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Laafet

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Two fold reply because when have I ever been short of something to say :oops:

Firstly, I find it strange that so many people think that their horse's aren't pets and are uncomfortable with the notion that they are. Very few of us rely on them for income, transport or to do a job like logging for example. While some may compete that is a choice and (mainly) a hobby, much the same as with other animals that we are comfortable having as pets. I know many people who've continued to have dogs as pets when they can no longer compete/work in their chosen sphere and while I realise there is some size difference I don't get the "not a pet" mentality about horses because that pretty much is what they are?

I know it's been discussed on here many times that "if you couldn't compete would you still have horses?" and I'm always surprised by the amount of people who say no. I can understand people being competitive and enjoying it, needing/wanting something to train for/towards (as motivation), the sense of achievement when doing well and/or progressing but I struggle to understand that being bigger than just liking horses for being horses.

I'm sure that the majority of us started as pony mad kids and even those who came to horses later will have regressed to child like wonder at some stage about horses. Most of those kids are probably now very exhausted adults with jobs, bills and responsibilities but I do wonder where that all consuming love/desire/raison d' etre went when the judgement of A.N.Other and a ruffled ribbon mean more than just having a horse in our lives even as a "pet".

Secondly, the "unridden horse" and increase in non-ridden activities like horse agility. From the horse's POV surely this can only be a good thing? They aren't designed to be ridden; their skeletal make up is similar to that of a suspension bridge - big lumps aren't meant to sit on them!

Look at the issues we cause by bitting, bridling, saddling and all of our "training" on sometimes suspect surfaces, grazing in (generally) small paddocks (<20 acres) with "managed" grass, limited opportunities to properly graze a variety of forage, fed all sorts from feed stores, metal rims nailed on, various rugs on/off (& left on and off when they shouldn't be). Kept in, turfed out without adequate shelter or land, asked to do things that can be fatal (but we could get a rosette), surgeries for things we cause by doing what we want to do, injecting joints, cutting ligaments, blocking nerves, every possible thing that was can think of to achieve what we want/make our life easier/quicker/more convenient. Most of us know people and/or have been on yards and seen what "we" do to horses that "we" supposedly care about.

I know a certain amount of scorn is poured onto those that don't ride (and perhaps even do some of the aforementioned "games" instead) but what really is best for the horse? If you want to join me in my rabbit hole/black hole of doom should we actually be riding at all? Are all competitions really just for our egos as what possible pro or benefit is there to horses to train and partake in them or riding at all?

Here endeth this ramble/brain dump because here also endeth my lunch break

A very short reply, but the main reason why I would struggle to justify having horse if I couldn't ride him, is money. It's massive time/financial strain. Maybe I am heartless or maybe I am a 30-something in an average job renting and on my own, so at some point spend £250 a month on something has to have some positive benefit to my life.
 

milliepops

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I get in and out of the rabbit hole periodically. At the bottom of the rabbit hole, I think, no we shouldn't be riding horses, clearly. It does them no favours and I don't see that I have a right, really, over any another animal. I don't eat animals either, same reason. But I can do doublethink. I like riding them so I do. Getting out of the rabbit hole again now ;)


I know it's been discussed on here many times that "if you couldn't compete would you still have horses?" and I'm always surprised by the amount of people who say no. I can understand people being competitive and enjoying it, needing/wanting something to train for/towards (as motivation), the sense of achievement when doing well and/or progressing but I struggle to understand that being bigger than just liking horses for being horses.

I'm sure that the majority of us started as pony mad kids and even those who came to horses later will have regressed to child like wonder at some stage about horses. Most of those kids are probably now very exhausted adults with jobs, bills and responsibilities but I do wonder where that all consuming love/desire/raison d' etre went when the judgement of A.N.Other and a ruffled ribbon mean more than just having a horse in our lives even as a "pet".

