Back less sway or tummy tighter?

[LadyGascoyne]

I am currently deluding myself that Milagra’s back looks less swayed. This is from yesterday evening (bottom) versus the day she arrived (first photo I have of her, the day she arrived.)



I’m almost considering riding her. I’ve hopped on a couple of times and bumbled about in the field but thought I might try some schooling. Am I totally kidding myself? It has been a long lockdown and with this one and my strangely-shaped little Araby one, it’s been a while since I’ve seen a conformationally recognisable equine.

 

[Lois Lame]

I'm willing to go along with your thoughts.

My husband pointed out that when I'm standing around I don't look as good as when I am moving.

 

[cobgoblin]

Her back looks better in the second photo but, she's moving.
You really need a still pic like the first one to compare.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

You need 2 standing pictures to really compare properly but she does look better overall, I think as long as you make sure the saddle is 100% comfortable you take it slow and do some carrot stretches and belly lift exercises I don't see why not, you are fairly lightweight so it's not going to be a major for her.

Arabi can look a bit like that if his out of work but he really improves with the right work and I make sure I do the stretches everyday, I am only 9 stone so I don't let very heavy people ride him either.

 

[Red-1]

Rigsby gets less sway backed the fitter he gets. I think their abs tighten up so the carry themselves better.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

As it turns out, I am really bad at taking still photos of horses. All my recents are moving, or just their faces. I’ll take a still one tomorrow.

I do have previous movement shots from Milagra. Clockwise; first day (condition as she arrived in), three months later and gained condition, two months after that and starting to do some work, and now - coming out of winter and doing waking in hand and lunge work.

 

[tristar]

yes, less

 

[ycbm]

Huge improvement, no doubt. She doesn't look like a horse which shouldn't be ridden by a lightweight rider to me.
.

 

[PSD]

Can’t really offer any advice on the sway back thing however....She looks fantastic!

 

[sbloom]

Monitor how she stands, we all try and square them up to take good photos (not a bad idea in itself but...), just keep observing her, the less she camps under, probably the better her posture is. Maybe take tracings like a saddler would.

 

[Widgeon]

Her back looks very much better to me but presumably that is because she's in better shape and carrying herself better? The difference is amazing, I would also be tempted to hop on for a little potter about!

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I managed to persuade her to stand without coming up to cuddle today after doing some work. Apologies for roller sweat mark




It’s still very swayed. Given she’s around 15.1hh, sound and moves well, what sort of weight should I be looking at putting on her?

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I think because she is probably quite weak I wouldn't go very heavy at all and the lighter the better, as she gets stronger you could probably go a bit heavier and get away with it, thing is a half hour walk or short school is not going to do much harm.

My old instructor has sat on Arabi a few times and he is very thin but tall but he sits so light for a quick 15 minutes I wouldn't worry about that, I think because it's mainly me that has ever ridden him and being 9 stone his not used to much weight really so I am more careful.

 

[Equi]

Shes improved on condition and muscle but i wouldnt say the sway has gotten much "better" so to speak. But the way she uses her tummy and back muscles is clearly a lot more beneficial to her. She looks a hell of a lot better than the first shots.

This is the one with the teeth issue isnt it? How is that going?

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Shes improved on condition and muscle but i wouldnt say the sway has gotten much "better" so to speak. But the way she uses her tummy and back muscles is clearly a lot more beneficial to her. She looks a hell of a lot better than the first shots.

This is the one with the teeth issue isnt it? How is that going?

She’s doing really well. It is harder to keep condition on her than Mim but that could also be age and type. I’m giving her as much hay and straw as she can eat, and she’s doing brilliantly. The dentist has been so impressed with the improvement. She’s so good about the whole thing too, thank goodness, as it’s three monthly check ups at the moment and I’m so relieved she doesn’t need to be sedated.

These are from today:



So against where we started:

 

[Equi]

Woooooow! They look so much happier. So glad you gave her a chance.

 

[gunnergundog]

She is a horse that I would recommend seeing Tom Beech - Osteopathic vet. He is doing a lot of work with dental cases and seeing results in how changes there impact posture. However, the caveat is, that I believe your horse is knocking on in years, so changes may be minimal. Could be worth a phone call though? Apologies if I have her age wrong.

 

[Lois Lame]

Great photos of her teeth.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I suspect, at her age, the sway may be a permanent fixture. But I don't think it means you shouldn't ride her. She will just need to keep doing her sit ups to help support her back.

 

[ycbm]

She’s doing really well. It is harder to keep condition on her than Mim but that could also be age and type. I’m giving her as much hay and straw as she can eat, and she’s doing brilliantly. The dentist has been so impressed with the improvement. She’s so good about the whole thing too, thank goodness, as it’s three monthly check ups at the moment and I’m so relieved she doesn’t need to be sedated.

These are from today:

View attachment 67465

So against where we started:

View attachment 67467

You are doing an incredible job there!
.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

She is a horse that I would recommend seeing Tom Beech - Osteopathic vet. He is doing a lot of work with dental cases and seeing results in how changes there impact posture. However, the caveat is, that I believe your horse is knocking on in years, so changes may be minimal. Could be worth a phone call though? Apologies if I have her age wrong.

