severnmiles
Well-Known Member
No I wouldn't...I'm a woman and its a baby..... soft or what! I even have to battle to get the dogs to kill baby rats!
Baby fox...
- Thread starter Cullohill
- Start date
No I wouldn't...I'm a woman and its a baby..... soft or what! I even have to battle to get the dogs to kill baby rats!
Tinkerbee
Well-Known Member
lol, oi dont you back out and make me look like the only heartless one on here 
ooh eck...now i feel evil :crazy: :grin:
ooh eck...now i feel evil :crazy: :grin:
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
LOL. Well re. the rats my mum is all for killing the babies if that helps..she says they grow up..and she's right!
southgate1975
Well-Known Member
You know, I'm glad to hear that !
southgate1975
Well-Known Member
Not sure what to say now.....
Not sure what smiley to use either.....
Not sure what smiley to use either.....
Daisychain
Well-Known Member
The sad thing is, is that tinkerbee actually feels so proud of her self for doing it! You must be very insecure to want to tell everyone that, most normal feeling people would be mortified. You dont look like the big' i am' to me.
Tinkerbee
Well-Known Member
*rolls eyes* im not proud of myself. it doesnt make me feel big.
Its just the way that ive been brought up, a fox is a fox, a rats a rat. no matter what age. and pests get killed. as easily and humanely as poss.
Its just the way that ive been brought up, a fox is a fox, a rats a rat. no matter what age. and pests get killed. as easily and humanely as poss.
southgate1975
Well-Known Member
You dont need to feel defensive. Humane is OK.
AmyMay
Situation normal
I think to be honest it's probably a bit of brevado on Tinkerbee's part. Can't imagine that most people (even hardended hunt servants) would chuck a cub in to the hounds or to the terriers.
It's just not done out of season.
It's just not done out of season.
Daisychain
Well-Known Member
My whole point really in this issue is that if you wanted to kill a cub in this instance for pest control, you just wouldnt throw it into hounds, to me this is the sinister bit, the warped bit as it would be quite easy to shoot it outright, why would you want to witness that its a bit like abroad where they buy a donkey and throw it in to the lions, pointless, if you would do this you obviously have a sick way of getting your kicks, as human beings we have choices and to me this isnt humane in this instance.
southgate1975
Well-Known Member
Just playing devils advocate here.... But an adult fox that's hunted is more or less thrown to the hounds (OK they chase it and kill it, but it's almost the same thing). So if it's OK for an adult fox to be killed by hounds, why not a cub ? It looks like a line is being drawn here, but what is the line and where is it being drawn ?
[By the way, just to be clear about my own position .... I dont think that either cub or adult fox should be either thrown to or chased and killed by hounds.]
[By the way, just to be clear about my own position .... I dont think that either cub or adult fox should be either thrown to or chased and killed by hounds.]
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
Both ways are as humane as each other, its just the thought that you dislike (IMO). Its like some horse owners couldn't bare to have their horse shot therefore they'd use the injection (which in truth takes slightly longer so could be considered less humane).
AmyMay
Situation normal
The wily old adult has a chance of escape - the cub doesn't.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
Not during terrierwork (unless it bolts) and thats the bit the government left legal...
AmyMay
Situation normal
True.
Bugger, I knew there was a reason why I was going off the whole thing......
Bugger, I knew there was a reason why I was going off the whole thing......
Daisychain
Well-Known Member
Actually i have had a horse put down and he was shot, but he was being petted and fussed at the time, he new nothing. This to my mind is completely pre meditated, an adult fox would at least have the chance to get away, a cub however is still under the protection of its parents, it has been taken away from its environment which would cause it considerable stress in its self, and at this stage would be terrified and just to give it even more terror in its last few seconds, chuck it in, and you can imagine who ever threw it in would love watching them have a taste of charlie. Its undue unecessary stress, which to my mind is unaceptable. You cant justify everyones actions just because you like to hunt. If you had a deformed weak foal, would you throw it in because it would be a quick death! No you would shoot it or whatever in its own environment, so it new nothing of it. I havent got a problem with killing anything, its the suffering which is awfull.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
Well no more stress than taking it out of its environment and taking it to a rescue center surely...neither are 'normal' for a fox cub.