I wouldn't look for any more horses if I wasn't competing or aiming to. The pony mad child in me felt the same, I was desperate to do more pony club and more shows, we didn't have transport so I was endlessly frustrated when reading the Jill books etc, wanting to join in with shows and gymkhanas!
I accidentally have 3 non ridden horses now, but 1 of those was a busy competition horse for over a decade and I keep her and her buddy out of sentimentality. I like having them about but the time, expense and commitment is not something I would want to take on if they weren't *my* horses with a shared history and sense of obligation.

That's not to say they aren't all pets- if I could have them in the house with us then I would do :oops: and I love spending time with them outside of riding or working them.

Maybe if they were in a field at home instead of rented/£££ livery off site then it would be different. but the ridiculous expense and effort associated with keeping them means that I personally wouldn't fall down on the side of collecting solely pet horses with no expectation of competing or ridden training. Just couldn't justify it. I can't really justify keeping the oldies but I feel like I owe them ;) I should be spending that money on paying debts or saving for a house deposit or all kinds of other things!
 

ycbm

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I get in and out of the rabbit hole periodically. At the bottom of the rabbit hole, I think, no we shouldn't be riding horses, clearly. It does them no favours and I don't see that I have a right, really, over any another animal. But I can do doublethink. I like riding them so I do. Getting out of the rabbit hole again now ;)


It's crowded in that rabbit hole, I'm there too.
 

milliepops

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My dad has been quite clear in telling me that riding horses is cruel, i think that's at the root of why they didn't help me with my ponies when I was a kid and why he's never shown any interest in the competitions we've done etc.
 

MotherOfChickens

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good points TPO. I had a kind of epiphany a couple of years ago when I resigned myself that my youngster, who I had battled with for a couple of years even on the ground, was not only for me but probably an unrideable. He is a beautiful horse, I so wanted to be able to ride him but we couldnt click and my ego took a hammering. What was I going to do with this beautiful, healthy 6yo horse? Had we got on on the ground and I'd believed he was happy with my set up, I'd have kept him but hand on heart he wasnt. I would really struggle to shoot a healthy young horse simply because I couldnt ride him. As it is he's found the perfect non-ridden home on a yard that I wish I had use of-I can keep an eye on him and have a say in his future. Although he's looked after by professionals his new 'owner' was not really horsey before this-he's a lamb with her. For someone who's always thought that she was half decent on the ground at least, it was quite a tough pill for me to take. Expectations, they ruin everything!

He never asked to be ridden,he wasnt put here for me to ride- its not his fault. I could have spent more money on pros to get him ridden through it but didnt want that for him. I have an idea that something happened shortly before he was shipped over but I have no proof and theres no way of addressing it without being insulting to people that I've known for some years. Maybe its me, maybe I am just alot more useless than I think. He is what he is and he's landed on his feet-he lives in a herd, has space, plenty of enrichment plus vet care if needed-all the benefits of being a natural horse with none of the risks.

I now have two, partly at home and partly on rented grazing. I dont ride as much as people probably think I 'should'. I keep them relatively simply and cheaply-I dont compete, rarely have lessons and avoid horse folk as much as I can. Sometimes I ride, sometimes I take him out for walks-I love hand walking horses and always have done. We do a fair few different things on the ground. Most of the year their environment was what they were born for-moorland grazing and out in all weathers. I enjoy just doing them and it gets me out of the house. On that basis, there would be no need to justify me keeping them at livery because I dont see them as being there for me to ride any more. But then I am older and have the mortgage already and dont have to keep them at livery so easy for me to say (although its sometimes attractive in January!).
 
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ycbm

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Which is a point I have made on here, when posters seem to think that 'hacking' and 'schooling' are 2 completely different things. I have had several posters telling me that I am wrong:oops:. I shall stick to my way, though.
.

What people disagreed with you about was that they are two separate words indicating different things, and it is perfectly possible to hack without schooling, and also to hack with no objective of improving the horse in any way, just enjoying how it is at that moment.

