Assumptions...

[SEL]

Mule I agree join up works via pressure/release but why do horses hook on when they have not been pressured in the first place? Is it just that after a few minutes of leading work they think you want them to follow because that is what you have been asking for with a rope on. So they just carry on even without one? But oddly they seem better at staying right by your shoulder without the rope than they do when being led! At least mine do.

Militaire will 'hook on' from the minute you take him into the arena. He's been trained at some point in his life to follow and assumes that's what you want - he's actually quite hard to move away from you. He was great when he worked with special needs kids because he'd follow them around with his nose on their shoulder. My mare on the other hand will wander off loose in the school to snack on the low hanging willow tree unless she is asked to focus and work. In winter when there are no leaves on the tree, she will happily follow you around.

The mare licks and chews a lot in response to stress. I do some basic masterson releases when her muscles are sore and she will hold herself very tensely and then suddenly relax and lick / chew. I don't see it as a 'good thing' so much as pressure release really.

Interesting thread

 

[mle22]

After a show or event, in the evening when she’s home again, our mare will lick your hand and do huge yawns on your hand. I see it as her releasing the tension of the day and relaxing into the comfort of home.

 

[TPO]

Just my 2 bobs worth but I think "Natural Horsemanship" cottoned on and grew to be the beast that it is today because people were looking for a quick fix.

Spend X amount of time working on Y or chase the horse around a pen/do some games for as long as necessary and have a "bond" within a day type thing that will fix everything.

The round pen stuff does work BUT it needs to be done properly and by someone who has feel and timing. All too often you see/videos posted of people doing "circle work" and the horse is giving cues that are totally missed. There is no release/reward and that is all that horses work towards finding. How do/Can you teach feel and timing?

As I said the round pen stuff does work, it was that method used to start all of the feral horses on the cattle stations where I worked and yet not one person working there had heard of Monty/Parelli et al and nor did they need $100 halters, ropes or flags.

I think a lot of the questions come from misunderstanding/misinterpreting terminology and lack of experience (as in never actually felt how something *should* be). Just using the example in the OP; a light and/or soft contact, if correct, won't be wishy washy. I do understand what you mean by it and I'm in the firm handshake group too but a correct contact will never be wishy washy. However you look at western riders with long reins that have loops and people seem to assume no contact (not aimed at OP, just in general). You can pick up/shorten the reins on a well trained western horse and it'll go the same as it was with a loop in the reins. Can you loop the reins on an English ridden horse and not have it alter? Is a contact only in the hand? If the horse changes when reins are lengthened then what are seat and legs doing? Of course it is possible to have slack in the reins while maintaining a contact and having the horse collected as Nuno Oliviera demonstrates...but alas I cannot ride like him!

Cowboys have been doing cowboy things since the dawn of time (or you know, since they invaded countries and needed to herd cattle) and while there was (is) a lot of rough ways to get a horse "broke" there are also the ways that have gotten the likes of MR and PP rich. It's no coincidence that one of MR's foster children works in marketing and PP married a business woman (I want to say marketing too but could be wrong) and it was the introduction of those influences that gave them a bigger/better platform and opened the flood gates for every Tom, Dick and Harry to wave a flag and collect the money.

Re licking and chewing - I guess it all depends on context. As MP posted there is a lot of new research that it is a stress response and not a relaxation response. It can also be a submission response...watch foals with new/older horses. You need to question what else is going on and take in the bigger picture. Like everything there is no easy answer.

I find all this stuff interesting and daunting at the same time as it's so easy to fall down the rabbit hole and question why we do what we do to them for our enjoyment/progress/competitive aspirations

OP - I would recommend that you find a good western trainer and go and ride one of their schoolmasters so you can truly feel the western contact, seat and weight aids. It's mind blowing! Only because you've referred to it having ridden under MR & BB but once you know what they mean then you can apply it to your English way, if that makes sense.

