Balance Through Movement Method - Celeste Lazaris

[nikicb]

I thought it would be easier to start a new thread on this rather than go off on a tangent on various threads where it is mentioned. I am very interested in signing up for this, but there seem to be a couple of possible options available and I thought it worth asking people who are already in the groiup before parting with my money.

Curently the only thing I can sign up to is the masterclass group for $150. However, according to the website, there are some in hand pillar courses coming up in 'Spring 2023'. Would it be worth me waiting for these, and does anyone know when they will be available?

The BTMM Academy

Balance Through Movement Method is centered around treating nerve and spinal compression and solving undiagnosed lameness. Specializing in equine performance development, equine rehabilitation, equine thoracic sling development, kissing spines, EPM.

www.balancethroughmovementmethod.com

Thank you.

 

[TPO]

@SEL and @Reacher signed up forit with horses they own. They were both very helpful when I had (lots of!) questions

 

[nikicb]

@SEL and @Reacher signed up forit with horses they own. They were both very helpful when I had (lots of!) questions

Thank you. I did search back through the forum, but couldn't find anawers to my specific question there. Hopefully they will see this thread.

 

[Otherwise]

There's a very interesting thread on chronicle of the horse, well worth reading before signing up

https://forum.chronofhorse.com/t/thoughts-on-the-traveling-horse-witch/770014

 

[nikicb]

There's a very interesting thread on chronicle of the horse, well worth reading before signing up

https://forum.chronofhorse.com/t/thoughts-on-the-traveling-horse-witch/770014

Thank you, I will take a look.

 

[sbloom]

I believe the courses coming up are nerve release and will only be offered to BTMM students, the groundwork is the basis of everything and some level of knowledge and achievement will be required. I can't see any other way that she'll structure the academy - she's simply trying to tidy everything up and get it off Facebook. There is valid criticism that the course is messy and, certainly for some, s little hard to follow. She has added some free, and some paid for, resources that help make up for this.

The gold is in the context, the explanations, the support in the group, the learning to observe, to hold space etc. It's not in the details of the exercises to be done, it's in the change in the horse when you understand what the issues are and gently fix them with the help of the resources.

She posted yesterday about the nature of the training, of expectations, it's a good one to read. Good training costs money, if everyone dedicated a bigger part of their ridden training budget to doing this sort of work horse welfare would be improved, it is not expensive for what can be achieved if you really use the resources.

 

[Petmurf]

I’ve just started this training and am learning it slowly so I get it right, the guides on the fb site are all over the place but I’ll get there eventually.

 

[nikicb]

I believe the courses coming up are nerve release and will only be offered to BTMM students, the groundwork is the basis of everything and some level of knowledge and achievement will be required. I can't see any other way that she'll structure the academy - she's simply trying to tidy everything up and get it off Facebook. There is valid criticism that the course is messy and, certainly for some, s little hard to follow. She has added some free, and some paid for, resources that help make up for this.

The gold is in the context, the explanations, the support in the group, the learning to observe, to hold space etc. It's not in the details of the exercises to be done, it's in the change in the horse when you understand what the issues are and gently fix them with the help of the resources.

She posted yesterday about the nature of the training, of expectations, it's a good one to read. Good training costs money, if everyone dedicated a bigger part of their ridden training budget to doing this sort of work horse welfare would be improved, it is not expensive for what can be achieved if you really use the resources.

Thank you for your reply.

The website states that she will be running In Hand Pillar courses this Spring. The 'Katherine Lowry' link doesn't work.

It is a little frustrating that you can't find out what you are getting for your money until you've already paid for it, but that isn't because I begrudge paying for training. I already do regular in hand work, including lessons with Diane Thurman Baker. I have also spent some time doing straightness training in the past, so I really am on board with the importance of posture, working from the ground etc. My mare hasn't actually been ridden for a few months as we had an issue with saddle fit last year. Instead, I have been working her in hand as well taking her to the water treadmill regularly to rebuild the muscles over her back and resolve the muscle atrophy/asymmetry. I am just trying to work out whether it is better to join the group now, or wait till the Pillar courses start given that Spring is just around the corner.

 

[sbloom]

If you prefer your training presented beautifully and we'll structured then you may well want to hold on. I know it's not necessarily even about learning style, as that is somewhat addressed already, but looks like that will be formalised in the new format.

I can't see that there will be much different in the actual content/subject matter, and the price may go up too I'd imagine.

I would say this would be more useful than treadmill sessions, it sits "below" most other in hand offerings, and provides a great base to help more complex work eg what you are doing, Manolo, Ritter, SOM etc.