You remembered correctly, she’s 18. I think you’re right that the changes would be smaller but I have heard really good things about Tom Beech.

I suspect, at her age, the sway may be a permanent fixture. But I don't think it means you shouldn't ride her. She will just need to keep doing her sit ups to help support her back.

She’s not the only one who needs to do her sit ups ? I suspect have a few pounds to drop if I’m going start working her more. Good for both of us though.

 

[sbloom]

I would want a little weight off her, especially at this time of year, she needs muscle not condition . And I would endorse the recommendation for Tom Beech, The Osteopathic Vet, he is brilliant at finding the patterns, the "interconnectednesses" in postural and mild lameness issues, and knowing what to tackle first.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I would want a little weight off her, especially at this time of year, she needs muscle not condition . And I would endorse the recommendation for Tom Beech, The Osteopathic Vet, he is brilliant at finding the patterns, the "interconnectednesses" in postural and mild lameness issues, and knowing what to tackle first.

Do you think she’s too well covered? I was worried she was looking a little light again but maybe I’m just used to seeing my little araby one who looks fabulous on fresh air and only drops if she’s cold.

She’s very sound - to the point where vet always comments how nice and even she is. There is just so much atrophy over shoulders and withers but she sees a physio for that.

My hesitation in calling Tom would be that she’s not unsound or unhappy and is an 18 year old horse who will only be used for light hacking at most. I would only be riding to encourage muscle development for he benefit so she didn’t seem happy, I’d just go back to in hand walking. I don’t want to waste his time, if you know what I mean.

 

[sbloom]

I actually get a little sad that people feel taking an older horse to an expert is wasting their time. I fitted a saddle to a 27 year old pony once, a little coblet. His owner was going to retire him, but he was miserable. Her saddle was terrible, she needed a new one, and she got a lot of flack for having me out and having a new one fitted. She wanted to hack twice a week for half an hour.

After 3 months she went and did the Burleigh pleasure ride, and the following week I widened the saddle a whole width because he'd put on so much muscle. He stayed in work for 2 years and she's still raving about the saddle and how much extra ridden time she had with him. Ironically he IS now retired, and happy!

I only mentioned lameness in passing, I didn't mean that your horse was lame, the postural bit is the relevant bit. I do think we can't always fix everything from on board, sometimes we do need to get things working better from the ground in order that the way the horse moves and carries itself means it's better placed to carry a rider, and then you can start building muscle. Carrying 9 plus stone will always make correct posture harder.

If it's too much money, and with an older horse, then I do understand, ultimately our human lives have to have a place in this, but Tom is much cheaper than most lameness workups etc, or other things that vets might do to try and get to the bottom of why a horse isn't quite right. A horse that is true and straight, and working correctly, even in late teens, will build correct topline. Something is at least slightly off, and he's one of the best in the job for getting to the bottom of it. He also works with brilliant rehab teams, dentists, bodyworkers etc, who can all pull the threads together. I have several clients work with Dan Wain, his rehab trainer in Warwicks, and they all love learning the work, seeing their horses transform.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I actually get a little sad that people feel taking an older horse to an expert is wasting their time. I fitted a saddle to a 27 year old pony once, a little coblet. His owner was going to retire him, but he was miserable. Her saddle was terrible, she needed a new one, and she got a lot of flack for having me out and having a new one fitted. She wanted to hack twice a week for half an hour.

After 3 months she went and did the Burleigh pleasure ride, and the following week I widened the saddle a whole width because he'd put on so much muscle. He stayed in work for 2 years and she's still raving about the saddle and how much extra ridden time she had with him. Ironically he IS now retired, and happy!

I only mentioned lameness in passing, I didn't mean that your horse was lame, the postural bit is the relevant bit. I do think we can't always fix everything from on board, sometimes we do need to get things working better from the ground in order that the way the horse moves and carries itself means it's better placed to carry a rider, and then you can start building muscle. Carrying 9 plus stone will always make correct posture harder.

If it's too much money, and with an older horse, then I do understand, ultimately our human lives have to have a place in this, but Tom is much cheaper than most lameness workups etc, or other things that vets might do to try and get to the bottom of why a horse isn't quite right. A horse that is true and straight, and working correctly, even in late teens, will build correct topline. Something is at least slightly off, and he's one of the best in the job for getting to the bottom of it. He also works with brilliant rehab teams, dentists, bodyworkers etc, who can all pull the threads together. I have several clients work with Dan Wain, his rehab trainer in Warwicks, and they all love learning the work, seeing their horses transform.

Its absolutely not about the money; she has regular vet and specialist dentist visits for her dental condition, and both horses have physio visits because they enjoy them and I like to stay on top of how they are moving and feeling, regardless of both of them being unridden. She’s not being deprived of care based on her age or money.

Its about whether it’s in her best interests to push to get her back under saddle.