Going off on a tangent and because it's something that we have discussed before but my newsfeed is starting to fill with pics from the BB clinic weekend and some of them ain't too pretty at first glance. Again they are photos without context (videos not allowed) and there is a time to be firm and teach a lesson, bigger picture etc but I can't imagine I'd have been ok about it if I had taken Orange Pony to it and had that happen to him...even if it was just a split second. So where is the line? Is there a line? Yet all the reports and comments are hugely positive. How can us mere mortals emulate that of higher level (couldn't think of a better term) horsemen? Is it ok to ask/expect/train horses to do X, Y and Z? Is even the "gentlest" of training causing deterioration in our horses? Is it ok that we will "ruin" horses on our path to learn and better ourselves....plops over the edge into rabbit hole...

 

[ihatework]

Great post TPO.

A little story vaguely related.
There is a guy called Gerd Herschmann (might be worth a read of his stuff AE if you haven’t already).

A German vet big into biomechanics and very anti modern dressage (for some legit and understandable reasons).

He did some good stuff in areas he was qualified to comment. I went to a couple of the lectures and took a lot away from the first one in particular (which was all theory) and I’m pretty good at tuning out to the nutjob cult like following that this type of person seems to attract. It was good enough that I paid the following year to sit in on him riding and training.

OMG, how can someone who can coherently educate in one aspect be so frigging uncomfortable to watch when around a real life horse?!

That and a couple of other things leave me hugely cynical of anyone who shouts their own praises too loud!

 

[JFTDWS]

Gerd's ridden one of mine, and trained me on horses - I can't say I find him uncomfortable to watch on or around horses. And I'm very uncomfortable with a lot of trainers who are very much accepted in the mainstream dressage world...

 

[ihatework]

Gerd's ridden one of mine, and trained me on horses - I can't say I find him uncomfortable to watch on or around horses. And I'm very uncomfortable with a lot of trainers who are very much accepted in the mainstream dressage world...

Well who knows 🤷‍♀️
I wonder if you had him on a good day or I had him on a bad day?

Were yours private or in a public situation? (I get the feeling he tries to big things up in front of an audience).

Either way I wouldn’t be rushing to him for training (beyond theoretical biomechanics) I have to say

 

[JFTDWS]

Well who knows 🤷‍♀️
I wonder if you had him on a good day or I had him on a bad day?

Were yours private or in a public situation? (I get the feeling he tries to big things up in front of an audience).

Either way I wouldn’t be rushing to him for training (beyond theoretical biomechanics) I have to say

I've ridden with him twice, each time with two horses, and I've watched him teach at a number of clinics -always with a small audience. He does big things up a bit, there's definitely ego involved. But he does also have a good eye and good feel for a horse (in my opinion - I let him on one of mine, which I wouldn't for many dressage trainers!). He also has a few tricks up his sleeve and a less orthodox approach.

That said, it's horses for courses - I wouldn't take my mare to him because he would want to destroy parts of her that I like (or, less melodramatically, he would want to train her out of things which I like!), and because I'm not sure she'd benefit from it.

I learned a lot from him - but he's not the answer to every problem.

 

[ester]

I do remember a public display, with a friesian/black horse that a lot of people were surprised with.

 

[TPO]

I do remember a public display, with a friesian/black horse that a lot of people were surprised with.

This is what I was thinking of when I read IHW's reply.

 

[TPO]

Just going back to something someone said about the groundwork not transferring to ridden work.

Back in the day I'd have agreed and my "groundwork" would generally be poles or lateral work specifically for conditioning (ie "building topline" and strengthening abs to fix wonky horses) rather than a training method.

I'll say I'm more sensible in my old age but the truth is I'm definitely a lot less brave and a lot rustier than I've ever been. These days I dont want to be getting on anything if I can't stop, flex, bend and have control over shoulders and hips on the ground.

I think a lot of "groundwork" has been tarred with the idea of games and bonding (😬) rather than as a training tool. Schooling from the ground has been around long before you could buy the DVDs and in many different forms.

Richard Maxwell is a horseman and trainer that I like having seen in the flesh. His current tour demo is how groundwork translates to ridden work and helps ridden work. I follow him on FB and he often posts about SJers he works with when visiting his son in Germany (I think).