 

[nikicb]

If you prefer your training presented beautifully and we'll structured then you may well want to hold on. I know it's not necessarily even about learning style, as that is somewhat addressed already, but looks like that will be formalised in the new format.

I can't see that there will be much different in the actual content/subject matter, and the price may go up too I'd imagine.

I would say this would be more useful than treadmill sessions, it sits "below" most other in hand offerings, and provides a great base to help more complex work eg what you are doing, Manolo, Ritter, SOM etc.

Thank you. Just fyi, the treadmill sessions are already part of our regular routine, even when she's ridden, and she does a fair amount of incline intervals as that really gets her swinging through her whole body.

When you say "below", do you mean it's a foundation level of training? Rather than incorporating lateral work etc.

 

[Miss_Millie]

There's a very interesting thread on chronicle of the horse, well worth reading before signing up

https://forum.chronofhorse.com/t/thoughts-on-the-traveling-horse-witch/770014

I've been thinking of signing up for a while, but this thread has planted some doubts.

 

[sbloom]

When you say "below", do you mean it's a foundation level of training? Rather than incorporating lateral work etc.

I do, however there are plenty of trainers who already train other people in groundwork, and riders working their horses in the more "advanced" programmes who are finding it very useful and often recommending it in the way I do. It's showing up the odd hole in what they were doing.

 

[nikicb]

I do, however there are plenty of trainers who already train other people in groundwork, and riders working their horses in the more "advanced" programmes who are finding it very useful and often recommending it in the way I do. It's showing up the odd hole in what they were doing.

Thank you. Definitely food for thought. I would like to think Diane is pretty good at making sure we have the foundations in place before moving to the next level. In fact we have just taken a step back to 'review' and repeat some of our in hand training for various reasons. She's also very hot on the handler's posture as well as the horse's. I will keep an eye on the BTMM website to see if they update with some more details about the Pillar courses and take it from there.

 

[maya2008]

I agree with the COTH thread. I think perhaps I am on the wrong forum!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

There's a lot more wrong than the structure of the course and it seeming a bit sloppy. It's a hard pass for me. Sure there may be some good tidbits, but not nearly enough for me to put my money and time toward. Hard. Pass.


I do think that groundwork done correctly and us paying more attention to the horse and their body in general, is not a bad thing. Huge fan of that. No issues there. I just don't support this individual, their program, some of their methods, their explanations, and their behavior. Anyone can hang a shingle out and be an "expert" or claim this or that. It's not a program or person that is be touting. Do your research.

Varied opinions on this individual and this programme, and this is just my opinion on the matter.

 

[nikicb]

I agree with the COTH thread. I think perhaps I am on the wrong forum!

There's a lot more wrong than the structure of the course and it seeming a bit sloppy. It's a hard pass for me. Sure there may be some good tidbits, but not nearly enough for me to put my money and time toward. Hard. Pass.


I do think that groundwork done correctly and us paying more attention to the horse and their body in general, is not a bad thing. Huge fan of that. No issues there. I just don't support this individual, their program, some of their methods, their explanations, and their behavior. Anyone can hang a shingle out and be an "expert" or claim this or that. It's not a program or person that is be touting. Do your research.

Varied opinions on this individual and this programme, and this is just my opinion on the matter.

Thank you both. I am certainly not going to jump into this which is why I posted the thread. I am still not happy with the fact that one doesn't really know what they are getting until one has handed over one's money. I do think it's possible to learn via video etc., but I am beginning to wonder whether there is any added value for me in my situation on top of the in person, in hand, lessons I already do. Will still keep an eye on the website to see what they are offering, but for now my purse is staying shut. That doesn't mean I don't think I can learn anything from the group/process/whatever, I'm just not sure it's what I am looking for currently.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I assumed that the Masterclass would be a series of 'How To' videos explaining the method, but from what I have read on the COTH forum it is just a Facebook group with some videos about the theory and they don't actually show how to do the exercises? Please can someone who is already signed up clarify whether this is true or not?

I'm a visual learner, so if it's just talking about the exercises without showing them in a video format, sadly I don't think it will be any good for me.

 

[SEL]

@SEL and @Reacher signed up forit with horses they own. They were both very helpful when I had (lots of!) questions

I signed up when I had 4 horses, now down to 3. All have some dysfunction even if its just being a gangly youngster and I was on my final year of an equine massage diploma so interested in seeing what Celeste was promoting. I'm an Analyst by training and career so have a tendency to work out the good, the bad and the ugly with promotions and BTMM is no different!