From the pics he looks as happy as larry. Animals don't think like us. If I put a gun to your head you know what it is and you'd probably for want of a better phrase 5hit yourself! If I put a gun to a pigs head it wouldn't look at me any different because it doesn't know what comes next. Equally when you pick the cub up near a pack of hounds it wouldn't know what was going it, it may sense things aren't quite right but it wouldn't know it was about to meet its maker.
From the pics he looks as happy as larry. Animals don't think like us. If I put a gun to your head you know what it is and you'd probably for want of a better phrase 5hit yourself! If I put a gun to a pigs head it wouldn't look at me any different because it doesn't know what comes next. Equally when you pick the cub up near a pack of hounds it wouldn't know what was going it, it may sense things aren't quite right but it wouldn't know it was about to meet its maker.
southgate1975
Well-Known Member
Ah, so the old 'sporting chance' chestnut makes all the difference......
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
I know thats for Amymay but I don't think it does...the welfare of the animal should be paramount. Terrierwork when done properly is humane.
Tinkerbee
Well-Known Member
ok...
we were down with the terriers at the holes, rarely do they get anything in them...
but this time lo and behold 3 cubs were just inside the hole, tink had killed one of them before i knew what had happened, so just let her at the others.
tbh, i didnt feel particularly happy, they were cute, but they were foxes. and id rather she got them as cubs than risk injury after adults,
we were down with the terriers at the holes, rarely do they get anything in them...
but this time lo and behold 3 cubs were just inside the hole, tink had killed one of them before i knew what had happened, so just let her at the others.
tbh, i didnt feel particularly happy, they were cute, but they were foxes. and id rather she got them as cubs than risk injury after adults,
southgate1975
Well-Known Member
I hope you'll understand that I'm not having a go at you, but I just want to think about something in the abstract for a moment.....
Just thinking about parents and upbringing, and conditioning in early life, really...
Quite a lot of people (including pro-hunters) think it's bad to throw a cub to the hounds. But you've commented that 'it's the way you were brought up' (or words to that effect). Do you and others think that if you had not been brought up in a place / environment where this was acceptable, your attitude to this might be different ?
And in fact, let's throw this open to everyone else..... do you think that this persons attitide to the situation would have been different with a different upbringing?
[And BTW, let's not turn this into criticism of the person concerned, or their family; this is an academic question about upbringing in general].
Just thinking about parents and upbringing, and conditioning in early life, really...
Quite a lot of people (including pro-hunters) think it's bad to throw a cub to the hounds. But you've commented that 'it's the way you were brought up' (or words to that effect). Do you and others think that if you had not been brought up in a place / environment where this was acceptable, your attitude to this might be different ?
And in fact, let's throw this open to everyone else..... do you think that this persons attitide to the situation would have been different with a different upbringing?
[And BTW, let's not turn this into criticism of the person concerned, or their family; this is an academic question about upbringing in general].
Daisychain
Well-Known Member
Yes i do believe people are conditioned by up bringing, wether religion, or whatever, but this is why sometimes you have to think outside the box, just because you enjoy hunting, why should it make it acceptable to end a cubs life like that, when in that instance it really isnt necessary... People should not be like sheep, think and believe what you really feel, even tinkerbee admits she did not like what she saw, that is her instinct, telling her its not really right, but the over riding power to go with how you are brought up will often swamp those feelings. This is the point earlier which i was trying to point out, if you really can just throw in a cub, then i really do believe, that is a sick mentality.
Tinkerbee
Well-Known Member
*nods*
yup, i blame my grandfather.
As a young kid lived v near my grandparents and was always messing about with the animals there.
My grandfather is very typical, old fashioned, northern irish rural farmer. If its ill and costs to much to fix, the meat man gets called etc etc
he has drowned kittens that one of the cats had because the mother abandoned them and was "too much hassle"
he also accidently shot my cat
would always go down the fox holes with him and terriers. in season or out. and hes the one who would always take me hunting/ pay the sub etc
HOWEVER my father used to be in LACS and we have many a row over the issue, so in a way i wasnt brainwashed and did in fact choose which strand of the family to follow
yup, i blame my grandfather.
