Back less sway or tummy tighter?

[PapaverFollis]

I would get a decent ACPAT physio out to her to help you come up with a programme of work to keep her sound and happy. From what you've said I also feel an orthopaedic vet might be slight overkill? Just because it sounds like she's sound and happy. Just needs her strength carefully built up and maintained. A good physio can cover that base.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I would get a decent ACPAT physio out to her to help you come up with a programme of work to keep her sound and happy. From what you've said I also feel an orthopaedic vet might be slight overkill? Just because it sounds like she's sound and happy. Just needs her strength carefully built up and maintained. A good physio can cover that base.

She’s currently seeing a vet physio who is IRVAP and RAMP registered but not ACPAT.

I haven’t been unhappy with the physio but would you lean towards an ACPAT accredited physio over the others?

 

[PapaverFollis]

She’s currently seeing a vet physio who is IRVAP and RAMP registered but not ACPAT.

I haven’t been unhappy with the physio but would you lean towards an ACPAT accredited physio over the others?

I'd always leaned that way previously but can't get one up here and have just had a really excellent vet physio who is not ACPAT come out to mine so wouldn't rule out non-ACPAT. If she's seeing a physio you are happy with already and she's sound and happy then personally I wouldn't be looking to go further down a vet route as of yet.

The ACPAT is more because I've seen some really dodgy physios in action and ACPAT is what jumps to the front of my mind to avoid one of those. But I think IRVAP and RAMP would do the same job! I just haven't got them lodged in my head in the same way.

 

[Trouper]

For me, it is the analysis that Tom Beech gives you on the horse. You can do as little or as much as you like with the information he gives you and, from what you say and the way she looks, I doubt that MRI's and diagnostics will need to feature in any treatment!! It's all about working the horse correctly and if you know where her strong and weak points are, you can tailor that to her.
Do have a look at his FB pages - some really fascinating cases and articles.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Milagra this morning.

She’s dropped a little weight but is very well in herself. She’s been on a few light hacks but otherwise has been continuing in hand and doing some work on the lunge. I’m taking it very slowly.

 

[PapaverFollis]

She looks fabulous ?

 

[Errin Paddywack]

What a shine on her coat, lovely.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

She’s currently seeing a vet physio who is IRVAP and RAMP registered but not ACPAT.

I haven’t been unhappy with the physio but would you lean towards an ACPAT accredited physio over the others?

I had a physio for Arabi when he went lame at 5 it was a foot balance issue but it changed his whole posture, I had her out every month and we were given lots of exercises which I did religiously and it really changed him for the better, and I do believe without that he would have probably just stayed that way.

He has other issues now like the saggy belly sway back if out of work, his also a slight head shaker which we think is nerve damage, so I use a cranial therapist that also does shiatsu and laser acupuncture, after she has treated him he feels like a different horse I don't know how she does it but it works for him, and it really calms the head shaking down and inbetween I use a sports massage.

I think some methods work better for some horses it's a bit of trial and error really, I sort of know with him which therapist is going to benefit him depending on what issue I have.

It certainly wouldn't hurt to get a physio to have look and they often give you a lot of things to do to help, and I do really rate the sports massage lady I use I can feel the difference in there way of going it just frees everything up, I think you have to just try a few different things and go with what works for your horse.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I had a physio for Arabi when he went lame at 5 it was a foot balance issue but it changed his whole posture, I had her out every month and we were given lots of exercises which I did religiously and it really changed him for the better, and I do believe without that he would have probably just stayed that way.

He has other issues now like the saggy belly sway back if out of work, his also a slight head shaker which we think is nerve damage, so I use a cranial therapist that also does shiatsu and laser acupuncture, after she has treated him he feels like a different horse I don't know how she does it but it works for him, and it really calms the head shaking down and inbetween I use a sports massage.

I think some methods work better for some horses it's a bit of trial and error really, I sort of know with him which therapist is going to benefit him depending on what issue I have.

It certainly wouldn't hurt to get a physio to have look and they often give you a lot of things to do to help, and I do really rate the sports massage lady I use I can feel the difference in there way of going it just frees everything up, I think you have to just try a few different things and go with what works for your horse.