The Good
- huge amount of information on the FB page. Professionals that know their stuff comment on posts that people share. The general public are not allowed to start commenting so you don't get 100 different opinions. Excellent technical explanations on thoracic sling
- a strong focus on freeing up the front end. This won't be 'new news' to anyone truly versed in classic training but it is new news to anyone who has been taught that a tight outline in front is what they should be aiming for. I had a friend waffle on about how it is totally different to anything she's ever been taught and I had to ask her if that was genuinely true - but I think if you've been told to hold a horse in a tight contact and drive from behind then this will be very different.
- anyone who has done straightness training will recognise the principles. For me Celeste's explanations made more sense than Marijke (but that can come down to learning style)

The Bad
- FB is a real PITA to navigate. Good comments on posts disappear into the FB memory bank never to be seen again.
- It isn't a course so much as a collection of information. If you join expecting 'follow points A - Z and ta da you'll have a perfect horse' you'll be disappointed within 10 minutes
- I truly believe most people would be better off having a really good vet physio (or ACPAT or bodyworker of choice) lay hands on their horse before anyone does any programme to strengthen the thoracic sling. Especially given the majority of people joining the masterclass have horses with biomechanical issues.
- The initial exercises are basic by necessity. No bodyworker is going to give out more complex guidance without laying hands on a horse. Zoom sessions are offered but personally I think they are limited in their usefulness in this type of programme. There is one instructor in the UK.
- I'm yet to be convinced that these are the right exercises for every horse in every situation and the 'one size fits all' promotion makes me uncomfortable. I've seen a friend doing pillar 1 (down and forwards part of straightness training) with a downhill cob who is already heavy on her forehand and likely has some physical issues in her pelvic / SI type area. I doubt she's going to be engaging her thoracic sling in any sense until that back end issue is resolved. I also doubt that if Celeste saw the pony IRL she'd be suggesting she walks with her head down either, but that's the shortcomings of online information.
- I'm yet to be convinced that freeing up the front end is the right way to develop the thoracic sling of every horse. One of my case study horses is definitely using his back end badly shown by his muscle development. That needs specific focus.
- The American ethos is to tell everyone they are going a Great Job. TBH I find it hard to tell from the vast majority of photos as to whether there is improvement because its pretty impossible for most of us to replicate the photo we took 3 months ago. But I'm a cynical Brit who feels that she is not doing a Great Job!!
- Lack of before and after videos. A few have been posted but I'm not really seeing fabulous improvements. Definitely seen some posted by professionals which look good but not average Jo types.


In general I think the focus on thoracic sling development and trying to teach the average rider what good and bad looks like is great. There's a lot of good stuff on Equitopia and if you put Celeste's name into Youtube search function there are some podcasts around where she talks about her approach.

And I've written war and peace.....

 

[Miss_Millie]

I signed up when I had 4 horses, now down to 3. All have some dysfunction even if its just being a gangly youngster and I was on my final year of an equine massage diploma so interested in seeing what Celeste was promoting. I'm an Analyst by training and career so have a tendency to work out the good, the bad and the ugly with promotions and BTMM is no different!

The Good
- huge amount of information on the FB page. Professionals that know their stuff comment on posts that people share. The general public are not allowed to start commenting so you don't get 100 different opinions. Excellent technical explanations on thoracic sling
- a strong focus on freeing up the front end. This won't be 'new news' to anyone truly versed in classic training but it is new news to anyone who has been taught that a tight outline in front is what they should be aiming for. I had a friend waffle on about how it is totally different to anything she's ever been taught and I had to ask her if that was genuinely true - but I think if you've been told to hold a horse in a tight contact and drive from behind then this will be very different.
- anyone who has done straightness training will recognise the principles. For me Celeste's explanations made more sense than Marijke (but that can come down to learning style)