Learning the hard way I know first hand that holes in your groundwork will always show up under saddle even if the link isnt obvious. Again it depends what you want to do. If it shows up only when doing certain things and/or in certain situations then there is a thought process needed as to whether the "issue" needs to be addressed or if it genuinely isnt worth it because X or Y isnt needed for the horse to carry out the functions required.

Having said that, and AE wrote about it on my Buck Brannanman thread much more eloquently than I can, do we expect/accept too little from our horses? Do the tiny incremental steps that we dont correct always end up being a bigger issue further down the line? What if you're not wired to enjoy every/any step of the training pyramid? Is it ever ok just to get on and hope to stay on and that's enough or should we all be working towards that lightness and responsiveness???

No light at the end of my rabbit hole 🤯

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Think that recent studies have shown it as a response to stressful situations and also that it's not really a submissive response.

Just the first thing that popped up https://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2018/10/08/licking-chewing-sign-submission-stress/

ETA I think there is a high potential for an owner to know when their own horses will likely lick/chew and the type of things that indicates - but this is different when looking at herd behaviour or unknown horses at a demo
Just my case study of one again, but Kira def licks/chews after being stressed. She also always yawns when we get home from a trip and I put the ramp down, so she can see she is home.

A previous owner came to visit one of my horses, the mare started licking and chewing as soon as she heard PO's voice. The PO had been stressed by the horse and frightened of riding her in traffic. I also think that the mare had a headache, attributable to a particular feed that she had with that owner. I believe that the mare became stressed in response to the PO's remembered (by the horse) stress. She never showed the behaviour before or afterwards, even when she was ill.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I do remember a public display, with a friesian/black horse that a lot of people were surprised with.

If that's BB 2 years ago, I was there at that clinic and later spoke to the owner. It was actually a fell pony and was facing a bullet for rearing up at people. Buck took the lead rope and pony went up and struck out at him. Even with his lightning reflexes it was a close call so he dealt with it authoritatively. He also carried on working with the owner and pony afterwards away from the audience. Context is everything...

Having said that, I did not warm to Buck. I loved his books ans wanted to like him more but I thought he was arrogant and rude. But his timing and feel are impeccable and watching him ride green horses he had never seen before was impressive. And I have kept up with a lot of his ideas - in particular about being 'particular'. I see Katie on Dolly and she mounts and Dolly starts wandering off and she lets her and then picks up the rein as they are going along. And when she asks for trot she gets a sort of amble up into trot. She only rides 'properly' when she is 'schooling'. All of which teaches Dolly that a casual response to aids is ok. When it isn't! No wonder ponies get labelled lazy when in fact riders teach horses they don't need to be off the leg. I know any instructor would address that but for Buck (and me) it is a mindset. Amber either has a job or she is resting. And if she is working I want quality in the work. So I expect her to be on the aids all the time, even if we are just hacking. She is often given the rein so she can stretch but she is still expected to be listening and responsive.

I loved Tik Maynard's approach in his book. He has studied with lots of these guys: Mark Rashid, Parelli, Brannaman - as well as the best riders in the world. He says they are all amazing horsemen. But he wants to understand what underlies what they do and learn what he can from them without getting sucked into any one 'method' or school. He calls is 'cafeteria horsemanship' - a bit of this and a bit of that. I hope he is not another Buck who I like in print but not much in life!

 

[milliepops]

Having said that, and AE wrote about it on my Buck Brannanman thread much more eloquently than I can, do we expect/accept too little from our horses? Do the tiny incremental steps that we dont correct always end up being a bigger issue further down the line? What if you're not wired to enjoy every/any step of the training pyramid? Is it ever ok just to get on and hope to stay on and that's enough or should we all be working towards that lightness and responsiveness???

No light at the end of my rabbit hole 🤯

Re ignoring little things... i think that depends on your personal goals for your riding and horses and the concept or right & wrong in this context is a bit irrelevant, provided the horse is not left in the position of being confused or badly treated.