I find the insistence by some gurus that the horse must be improved on every ride a bit supercilious, to be honest.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying a hack slopping along on the buckle on an established horse, chatting with your mates or admiring the countryside. Thousands of happy hackers do it, and who is anyone else to tell them that's wrong?


Some one knowledgeable who I forget once said "Every time you ride a horse you change it. It is the riders responsibility to ensure the change is for the better"
I would take this further and say "Every time you interact with a horse you change it so make sure the change is positive..


This sounds to me like typical trainerspeak from a trainer who is trying to sell training services to people who want to see change in their horses.

If you treat a horse with consistency, which is what should happen, then there's no reason why it would 'change' an established horse. Unless you take 'change' to be defined at a pointlessly microscopic level.

Not everybody needs, or wants, to be constantly 'improving' their horses. And they shouldn't be looked down on for it.
 
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MotherOfChickens

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I find the insistence by some gurus that the horse must be improved on every ride a bit supercilious, to be honest.

I see it more of a do no harm type thing. so not setting out to improve them per se, but also not being so sloppy they have a poor experience that could change them in some way. I am the world's worst at daydreaming on a hack-or bird watching and not paying attention so this a personal view!
 

Pearlsasinger

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A very short reply, but the main reason why I would struggle to justify having horse if I couldn't ride him, is money. It's massive time/financial strain. Maybe I am heartless or maybe I am a 30-something in an average job renting and on my own, so at some point spend £250 a month on something has to have some positive benefit to my life.


Some people get pleasure from having ponies (particularly) and caring for them. My neighbour has retired from riding and now is fostering 2 donkeys, to get her 'fix'.
 
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Pearlsasinger

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[QUOTE="ycbm, post: 14023042, member: 118895"




This sounds to me like typical trainerspeak from a trainer who is trying to sell training services to people who want to see change in their horses.
[/QUOTE]


That made me laugh, as you obviously never met the RI who said it in the 60s!


And no, there is no reason why you should have done, as you weren't brought up in Yorkshire
 

ihatework

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The hacking thing is interesting.

I don’t think you should ever dismiss the theory that whenever you are riding or handling the horse, you are teaching it something (maybe not consciously, but you are).

So for anyone riding a horse who is destined for competition, I in no way, shape or form think you have to be actively schooling your horse out hacking each time. I have no issue slopping along on a quiet one and will often proactively choose to do this.
That said, it’s still very relevant to be aware of subtle stuff - for instance, even if I’m on a sloppy hack - if my leg goes on I expect a response, if I ask the horse to move over etc. etc. These are trained aids and if you get wishy washy about applying them, the boundaries become blurred for the horse, which isn’t really fair on them.

For people who are more hacking orientated and just use it as chill time it’s slightly less important but still not completely irrelevant. It’s not necessarily a case of improving every ride, but there will always be an element of the potential to consolidate training or blur lines. Awareness of this is surely a minimum requirement when you clamber aboard?
 

fburton

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Important to note that a lot of people misread being the boss/being the alpha as being a bully. You don't have to be hard to be in charge and if you act hard you're still not necessarily in charge!
I would turn it around and say you don't need to be alpha to be in charge.

Alpha is a position in the equine social order mainly concerned with who has priority in access to limited resources (food, water). When pushed to compete for these resources, horses will express their dominance in the form of escalating aggression. A few horses show dominance aggression towards others inappropriately, i.e. even when there's nothing at stake - that's called being a bully.

As a non-horse, I want to be in charge without the horse seeing me as a bully, a competitor for resources, or even as another horse. So I concentrate on teaching the horse to behave as I would like, and leave the equine social stuff to equines!
 

Pearlsasinger

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The hacking thing is interesting.

I don’t think you should ever dismiss the theory that whenever you are riding or handling the horse, you are teaching it something (maybe not consciously, but you are).