The Bad
- FB is a real PITA to navigate. Good comments on posts disappear into the FB memory bank never to be seen again.
- It isn't a course so much as a collection of information. If you join expecting 'follow points A - Z and ta da you'll have a perfect horse' you'll be disappointed within 10 minutes
- I truly believe most people would be better off having a really good vet physio (or ACPAT or bodyworker of choice) lay hands on their horse before anyone does any programme to strengthen the thoracic sling. Especially given the majority of people joining the masterclass have horses with biomechanical issues.
- The initial exercises are basic by necessity. No bodyworker is going to give out more complex guidance without laying hands on a horse. Zoom sessions are offered but personally I think they are limited in their usefulness in this type of programme. There is one instructor in the UK.
- I'm yet to be convinced that these are the right exercises for every horse in every situation and the 'one size fits all' promotion makes me uncomfortable. I've seen a friend doing pillar 1 (down and forwards part of straightness training) with a downhill cob who is already heavy on her forehand and likely has some physical issues in her pelvic / SI type area. I doubt she's going to be engaging her thoracic sling in any sense until that back end issue is resolved. I also doubt that if Celeste saw the pony IRL she'd be suggesting she walks with her head down either, but that's the shortcomings of online information.
- I'm yet to be convinced that freeing up the front end is the right way to develop the thoracic sling of every horse. One of my case study horses is definitely using his back end badly shown by his muscle development. That needs specific focus.
- The American ethos is to tell everyone they are going a Great Job. TBH I find it hard to tell from the vast majority of photos as to whether there is improvement because its pretty impossible for most of us to replicate the photo we took 3 months ago. But I'm a cynical Brit who feels that she is not doing a Great Job!!
- Lack of before and after videos. A few have been posted but I'm not really seeing fabulous improvements. Definitely seen some posted by professionals which look good but not average Jo types.


In general I think the focus on thoracic sling development and trying to teach the average rider what good and bad looks like is great. There's a lot of good stuff on Equitopia and if you put Celeste's name into Youtube search function there are some podcasts around where she talks about her approach.

And I've written war and peace.....

That's very helpful, thank you

 

[Caol Ila]

The COTH thread put me right off. I have been a member of that forum for a long time. Many of those people know their sh1t.

 

[Boulty]

This method is something I keep circling back around to as what may potentially help me slot that last jigsaw piece into place with the fuzzball. (I have a trimmer, osteo / vet, physio & instructor that I trust and things have improved a hell of a lot from where things started from but there are niggles that remain & the general consensus is that they maybe always will & that I’m probably always going to have to be careful & cautious with him). I have spent years doing lots & lots of inhand walking & long lining, working him from the ground, doing specific exercises to improve proprioception (sorry I can’t spell it & apparently neither can autocorrect!) & hopefully encourage thoracic sling development. Whilst I’m riding I’m trying to encourage appropriate self carriage for his level of training. He still has a very weedy chest for a Highland (He’s nearly 7 so I guess there MIGHT be a chance he’ll keep developing anyway?) & I really struggle to get as much lift through his back as the osteo would like (he is built a bit downhill so I am kinda fighting gravity here!). He also lands laterally on both fronts (to the point both me & trimmer were quite worried for a while) this has improved & if down to sidebone (our rough working theory) then I know it’s never going to be perfect but would be really interested to see if improving his posture improved his movement in front the extra little bit that I’d like. I know kinda where I want to end up but feel like I’m struggling to get there. There’s an in person clinic thingy just been announced a few hours away. Very tempted to see if I can get the day off work to take the pony along & see what it’s all about (or even to spectate if the horse places are full) I am someone who finds it easier to learn stuff like this in person as admittedly my own body awareness could be better (working on it but think some of it may be how my brain is wired…)

 

[Boulty]

Just to be clear if I were to try this & it were to work for me I’m not saying I’d throw all caution to the wind. More that he’s moving & working acceptably right now within the limitations of what we’re all happy with him doing & compared to how he was when he first started having issues but if we could get even more improvement that obviously would be wonderful & make me feel more comfortable to ask a bit more of him without feeling like he might break!

 

[Taliesan]

I've signed up to the masterclass and am doing it with both my horses.

Initially I was disappointed with the way it was set up as I was expecting a proper learning platform and it is just a series of Facebook guides / videos in a private group.

I did point out that the current setup isn't great to them and I was informed that they are looking at moving the content to a new platform soon.

It isn't clear where to start and there is a lot of filler chatter you've got to sit through on some of the videos in order to get the pearls of information.

That said, once you get into it I think the content is of huge value. For me, the way it is explained is almost like the last piece of the puzzle in terms of how to develop the thoracic sling and I'm, so far, seeing positive changes in both of my boys. They both enjoy the work and I've seen them put themselves in pillar one in their own time - so it must feel good to them or else they wouldn't choose to go there.

You've got to sift through the Facebook group to find the videos and examples of each pillar then work it out yourself with your own horses. You can always post on the group to get help but it certainly isn't a case of "do XYZ to get ABC".

The best way I can explain it is that the masterclass is about the methodology and understanding why the exercises do what they do.