Do you think I should try a different physio? I do really like the current one and certainly it has made a difference to Mim’s evenness but I guess she doesn’t have the history or any kind of atrophy which is probably much harder to work on. I always worry about offending people if I have a session with someone else.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Do you think I should try a different physio? I do really like the current one and certainly it has made a difference to Mim’s evenness but I guess she doesn’t have the history or any kind of atrophy which is probably much harder to work on. I always worry about offending people if I have a session with someone else.

I have used quite a few different physios over the years and they vary massively, it's like anything really you get really good and not so good professionals, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try someone else and I wouldn't worry about offending anyone your entitled to use who you like, the therapists I use know I use different people they don't seem bothered by it.

I think it's up to us as owners to seek out what is best for our horses and try things it might crap it be the best thing you ever did, but if you stuck with the same old thing how will you ever know

 

[LadyGascoyne]

One step forwards, two steps back.

She looked great the week before last week. And then, literally overnight, her coat went dull, she lost condition, and then her breath started smelling.

Today I took the top photo. The bottom one was 9 March.



Her skin is really ridged and flaky. You’d almost think dehydration but she has plenty of water, and a salt lick, soaked feeds- and nothing has changed. She isn’t drinking any more or less than usual, or urinating any more or less.

Her poos smell, and her breath smells.

Nothing has changed from a management perspective. I can’t find anything stuck or sore in her mouth, other than the obvious.

Some photos of her condition and her coat today:





Oddly, for a very itchy horse she isn’t itchy at the moment.

She’s not unhappy but I am feeling very flat.

 

[Palindrome]

Is she rugged? They can get flaky skin when they are bit hot under their rug.
It is shedding time so I wouldn't worry about a coat a bit dull at this time, you could try feeding linseed if you aren't already, it usually work well at giving a shiny coat and good for weight gain as well.
My first thought would be to give probiotics as well, but I know you are well surrounded by vet, dentist, etc...

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Is she rugged? They can get flaky skin when they are bit hot under their rug.
It is shedding time so I wouldn't worry about a coat a bit dull at this time, you could try feeding linseed if you aren't already, it usually work well at giving a shiny coat and good for weight gain as well.
My first thought would be to give probiotics as well, but I know you are well surrounded by vet, dentist, etc...

She is rugged. Maybe I’m being completely neurotic and it’s not related to the teeth flare up at all. Thanks for pointing it out, my head is in a mess about her.

She is on a cup (circa 150g) of linseed with breakfast and one with supper. I could up it a bit. She also gets brewers yeast with her meals, which she loves.

Breakfast is dengie meadow grass with herbs and oil. Supper is speedibeet.

She gets 2/3 of a bale of hay at the moment and the grass is ok. Not great but fine. There is a lot of dandelion in it which is supposed to be good for detox and digestion too.

I’m just so down about her teeth. And it has just struck me how much I watch her, and worry for her.

 

[milliepops]

I'd agree, a couple of mine look rough at the moment as the old coat is shedding and the new one growing in. they look like patchy old carpets.

RE the pongy poos. maybe she could do with a dose of protexin or similar? is it pongy like they sometimes get on antibiotics when their guts can go out of whack?

 

[Zuzan]

She is rugged. Maybe I’m being completely neurotic and it’s not related to the teeth flare up at all. Thanks for pointing it out, my head is in a mess about her.

She is on a cup (circa 150g) of linseed with breakfast and one with supper. I could up it a bit. She also gets brewers yeast with her meals, which she loves.

Breakfast is dengie meadow grass with herbs and oil. Supper is speedibeet.

She gets 2/3 of a bale of hay at the moment and the grass is ok. Not great but fine. There is a lot of dandelion in it which is supposed to be good for detox and digestion too.

I’m just so down about her teeth. And it has just struck me how much I watch her, and worry for her.

Is it worth trying to swap out the speedibeet with something else as know a few horses who really don't flourish on speedibeet .. or any beet for that matter.. Grass nuts can make a good alternative .. or even the Dengie alfa nuts.. ?

Another thought is that Dandelion combines really well with Burdock root and Milkthistle Seeds re liver tonic and lymphatic drainage.