As a young kid lived v near my grandparents and was always messing about with the animals there.
My grandfather is very typical, old fashioned, northern irish rural farmer. If its ill and costs to much to fix, the meat man gets called etc etc
he has drowned kittens that one of the cats had because the mother abandoned them and was "too much hassle"
he also accidently shot my cat
would always go down the fox holes with him and terriers. in season or out. and hes the one who would always take me hunting/ pay the sub etc
HOWEVER my father used to be in LACS and we have many a row over the issue, so in a way i wasnt brainwashed and did in fact choose which strand of the family to follow
southgate1975
Well-Known Member
..... sits back to wait and see if other hunters want to add anything .....
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
You know RS I was thinking about this on Tues, we had our pig killed (at home of course - less stress than a slaughterhouse), two old boys come out (fully licenced don't worry) pop and slit all over, once they've scraped the pig and hung him up he just looks like meat, not at all gory and lots less blood than you'd imagine. I was thinking thats where things have gone wrong and veggie tree huggers are taking over...if every kid in this country was brought up seeing (and helping) their home fattened stock killed people wouldn't have gone so soft. If we all raised our own meat and saw it killed I doubt you'd have many bunny brushers and antis out there.
Its what you're used to I guess. Tinks has been brought up the old fashioned way, when I have kids they'll help pack the meat when the pig/lamb/cow goes, they'll come hunting and probably have a terrier or two and lurcher to go and catch bunnies with, I doubt either will grow up veggie or become an animal rights bum, they will also I must add be taught to respect their quarry.
Its what you're used to I guess. Tinks has been brought up the old fashioned way, when I have kids they'll help pack the meat when the pig/lamb/cow goes, they'll come hunting and probably have a terrier or two and lurcher to go and catch bunnies with, I doubt either will grow up veggie or become an animal rights bum, they will also I must add be taught to respect their quarry.
Daisychain
Well-Known Member
Severnmiles i completely respect your input, and i bring my own children up being aware of what they eat etc, recently we bought half a pig off the yard, i new the pig and as yours were killed respectfully. My personal beliefs are that everything should have a close to natural life as possible, and i never have a problem with anything being killed as long as it is done as humanely as possible. Even if something is a pest it still has every right to be humanely killed.
Tinkerbee
Well-Known Member
Totally agree about the food
we try and buy as much as our food as poss. from local farms/butchers, where we know they have been free range/killed humanely
however, peoples definitions of humane can vary
to me, hunting is most humane pest control, but my cousin thinks shooting is...
we try and buy as much as our food as poss. from local farms/butchers, where we know they have been free range/killed humanely
however, peoples definitions of humane can vary
to me, hunting is most humane pest control, but my cousin thinks shooting is...
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
But do you think taking the cub to a sanctuary is natural? As many have said on here the vixen was probably inbetween moving them.
Daisychain
Well-Known Member
I think personally, if it looked healthy i would probably have left it alone, as im sure the vixen was aware of it.
southgate1975
Well-Known Member
I think there's a difference between not being squeamish about humanely killing an animal for food (and I hope that I'm not that squeamish), and making it into a questionably humane and probably not stress-free sport (which I think is wrong).
However, let's not go down that one for the moment. The train of thougth I was developing in my earlier thread is this....
if you accept that some people's upbringing has made them develop a particular attitide towards animals and killing them (and from what you just said, I think you do).....
... then I wonder if you's care to think about how one's upbringing might condition one's attitude towards hunting.
Or to put it another way, if one was not born and brought up in a hunting family, might one turn out to have other attitides about hunting.
However, let's not go down that one for the moment. The train of thougth I was developing in my earlier thread is this....
if you accept that some people's upbringing has made them develop a particular attitide towards animals and killing them (and from what you just said, I think you do).....
... then I wonder if you's care to think about how one's upbringing might condition one's attitude towards hunting.
Or to put it another way, if one was not born and brought up in a hunting family, might one turn out to have other attitides about hunting.