit behind, the rest of the thread.

but OUCH, that hurt!:o
 
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