Another option might be Fenugreek seeds which can help with digestion and condition.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Is it worth trying to swap out the speedibeet with something else as know a few horses who really don't flourish on speedibeet .. or any beet for that matter.. Grass nuts can make a good alternative .. or even the Dengie alfa nuts.. ?

Another thought is that Dandelion combines really well with Burdock root and Milkthistle Seeds re liver tonic and lymphatic drainage.

Another option might be Fenugreek seeds which can help with digestion and condition.

She seemed better on the speedibeet than on the dengie grass nuts alone. During summer I had her on grass alone and then onto grass nuts when there was less actual grass. I added the speedibeet about four months ago and it looked like it was working well for her until last week.

I could try the Alfa nuts but I do know alfalfa can be tricky for itchy horses and I’ve just managed or get her to stop rubbing the skin off her face.

I’ll think I’ll get some milk thistle and burdock.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I'd agree, a couple of mine look rough at the moment as the old coat is shedding and the new one growing in. they look like patchy old carpets.

RE the pongy poos. maybe she could do with a dose of protexin or similar? is it pongy like they sometimes get on antibiotics when their guts can go out of whack?

No, it smells like her teeth do. Like something is decaying. Really horrible.

 

[Zuzan]

............
I could try the Alfa nuts but I do know alfalfa can be tricky for itchy horses and I’ve just managed or get her to stop rubbing the skin off her face.
............

Alfa suits some ... like beet it works for some and not others ... I feed it with no problem at all. It's tricky so much is trial and error .. finding out what works best for your horse. If it does suit your horse it's a fab feed ... good for the gut with excellent fibre and protein values.

Also re the grass nuts there can be quite a wide spectrum of feed values between different brands / labels etc some have much higher feed values than others. It is worth comparing the values of the Dengie ones you were feeding with those of other makes.. nb some of the generic farm store nuts are have much higher feed values than the equine specific ones. One of my friends essentially kept her toothless golden oldie on sheep grass nuts very well until arthritis set in.

Re the smell do you think she might have an abcess / infection in her mouth somewhere ?

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Alfa suits some ... like beet it works for some and not others ... I feed it with no problem at all. It's tricky so much is trial and error .. finding out what works best for your horse. If it does suit your horse it's a fab feed ... good for the gut with excellent fibre and protein values.

Also re the grass nuts there can be quite a wide spectrum of feed values between different brands / labels etc some have much higher feed values than others. It is worth comparing the values of the Dengie ones you were feeding with those of other makes.. nb some of the generic farm store nuts are have much higher feed values than the equine specific ones. One of my friends essentially kept her toothless golden oldie on sheep grass nuts very well until arthritis set in.

Re the smell do you think she might have an abcess / infection in her mouth somewhere ?

I might give the Alfa nuts a go then. Thanks.

We are quite limited brand-wise, as we are on certified organic land which is cross grazed with sheep and a very small herd of dairy cows. Everything has to be non-GMO. Dengie is great like that.

Re the smell, she has EOTRH but we had seen huge improvement in the symptoms since she arrived with us. It just feels like this is a backwards step. It is a progressive disease so I suppose it’s to be expected but it’s still really disheartening because she really was looking so much better.

 

[PurBee]

Have you just started a new hay batch? If so, Something different in the hay than last batch?

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Have you just started a new hay batch? If so, Something different in the hay than last batch?

I actually did buy a small load a few weeks ago, and we finished it yesterday.

I’ve had a new delivery but haven’t started those bales. Maybe there is something unusual about the last batch. They will get the new ones tonight.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

If she continues this way you could also pull bloods?

Requirements can also change as they age.

A friend has an older mare who was starting to look a bit sunken and her kidney numbers were off. Minerals ok though. The vet treated (idk the details) and tested again. She is fine and looks better now. Owner also makes sure that the horse drinks more.

My guy goes between looking meh and good during cost change time. I swear it changes by the day.

 

[Dexter]

I'd have her on a decent amino acid supplement at double dose. She looks very cushingy as well, has she been tested recently?