I have learnt to notice the little details and to enjoy looking after them, partly out of interest's sake, partly a bit of an inbuilt perfectionism thing, and partly having glossed over stuff in the past and it coming back to bite me! Easier, quicker and simpler to deal with things as you come across them... it will pay off in the future. but important to remember that training is rarely linear, horses do things in different orders and different ways to each other so you still can't get too prescriptive.

I have made a conscious decision to ignore a specific training hole this year with Kira, there's one venue that she never settles at and because they only run a few shows and we have reached their top level, it makes little sense (time or money wise) to put the effort into addressing that. I could waste a good amount of this year doing that otherwise. It took a bit of wrestling with my conscience on that one, but I decided it literally wasn't worth it. I have hardwired myself to not overlook small things so it still feels weird!

 

[ester]

It was a ridden one AE, with Gerd.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

After recent experiences I'm beginning to really doubt even the most basic of assumptions, essentially 'can I trust my own eyes?' The resounding answer seems to be 'no.'

This relates to the comment about stables in the OP because I think that we can train horses to accept things that they don't actually like and wouldn't choose for themselves if give a true free choice. I also think that it is possible that the same horse would decide differently depending on other factors eg the weather at that time.

So why can't I trust my own eyes? Well the last time that my horses needed their vaccinations I put them in their stables to wait for the Vet. All had a hard feed waiting and a haynet. The two mares calmly ate up the feeds and then moved onto the hay. Meanwhile the gelding (who was stabled overnight from birth - 18 months, ETA for more background info on the other two - CM not stabled overnight until 7 yo and the grey has been stabled overnight on and off since 1 yo and was born in a stable) was really conflicted and danced around as he couldn't decide if he wanted to eat, to boxwalk or to weave.

The vet came and as usual gave them a quick once over before their jab. So the outwardly stressed gelding is given the OK, the outwardly calm chestnut mare is given the OK, but the outwardly calm grey mare has a super high heart rate. She internalised her stress. The Vet checked her heart again at a later date out in the field and it was normal.

So now I know that a horse that I have had from a yearling and thought that I knew so, so well can actually completely hide her feelings from me. I felt like a substandard owner for a bit, but then I was reminded of that research into stabling where they used various methods other than behaviour to assess stress in horses eg eye temperature and the programme about training Police horses where the outward appearance didn't always match the heart rate.

Sometimes we can't trust our own eyes.

 

[splashgirl45]

thanks MP, that article says what i have always thought about the so called natural horsemanship, i see horses who are shut down in those demos and i felt uncomfortable with the MR methods when i saw them..

 

[Ambers Echo]

It was a ridden one AE, with Gerd.

Oh different horse then! There was a hoo ha over a black fell pony mare at the BB clinic. Some people walked out and there was a lot written afterwards on social media.

 

[PaddyMonty]

I'm not one who follows any set way of doing things with horses as i have found very few absolutes over the years.
Primary one - horse respond to pressure but learn from the release of the pressure.
Secondary - horses want an easy life. See above.
Lastly - No two horses are the same.
So a very simple set of rules for training it would seem?
When it comes to horsemanship again I take a simple approach. There is good and there is bad but very little that is new.
Good horsemanship bases all training methods on the horse in front of the person, not the one described in the book.
Now here's the root of this training problem and why it is so difficult to get right despite having so few givens.
Some one knowledgeable who I forget once said "Every time you ride a horse you change it. It is the riders responsibility to ensure the change is for the better"
I would take this further and say "Every time you interact with a horse you change it so make sure the change is positive.
Now most folks dont have sole interaction with a horse from birth so the horse in front of them is the result of a lot of interactions with most likely a lot of people. This is what makes training horses so difficult and for me makes following one route blindly not a great idea. It tends to limit the number of horses a person will train successfully. ie only those that require that particular method.
So in answer to your question OP. Yep some horses need a stronger contact, others a very light one. Depends on the interactions they have had to that point.
Non of the above rules out having a set goal. In fact to achieve anything a goal must be defined. For me that is being able to ride with very little pressure on a horse that thinks for themselves and is happy and relaxed whilst alert and attentive to the rider.
Depending on what you are starting off with and how the horse responds to initial interactions will determine what route that training takes.
There is no one size fits all with horses and to suggest that there is is doing the owner and more importantly the horse a huge disservice.