So for anyone riding a horse who is destined for competition, I in no way, shape or form think you have to be actively schooling your horse out hacking each time. I have no issue slopping along on a quiet one and will often proactively choose to do this.
That said, it’s still very relevant to be aware of subtle stuff - for instance, even if I’m on a sloppy hack - if my leg goes on I expect a response, if I ask the horse to move over etc. etc. These are trained aids and if you get wishy washy about applying them, the boundaries become blurred for the horse, which isn’t really fair on them.

For people who are more hacking orientated and just use it as chill time it’s slightly less important but still not completely irrelevant. It’s not necessarily a case of improving every ride, but there will always be an element of the potential to consolidate training or blur lines. Awareness of this is surely a minimum requirement when you clamber aboard?


I live in the hills. I do more hacking than schooling and more roadwork than is ideal, my horses have to move/stop as and when I ask them to do so. I enjoy a nice relaxing hack as much as anybody but I can't afford to switch off or to have the horse not respond immediately, for safety reasons (traffic and terrain). Plus, I can see no reason why schooling should be confined to an 'arena', the horse should be doing as the rider asks, all the time.
 

ycbm

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I really do think that we have lost the plot of we think that someone who has been hacking for years and is on an established and trustworthy horses needs to think for a second about whether they are improving the horse or not when they are out on a hack.

Whatever happened to just enjoying ourselves for while, free from the cares of our lives out on the back of a horse for a couple of hours?
 

ycbm

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I live in the hills. I do more hacking than schooling and more roadwork than is ideal, my horses have to move/stop as and when I ask them to do so. I enjoy a nice relaxing hack as much as anybody but I can't afford to switch off or to have the horse not respond immediately, for safety reasons (traffic and terrain). Plus, I can see no reason why schooling should be confined to an 'arena', the horse should be doing as the rider asks, all the time.


Nobody is saying that schooling needs to be confined to an arena, nor that schooling cannot be done on a hack.

What you have described as needing your horses to react is not the same, for me, as suggesting that every hack should be a schoolng exercise in improving the horse, which is what you said earlier.
 

ihatework

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I live in the hills. I do more hacking than schooling and more roadwork than is ideal, my horses have to move/stop as and when I ask them to do so. I enjoy a nice relaxing hack as much as anybody but I can't afford to switch off or to have the horse not respond immediately, for safety reasons (traffic and terrain). Plus, I can see no reason why schooling should be confined to an 'arena', the horse should be doing as the rider asks, all the time.

Yes, kind of, with the caveat that I generally deal with competition horses who have a reasonably intense lifestyle. They need an element of being able to think for themselves and, to a limit, the confidence to express themselves. I kind of like them to not do what I ask all of the time, because I don’t like robots - and when my horse goes Xc and the rider gets it wrong I want them to know that sometimes they can make a decision themselves.
So whilst I completely appreciate the desire to have a horse completely obedient under saddle all the time, I don’t want to take that to the realms where they can’t think for themselves.
 

Pearlsasinger

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Yes, kind of, with the caveat that I generally deal with competition horses who have a reasonably intense lifestyle. They need an element of being able to think for themselves and, to a limit, the confidence to express themselves. I kind of like them to not do what I ask all of the time, because I don’t like robots - and when my horse goes Xc and the rider gets it wrong I want them to know that sometimes they can make a decision themselves.
So whilst I completely appreciate the desire to have a horse completely obedient under saddle all the time, I don’t want to take that to the realms where they can’t think for themselves.




I want horses to think for themselves too! But I also expect and need them to respond if i ask them to do something. I agree with PM that every interaction with a horse, on the ground or in the saddle has an effect on the horse, so it is best to make it a positive one.

I wonder how many people take their dog for a walk. let it off the lead and leave it to its own devices until they are ready to put the lead back on and return home.
 

ycbm

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I don’t think you should ever dismiss the theory that whenever you are riding or handling the horse, you are teaching it something (maybe not consciously, but you are).


In the context of handling and riding an amenable and established horse, I think this would take the definition of 'teaching' a fair way outside the bounds of what I would agree with.