The situation that you describe of working correctly and failing to build a top line doesn’t apply to her; she hasn’t been working at all.

She is retired and has a job being a companion to my youngster. She has done absolutely no work for at least three years, bar having a foal in her previous home.

She is going out on walks in-hand with me and doing ground work which I think is important to keep her mind busy, and also to keep me connected to how she’s feeling and moving.

I absolutely wouldn’t be considering fixing things from on-board - our focus for the ten months we’ve had her has only been to get her right from the ground- I would only consider testing the theory that hacking out occasionally might be something she enjoyed, and could help her to build some muscle too.

She hasn’t been ridden at all yet so I don’t have anything to say that she’ll fail to build muscle or has any underlying problems.

But, if she did, I’m not sure I want to put her through ‘getting to the bottom’ of something if she’s perfectly happy to be a retired horse and is sound and well in herself, and I’m perfectly happy to keep her that way.

I said I wouldn’t want to waste Tom’s time (not my own time) because if he recommended work ups, scans and diagnostics - which would mean stressing her out- just to get her back to be ridden, I wouldn’t go for it. I’d rather have a relaxed, happy, unridden horse. She’s lovely and valuable to me as she is, she doesn’t need work for her keep.

 

[milliepops]

nothing to add but I think it's lovely that you've taken her on and given her such nice care in her twilight years LG. it's a kind thing to do for a horse and she is obviously doing well on it whether you bring her back into some light work or not

 

[sbloom]

I'm sorry, I did miss some of that. Tom doesn't recommend that kind of thing, have a chat with him.

And I do agree you're doing a fab job for her, that post wasn't having a pop at all, like I said, I understand even if it's about money, we can't kill ourselves to look after our horses, it was about feeling you were wasting his time. Us paraprofessionals want to help all horses, it matters not if they're competition horses, the reason I used the story I did, a proper happy hacker. And Tom is the same.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Its absolutely not about the money; she has regular vet and specialist dentist visits for her dental condition, and both horses have physio visits because they enjoy them and I like to stay on top of how they are moving and feeling, regardless of both of them being unridden. She’s not being deprived of care based on her age or money.

Its about whether it’s in her best interests to push to get her back under saddle.

The situation that you describe of working correctly and failing to build a top line doesn’t apply to her; she hasn’t been working at all.

She is retired and has a job being a companion to my youngster. She has done absolutely no work for at least three years, bar having a foal in her previous home.

She is going out on walks in-hand with me and doing ground work which I think is important to keep her mind busy, and also to keep me connected to how she’s feeling and moving.

I absolutely wouldn’t be considering fixing things from on-board - our focus for the ten months we’ve had her has only been to get her right from the ground- I would only consider testing the theory that hacking out occasionally might be something she enjoyed, and could help her to build some muscle too.

She hasn’t been ridden at all yet so I don’t have anything to say that she’ll fail to build muscle or has any underlying problems.

But, if she did, I’m not sure I want to put her through ‘getting to the bottom’ of something if she’s perfectly happy to be a retired horse and is sound and well in herself, and I’m perfectly happy to keep her that way.

I said I wouldn’t want to waste Tom’s time (not my own time) because if he recommended work ups, scans and diagnostics - which would mean stressing her out- just to get her back to be ridden, I wouldn’t go for it. I’d rather have a relaxed, happy, unridden horse. She’s lovely and valuable to me as she is, she doesn’t need work for her keep.

Her muscle wastage was probably caused years ago by the wrong saddle possibly too tight, the drop belly often occurs because they are constantly hollowing away from the saddle, the sway back doesn't help and you can't change it much, but you can get her to use her stomach and lift that then improves the whole look and the muscle comes back.

Arabi looks better in proper work and he really benefits from have a regular sports massage, his whole posture lifts after she has finished and he feels so much better to ride afterwards, I know with him if he has time off it's a long hard rehab to get him back because of the comprised conformation he has, but it certainly can be done his 17 now and yes it takes longer as they age but not impossible.

 

[sbloom]

I'm almost undoing my recommendation to see Tom and do in hand work (!), because this happened with just ridden work, but this was before I learned as much as I have now

Before and after, aged 27, and simply to give you inspiration, that you may get her really strong.

https://www.facebook.com/stephaniebloom.saddlefitter/photos/2397829163599000

https://www.facebook.com/stephaniebloom.saddlefitter/photos/2397829146932335

 

[PurBee]

She’s such a sweetie lg ?

For future reference, maybe you could do a vague measurement of the sway in her back?
With her standing square - I’d use a long straight stick, rested either top or bottom of withers and across her back, other end of stick rested on her bum - then measuring from the stick above the sway, to the deepest part of the sway in her back.

Take a pic of you doing the measurement - where you place the stick. So when you measure in 6 months time you’ll remember exactly where to place the stick and re-measure.

It certainly looks less sway to my eye, or she’s holding herself much better.

My mare was a broodmare and had the typical gut and sway back, even at 10yrs old. Took about 2yrs of no foals for her to ping back into shape of normal stance, without working her.