 

[nikkimariet]

Important to note that a lot of people misread being the boss/being the alpha as being a bully. You don't have to be hard to be in charge and if you act hard you're still not necessarily in charge!

 

[Wheels]

After recent experiences I'm beginning to really doubt even the most basic of assumptions, essentially 'can I trust my own eyes?' The resounding answer seems to be 'no.'

This relates to the comment about stables in the OP because I think that we can train horses to accept things that they don't actually like and wouldn't choose for themselves if give a true free choice. I also think that it is possible that the same horse would decide differently depending on other factors eg the weather at that time.

So why can't I trust my own eyes? Well the last time that my horses needed their vaccinations I put them in their stables to wait for the Vet. All had a hard feed waiting and a haynet. The two mares calmly ate up the feeds and then moved onto the hay. Meanwhile the gelding (who was stabled overnight from birth - 18 months, ETA for more background info on the other two - CM not stabled overnight until 7 yo and the grey has been stabled overnight on and off since 1 yo and was born in a stable) was really conflicted and danced around as he couldn't decide if he wanted to eat, to boxwalk or to weave.

The vet came and as usual gave them a quick once over before their jab. So the outwardly stressed gelding is given the OK, the outwardly calm chestnut mare is given the OK, but the outwardly calm grey mare has a super high heart rate. She internalised her stress. The Vet checked her heart again at a later date out in the field and it was normal.

So now I know that a horse that I have had from a yearling and thought that I knew so, so well can actually completely hide her feelings from me. I felt like a substandard owner for a bit, but then I was reminded of that research into stabling where they used various methods other than behaviour to assess stress in horses eg eye temperature and the programme about training Police horses where the outward appearance didn't always match the heart rate.

Sometimes we can't trust our own eyes.

Interesting stuff faracat!

Ive watched my small herd and made some observations over the past 15 - 16 years since I've had the horses at home. They have access to stables at all times, rubber mats plus a decent shavings bed, water and good quality haylage is in the stables. They use them regularly, they will come in if it starts raining heavily or if it's a very warm part of the day but they will come in at various other times throughout the day too. They come in to rest, sometimes to eat but even on a very rainy or very hot day they will only come in for a max of 2 hours at a time, sometimes for as little as a few mins.

If it is windy they do not come into the stables at all, even if it is raining heavily.

A number of years ago I had 2 ex racers, one box walked and the other weaved, they did choose to bring themselves in sometimes and didnt exhibit those behaviours but if i brought them in and shut the stable doors then the stress was apparent.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Absolutely Wheels, I totally agree with you that the door being shut is different to the door being open.

I think that we need to accept that despite thousands of years of domestication, a domestic horse still has all of the instincts of a wild one. Their biddable natures (which I think is due to them being social herd animals) allows us to train them to do things with and for us. I do sadly see learned helplessness far too often and it is very easy to take advantage of a horse that internalises its stress like my grey does.

A horse that shows its stress like my gelding maybe releases the stress by doing something about it, either with a comforting stereotypical behaviour or by being difficult/spirited. I am now re-evaluating a lot from his past. For example as a youngster he had LV which gave him sunburnt legs. The vet couldn't get near him (it involved lots of rearing) after she had treated them once. It had presumably been painful (he had been sedated) and he didn't want it to happen again. In the end I treated them loose in the field with no sedation and he accepted this. I had to give him his feed, do one leg at a time with short breaks between. I think he basically had a choice a risk/reward scenario. He could choose to leave the feed and not have his legs treated at any time, but I did them slowly and gently so that the reward of the food was greater than the 'risk' of having his legs touched.

The grey, if she had the same issue, could have been popped on a headcollar and would have stood perfectly to be treated by the vet time after time. She would have hated it, but she would have appeared calm and put up with it. I am now very aware about not taking advantage of her. If she ever needs more lump treatment I'm going to request painkillers beforehand so that we minimise the pain she has to go through. I'm sure that if I think about it fully, there's more that I can do to make things nicer for her. I am now aware that she doesn't make a fuss, so I need to be more proactive.