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I'd have her on a decent amino acid supplement at double dose. She looks very cushingy as well, has she been tested recently?

No, it’s never been mentioned before in relation to her.

What is it about her that makes you think of cushings?

 

[Dexter]

Just that she looks poor despite your best efforts and shes the right sort of age. Her muscle tone should be better, even just loafing round the field, never mind with your input. I find cushings can be one of those things that triggers all sorts of weird minor infections and issues which seem random, until you get the cushings under control and they stop. Id want to test to rule it out at least.

Amino acids will help even if she doesnt have it. The protein in grass drops right off over the winter, and some horses just get a bit low in protein at this time of year. I'd want to add vitamin e as well, as again it can be slowly dropping till it hits crisis point about now. It won't hurt, and it will probably really help. I've seen some dramatic changes in horses when vitamin e is added, they dont have to have pssm to need it.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

No, it’s never been mentioned before in relation to her.

What is it about her that makes you think of cushings?

It could be cushings but that is quite a dramatic change in that amount of time! Arabi looks a bit rubbish at coat change and change of seasons I think affects his mood and appearance I often use global herbs restore for about 6 weeks if he looks a bit not right and I think it definitely helps it's like detox, I often use it after they have antibiotics or other drugs or if they have been unwell it's not expensive might be worth a try.

 

[TPO]

Have you ever tried Keyflow Pink Mash? It's good for hind gut health and contains Protexin.

It's not that high in calories (11mj/Kg iirc) so at one point I swapped to Speedibeet thinking it would help condition wise. The TB didn't look as well and actually dropped a bit of condition. He picked straight back up on Pink Mash. My non scientific conclusion is that the PM helps the gut so that horses can get more from everything else.

It might be worth a punt instead of/as well as speedibeet?

Re physios, I've used a few and had the best results with vet physios. The ACPAT wasnt bad per se but she did miss some very obvious things that I spotted from the off but she didnt pick up on at all. The vet physios all spotted it on their first visits too. The ACPAT was *much* more expensive (not that £££ was the issue, just another point) and is very highly regarded by many. Basically my point is if you're happy with your vet physio I wouldnt change. There is still a fair bit of bias towards ACPAT and the reasons cited are often that they can treat humans. I mean I dont expect my vet to have degree in medicine before he started veterinary medicine. As a further aside when I was doing McTimmoney training there were human osteos and physios on the course because they didnt rate the animal degree of their courses.

 

[PurBee]

I actually did buy a small load a few weeks ago, and we finished it yesterday.

I’ve had a new delivery but haven’t started those bales. Maybe there is something unusual about the last batch. They will get the new ones tonight.

I recently learnt about foxtail grass in hay, which can be found in hay fields, but is terrible for their mouths - the tiny erect hairs on the grass heads (looks a bit like timothy heads but fluffier) these hairs penetrate their gums and cause all kinds of gum and teeth issues, causing terrible swelling, blisterings etc. Ill hopefully post some pics for you.

 

[Palindrome]

Interesting, I am really not clued up on teeth, so learning things thanks to this thread. I hope Milagra gets better soon. Do you know that the masculine of milagra (milagro) means "miracle" in Spanish?

 

[Michen]

I'm sorry, I did miss some of that. Tom doesn't recommend that kind of thing, have a chat with him.

And I do agree you're doing a fab job for her, that post wasn't having a pop at all, like I said, I understand even if it's about money, we can't kill ourselves to look after our horses, it was about feeling you were wasting his time. Us paraprofessionals want to help all horses, it matters not if they're competition horses, the reason I used the story I did, a proper happy hacker. And Tom is the same.

This comment has put me off booking Tom tbh. Not recommending any form of scans or diagnostics, surely he has the odd case where that would be necessary to get a true diagnosis? He can’t have x ray eyes. What if I’d taken Bog to him and he’d missed a very unusual soft tissue injury (you couldn’t possibly have found it without a scan and a very specific block).

He sounds brilliant but I’m afraid I can’t be on board with anyone who categorically doesn’t recommend any further investigation, there must be occasions where it’s needed given the number of horses he’s come across.

OP lovely what you have done with this horse btw, sorry to go off track.