.
 

ycbm

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I want horses to think for themselves too! But I also expect and need them to respond if i ask them to do something. I agree with PM that every interaction with a horse, on the ground or in the saddle has an effect on the horse, so it is best to make it a positive one.

I wonder how many people take their dog for a walk. let it off the lead and leave it to its own devices until they are ready to put the lead back on and return home.


But nobody is suggesting leaving the horse you are hacking to its own devices. There a world of difference between directing a horse which has been trained to respond to direction and believing that every hack should be a schooling session with the objective of improving the horse.


Isn't it a bit of a no brainer that every interaction with a horse should be positive if possible? That doesn't automatically mean improvement though, it can just be maintaining the status quo.


.
 

milliepops

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Yes, kind of, with the caveat that I generally deal with competition horses who have a reasonably intense lifestyle. They need an element of being able to think for themselves and, to a limit, the confidence to express themselves.

I find hacking Kira really interesting in this respect. She is not a good hack. Hacking does not improve her schooling. She goes behind my leg, she goes crooked, she spooks, she is reactive to things. But I am encouraging that experimentation from her because she closes down by nature and I *need* her to become more inquisitive in order to develop confidence when she's out and about. So we bobble about and stop and look, and have a pat or a laugh about it, and sometimes I have to get off.

So the act of hacking could be seen as unschooling her. But for her it's important to do that.

The "always be training" thing needs to have a bit of a lighter touch for me. Even the steady-eddie super hacking horses can learn to nap etc if they are clever and allowed to get away with things, so happy hackers still need to be aware of their horse's reactions and intentions. But I agree that hacking can and often is a neutral activity where nothing is particularly gained or lost :)
 

Pearlsasinger

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I find hacking Kira really interesting in this respect. She is not a good hack. Hacking does not improve her schooling. She goes behind my leg, she goes crooked, she spooks, she is reactive to things. But I am encouraging that experimentation from her because she closes down by nature and I *need* her to become more inquisitive in order to develop confidence when she's out and about. So we bobble about and stop and look, and have a pat or a laugh about it, and sometimes I have to get off.

So the act of hacking could be seen as unschooling her. But for her it's important to do that.

The "always be training" thing needs to have a bit of a lighter touch for me. Even the steady-eddie super hacking horses can learn to nap etc if they are clever and allowed to get away with things, so happy hackers still need to be aware of their horse's reactions and intentions. But I agree that hacking can and often is a neutral activity where nothing is particularly gained or lost :)


That is your strategy for 'improving' Kira and it makes perfect sense to me. The trouble with some posters/riders is that they find it difficult to think outside the box. I almost said laterally burt thought that might confuse some!;)
 

milliepops

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In fairness, it is kind of difficult to equate the farcical displays we put on when trying to negotiate a circuit of the lanes with "schooling" :p

So yes in the long term it is improving her (hopefully!!) so probably loosely counts as - confidence- training. but schooling it ain't ;)

Dear old Millie was a fab hack, I chose to let her march along on a loose rein doing her own thing so long as feet were going in the right direction at the right speed. No training intended, but also no un-training, which is the light touch thing I was on about previously.
 
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Pearlsasinger

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In fairness, it is kind of difficult to equate the farcical displays we put on when trying to negotiate a circuit of the lanes with "schooling" :p

So yes in the long term it is improving her (hopefully!!) so probably loosely counts as - confidence- training. but schooling it ain't ;)

Dear old Millie was a fab hack, I chose to let her march along on a loose rein doing her own thing so long as feet were going in the right direction at the right speed. No training intended, but also no un-training, which is the light touch thing I was on about previously.


Perhaps my definition of 'schooling' and yours are different.
 

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'Untraining' is a good way of putting it. Katie could quite easily un-train Dolly as she is so young and her view of what is expected/ accepted will be very malleable at the moment.
 

fburton

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The claim that every interaction with horses is an opportunity for learning and, by implication, teaching/training is less contentious, perhaps?