 

[Ambers Echo]

That is really interesting Wheels and Faracat. Useful to wonder whether we can get things totally wrong and to keep an open mind.

Different scenario but when we first had Ginny she would lunge over the stable door at passers by or at anyone who tried to stroke her. To try and change that we used clicker. She quickly learned 'ears forward, head forward' instead of ears pinned and swinging round to bite. Over time she improved anyway and that became unnecessary so we phased clicker out and I forgot we had ever used it. As we got towards the end with her, she would sometimes have ears forward and look like she was ok and then swing her quarters to kick. I was puzzled by the rapid changes from appearing to be ok to suddenly kicking out. It was only then that I remembered clicker... and the penny dropped that ears forward did not reflect her mental/emotional state but was simply a learned behaviour! Once we understood that we ignored ears as a sign of how she was doing and there were plenty of other signs of stress.

I did not much like clicker before anyway for various reasons, but that made me finally decide not to use it again. I want to know how my horses are feeling as best I can.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

And I have kept up with a lot of his ideas - in particular about being 'particular'. I see Katie on Dolly and she mounts and Dolly starts wandering off and she lets her and then picks up the rein as they are going along. And when she asks for trot she gets a sort of amble up into trot. She only rides 'properly' when she is 'schooling'. All of which teaches Dolly that a casual response to aids is ok. When it isn't! No wonder ponies get labelled lazy when in fact riders teach horses they don't need to be off the leg. I know any instructor would address that but for Buck (and me) it is a mindset. Amber either has a job or she is resting. And if she is working I want quality in the work. So I expect her to be on the aids all the time, even if we are just hacking. She is often given the rein so she can stretch but she is still expected to be listening and responsive.

Which is a point I have made on here, when posters seem to think that 'hacking' and 'schooling' are 2 completely different things. I have had several posters telling me that I am wrong. I shall stick to my way, though.

ETA I also firmly believe this from PM's post;
Some one knowledgeable who I forget once said "Every time you ride a horse you change it. It is the riders responsibility to ensure the change is for the better"
I would take this further and say "Every time you interact with a horse you change it so make sure the change is positive.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I don't think it's right or wrong, just personal preference. I remember Mark Rashid saying 'if it's okay with you and your horse then it's ok'. I am a control freak, especially out hacking and I want her 'with me' at all times. Other people might hack to chill and are happy with jogging or ambling or nibbling head high bushes. Dolly is only 5 this year so for her, clarity of expectation matters a lot and I pick Katie up on casual riding. But with Jenny she knows whether she is 'working' and when she isn't and seems well aware of the difference.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

. In the end I treated them loose in the field with no sedation and he accepted this. I had to give him his feed, do one leg at a time with short breaks between. I think he basically had a choice a risk/reward scenario. He could choose to leave the feed and not have his legs treated at any time, but I did them slowly and gently so that the reward of the food was greater than the 'risk' of having his legs touched.

this is such a powerful method with horses (and I realise it seemingly contradicts what I posted elsewhere recently lol) but giving them a choice and a degree of control over their behaviour can really help them overcome something they are scared of or worried about. I guess its natural behaviour-horses are so curious, even when they are worried by something and naturally chose to approach and retreat and reapproach on their own terms. More and more research is now showing that giving animals a degree of choice and control is so important for their well being (dogs and scent work, dairy cows and robot milkers whereby the cows can choose when they want to be milked, dogs and scent work, experimental animals and environmental enrichment, PigSafe farrowing units etc etc ).

And you get the likes of Lucy Rees, who backs semi feral horses and works with 'ruined' ones completely at liberty-and she doesnt chase them down to the point of exhaustion in order to do it. In fact she doesnt do much with them at all-still blows my mind.

I distrust Natural Horsemanship, I've seen them ignore signs of pain and stress way too often and distrust any trainer or owner that thinks a demonstration type environment is suitable to sort out a problem or back a horse.