I can completely understand why Celeste doesn't give out a list of exercises because of contraindications and a desire to make sure what is being done will do no harm to the horses. Some do see that as a money making exercise but I don't believe that is where she is coming from, in all honesty.

The three pillars that are talked about as part of the masterclass are simple (although not easy) enough that most people could do them and the horses would benefit.

I do also have regular lessons with Dan Wain (Manolo Mendez's methodology) so I can really see how what he teaches and what the masterclass / Celeste teaches are along the same lines. The end goal is the same but both have slightly different (but complimentary) ways of getting to the results.

I think that the BTMM stuff will feed in really nicely with what I do in my regular lessons and my horses will get the best of both worlds.

What's really helped me is that my trimmer (who is also my regular craniosacral person for my horses) is also doing the masterclass and my mum is as well. So I'm able to chat through things with both of them to progress my own understanding.

If anyone here is thinking of doing the masterclass and wants a pointer on where to start with the videos then I'm more than happy to help.

 

[stangs]

They both enjoy the work and I've seen them put themselves in pillar one in their own time - so it must feel good to them or else they wouldn't choose to go there.

This is what I don't get. Pillar 1 is just lowering the head ("to switch off brachiocephalicus") - that's something horses do naturally when there's nothing to worry about. So presumably they're not 'putting themselves in pillar one in their own time', they're just relaxing?

 

[Fieldlife]

. There’s an in person clinic thingy just been announced a few hours away. Very tempted to see if I can get the day off work to take the pony along & see what it’s all about (or even to spectate if the horse places are full) I am someone who finds it easier to learn stuff like this in person as admittedly my own body awareness could be better (working on it but think some of it may be how my brain is wired…)

When and where is that? Up North? Thanks

 

[AntiPuck]

I would say this would be more useful than treadmill sessions, it sits "below" most other in hand offerings, and provides a great base to help more complex work eg what you are doing, Manolo, Ritter, SOM etc.

This is pretty much how I have found it to be - it sets a good foundation to then build on top of for other types of ground or ridden work. It seems to have unraveled some physical (and subsequently psychological) issues for my horse, and now I feel able to add-in other things in our groundwork without worrying that i'm only strengthening asymmetry or bad posture (or at least not to the same extent).

In addition, i've recently started bringing her back into ridden work after 3 months off during which time I only did BTMM daily for 10 mins and 3 in-hand hacks per week, and she feels noticeably stronger, which I didn't necessarily expect due to the lack of work.

 

[Fieldlife]

This is what I don't get. Pillar 1 is just lowering the head ("to switch off brachiocephalicus") - that's something horses do naturally when there's nothing to worry about. So presumably they're not 'putting themselves in pillar one in their own time', they're just relaxing?

I think the idea is pillar 1 in halt, then pillar 1 in walk in hand. Than in other paces and ridden.

I get that a relaxed stationary horse in field would typically have brachiocephalicus switched off.

But many don’t whilst moving or being ridden. That’s what needs practicing. Many switch brachiocephalicus on when work gets harder Etc.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I had the only trained equine nerve release practitioner that is in the UK out on Thursday to treat Arabi she trained in the US with Celeste, it was quite interesting to watch and she has given me a few things to do one is the lowering of the head technique.

I decided to give it a try as we think he has mild nerve damage which makes him a mild head shaker, he can suffer with bad posture as well especially if something goes wrong, his had a few lameness issues and his body suffered a bit.

It's a treatment that can make them a bit worse for a while so it will be interesting to see how he goes.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

The "nerve treatment" stuff is downright sketchy at times, IMO.



I've got to step away from this thread now before I really say what I think and why I just can't play nice today!

 

[Taliesan]

This is what I don't get. Pillar 1 is just lowering the head ("to switch off brachiocephalicus") - that's something horses do naturally when there's nothing to worry about. So presumably they're not 'putting themselves in pillar one in their own time', they're just relaxing?

You're right, it is about switching off the brachiocephalicus but, from my own observation of my horses over the past few weeks, it is quite a small 'sweet spot' where the muscle is completely off.

Mine used to rest either just above or below that place so the muscle was still slightly engaged.

Since doing the BTMM stuff they are now trying to find that space themselves rather than resting either side of it.

I've also noticed in their ridden work and groundwork that they are both more open to disengaging the brachiocephalicus and moving using their thoracic sling muscles.

It is like they are exploring a new way of moving and, because it feels good to them, they are quite happy to go back there and try again.

As they get stronger they are more consistent at finding that place and working with the brachiocephalicus switched off.