People have defined learning as a change in behaviour as a result of events and experience. That seems quite sensible and pragmatic to me. If we accept this definition, it is possible to spend time with horses - including time in the saddle - without any noticeable change in behaviour. Assuming that's the case, it would be hard to argue that we has learnt anything from us or that we have trained the horse.

On the other hand, behaviour may indeed be changed, either accidentally or deliberately - and this would constitute training by the definition above. It could be something very subtle, and quite possibly not noticeable by anyone other than the handler or rider. For example, when leading horses I often try to make them softer and more responsive to slight variations in leadrope pressure and to my body position and movement. This may not be training in the conventional sense, but I have no doubt that their behaviour is being changed by way I have chosen to act.
 

Pearlsasinger

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The claim that every interaction with horses is an opportunity for learning and, by implication, teaching/training is less contentious, perhaps?

People have defined learning as a change in behaviour as a result of events and experience. That seems quite sensible and pragmatic to me. If we accept this definition, it is possible to spend time with horses - including time in the saddle - without any noticeable change in behaviour. Assuming that's the case, it would be hard to argue that we has learnt anything from us or that we have trained the horse.

On the other hand, behaviour may indeed be changed, either accidentally or deliberately - and this would constitute training by the definition above. It could be something very subtle, and quite possibly not noticeable by anyone other than the handler or rider. For example, when leading horses I often try to make them softer and more responsive to slight variations in leadrope pressure and to my body position and movement. This may not be training in the conventional sense, but I have no doubt that their behaviour is being changed by way I have chosen to act.



The problems arise when the handler/rider doesn't recognise the subtle changes in response to whatever they are doing/not doing . And there is a scary number of those people who just carry on blindly and wonder (eventually) why their horses' behaviour deteriorates.
 

milliepops

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Perhaps my definition of 'schooling' and yours are different.
yep quite possibly, and perhaps this has been why it seems like we disagree when actually we're talking at crossed purposes.

For me, schooling would definitely be a subset of training with the intention of improving the horse's performance against some kind of measurable scale or goal, not exclusively for competition but for me that would be the most common goal. Focussed work on set tasks interspersed with breaks, usually in a controlled environment that aids concentration or setting up of exercises. I rarely jump at the mo but I'd say the same about jump schooling or xc schooling which I've done a lot in the past.

Whereas my training out hacking I would think of much more loosely about developing the horse's general competence at being "useful" for want of a better word. there's no set periods of focus, no repetition of exercises.

It's all training, so I would agree I do training everywhere. But I only do schooling on some days, and in some places.
 

tristar

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My dad has been quite clear in telling me that riding horses is cruel, i think that's at the root of why they didn't help me with my ponies when I was a kid and why he's never shown any interest in the competitions we've done etc.
the older i get and longer i have horses the more convinced i am that the horses i have love to work, and want to work and spend time with me,.

after riding them i feel on a high, they too seem very contented, more contented than when they are left just to graze,i see my time riding them as special in a way nothing else is to me, i am sure they feel this too

my horses are happier and their shape and muscles are more beautiful from the work they do, they are fitter and healthier but they also have the minds and intelligence that enjoy learning.

i think of horses as mystical creatures that for some reason i understand and can tune into
 

milliepops

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Well I would say the same in that I wouldn't consider even getting in the saddle if they didn't seem content about the whole idea and appear to benefit but that doesn't remove the need for double think, for me at least.
 
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I never ride without plan never I always have an objective .
It’s like I am hard wired to do this .
Like fburton even if I am leading a horse I am thinking of something .
I always seek to work on my position every single day I work to ride better or as well as I can .
Very very occasionally I ride with MrGS that’s when all bets are off anything can happen .
I know others see things differently I don’t have a problem with that but I can’t think of anything worse than not having objectives even if the objective is to give the horse some ridden downtime .
 
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