I can't remember if its on this thread or not but someone mentioned that people wouldnt keep horses as pets. Actually, more and more people are keeping them as such, there are people specialising in non-ridden horses and thinking about how they handle/train and how they enrich. To be perfectly honest, as long as it is done well (ie enough space/company/movement etc) I have no issue with that at all and in the long run, horses might be better off for it.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I was blown away by my new EDT who did all the horse's teeth unrestrained on the yard. He does them ALL like that. And they all stand still and allow it.Giving them the choice to leave seems to stop them needing to.

 

[ihatework]

I was blown away by my new EDT who did all the horse's teeth unrestrained on the yard. He does them ALL like that. And they all stand still and allow it.Giving them the choice to leave seems to stop them needing to.

My EDT is like that too. He doesn’t want the owner in the stable and he doesn’t want them restrained or sedated. If they are a bit anxious he just gives them a bit more time. He uses power tools too.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Yes mine also uses power tools. And they are not just unrestrained in the stable, they are loose out on the yard! My old EDT insisted on sedation for them all.

 

[Goldenstar]

Interesting subject .
I am the leader on my yard and the horses know that they all respect me.
It’s a respect born old consistent handling and training and because I always seek to be fair , they are confident.
Horses have IME a great sense of justice built in ,you treat them fairly they will be confident and respect you, horses who are difficult have more often than not had unjust treatment .

 

[TPO]

I can't remember if its on this thread or not but someone mentioned that people wouldnt keep horses as pets. Actually, more and more people are keeping them as such, there are people specialising in non-ridden horses and thinking about how they handle/train and how they enrich. To be perfectly honest, as long as it is done well (ie enough space/company/movement etc) I have no issue with that at all and in the long run, horses might be better off for it.

Two fold reply because when have I ever been short of something to say

Firstly, I find it strange that so many people think that their horse's aren't pets and are uncomfortable with the notion that they are. Very few of us rely on them for income, transport or to do a job like logging for example. While some may compete that is a choice and (mainly) a hobby, much the same as with other animals that we are comfortable having as pets. I know many people who've continued to have dogs as pets when they can no longer compete/work in their chosen sphere and while I realise there is some size difference I don't get the "not a pet" mentality about horses because that pretty much is what they are?

I know it's been discussed on here many times that "if you couldn't compete would you still have horses?" and I'm always surprised by the amount of people who say no. I can understand people being competitive and enjoying it, needing/wanting something to train for/towards (as motivation), the sense of achievement when doing well and/or progressing but I struggle to understand that being bigger than just liking horses for being horses.

I'm sure that the majority of us started as pony mad kids and even those who came to horses later will have regressed to child like wonder at some stage about horses. Most of those kids are probably now very exhausted adults with jobs, bills and responsibilities but I do wonder where that all consuming love/desire/raison d' etre went when the judgement of A.N.Other and a ruffled ribbon mean more than just having a horse in our lives even as a "pet".

Secondly, the "unridden horse" and increase in non-ridden activities like horse agility. From the horse's POV surely this can only be a good thing? They aren't designed to be ridden; their skeletal make up is similar to that of a suspension bridge - big lumps aren't meant to sit on them!

Look at the issues we cause by bitting, bridling, saddling and all of our "training" on sometimes suspect surfaces, grazing in (generally) small paddocks (<20 acres) with "managed" grass, limited opportunities to properly graze a variety of forage, fed all sorts from feed stores, metal rims nailed on, various rugs on/off (& left on and off when they shouldn't be). Kept in, turfed out without adequate shelter or land, asked to do things that can be fatal (but we could get a rosette), surgeries for things we cause by doing what we want to do, injecting joints, cutting ligaments, blocking nerves, every possible thing that was can think of to achieve what we want/make our life easier/quicker/more convenient. Most of us know people and/or have been on yards and seen what "we" do to horses that "we" supposedly care about.

I know a certain amount of scorn is poured onto those that don't ride (and perhaps even do some of the aforementioned "games" instead) but what really is best for the horse? If you want to join me in my rabbit hole/black hole of doom should we actually be riding at all? Are all competitions really just for our egos as what possible pro or benefit is there to horses to train and partake in them or riding at all?

Here endeth this ramble/brain dump because here also endeth my lunch break