Balance Through Movement Method - Celeste Lazaris

[SEL]

I had the only trained equine nerve release practitioner that is in the UK out on Thursday to treat Arabi she trained in the US with Celeste, it was quite interesting to watch and she has given me a few things to do one is the lowering of the head technique.

I decided to give it a try as we think he has mild nerve damage which makes him a mild head shaker, he can suffer with bad posture as well especially if something goes wrong, his had a few lameness issues and his body suffered a bit.

It's a treatment that can make them a bit worse for a while so it will be interesting to see how he goes.

I'd be interested to see how he does. A friend of mine is based near the same physio and was asking about it

The "nerve treatment" stuff is downright sketchy at times, IMO.

I've got to step away from this thread now before I really say what I think and why I just can't play nice today!

I don't think there's anything wrong with expressing your views - OP asked for opinions and I gave mine.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I'd be interested to see how he does. A friend of mine is based near the same physio and was asking about it



I don't think there's anything wrong with expressing your views - OP asked for opinions and I gave mine.

She is a very good physio as I have used her before for Louis I like her manner and I like the way she works.

 

[Reacher]

@SEL and @Reacher signed up forit with horses they own. They were both very helpful when I had (lots of!) questions

Sorry I just saw this thread and TPO’s posts. I’m currently at work and haven’t time to read all the replies at the minute or the linked COTH thread. So my reply is a bit rushed sorry.

I will just very briefly say that yes I did join the course and I’m afraid personally I don’t recommend it. You pay $150 dollars (or whatever ) expecting to get useful exercises, but basically have to trawl through very long verbose and rambling talking to camera Facebook videos on her general philiosophy (*) but which don’t explain the exercises clearly. There are only a few exercises mentioned, the few demo videos again aren’t very good. I’m not particularly thick or the only one who found it confusing judging by previous comments on FB and by the fact that there are follow up videos re-explaining the same exercises from previous videos.

For more information on exercises you are expected to sign up for individual sessions tailored to your horse at an eye watering hourly rate. I don’t intend to pay for any more content having been unimpressed by what was provided for the $150 (or whatever) already paid.

I spent ages trawling through the stuff on FB a few months ago (October) and have given up on it.
(It probably helps if you like FB and are happy spending all your time on it following new posts and are prepared to sift the 1% useful from the 99% dross! Bring old, grumpy and busy, I don’t )

I did get my head around the few exercises provided but don’t find them easy with my horse, I can’t see how one video conferencing session with someone who doesn’t know the horse will help. I am dubious about how effective they will be.

I think people are much better spending their money on a good local physio and instructor who can help them in person. (Of course part of the reason these sorts of courses get guru like status is due to a lack of good physios / instructors… And develop your own eye so you can see yourself if the horse is moving correctly )

* I don’t think there is anything novel about Celeste‘s “philosophy” which is basically that the horse needs to use itself correctly eg not loading its forehand, not moving like a giraffe , not moving crookedly etc. There are plenty of much better free videos explaining the role of the thoracic sling and correct movement eg 2 from Equitopia which I’ll provide links to .

I have been thinking about posting each time I see the course recommended but didn’t want to get into an argument. (I nearly posted all this on @Caol Ila’s thread but didn’t want to disrupt the thread but hopefully this might be helpful for her too)

 

[Boulty]

When and where is that? Up North? Thanks

Somewhere near Stafford I think it was?

 

[Fieldlife]

She is a very good physio as I have used her before for Louis I like her manner and I like the way she works.

Absolutely, already very good, and this is a few more strings to her bow.

AFAIK she will come out and treat your horse, and if requested give some help with how to do the pillars.

 

[Fieldlife]

Sorry I just saw this thread and TPO’s posts. I’m currently at work and haven’t time to read all the replies at the minute or the linked COTH thread. So my reply is a bit rushed sorry.

I will just very briefly say that yes I did join the course and I’m afraid personally I don’t recommend it. You pay $150 dollars (or whatever ) expecting to get useful exercises, but basically have to trawl through very long verbose and rambling talking to camera Facebook videos on her general philiosophy (*) but which don’t explain the exercises clearly. There are only a few exercises mentioned, the few demo videos again aren’t very good. I’m not particularly thick or the only one who found it confusing judging by previous comments on FB and by the fact that there are follow up videos re-explaining the same exercises from previous videos.

For more information on exercises you are expected to sign up for individual sessions tailored to your horse at an eye watering hourly rate. I don’t intend to pay for any more content having been unimpressed by what was provided for the $150 (or whatever) already paid.

I spent ages trawling through the stuff on FB a few months ago (October) and have given up on it.
(It probably helps if you like FB and are happy spending all your time on it following new posts and are prepared to sift the 1% useful from the 99% dross! Bring old, grumpy and busy, I don’t )

I did get my head around the few exercises provided but don’t find them easy with my horse, I can’t see how one video conferencing session with someone who doesn’t know the horse will help. I am dubious about how effective they will be.

I think people are much better spending their money on a good local physio and instructor who can help them in person. (Of course part of the reason these sorts of courses get guru like status is due to a lack of good physios / instructors… And develop your own eye so you can see yourself if the horse is moving correctly )

* I don’t think there is anything novel about Celeste‘s “philosophy” which is basically that the horse needs to use itself correctly eg not loading its forehand, not moving like a giraffe , not moving crookedly etc. There are plenty of much better free videos explaining the role of the thoracic sling and correct movement eg 2 from Equitopia which I’ll provide links to .

I have been thinking about posting each time I see the course recommended but didn’t want to get into an argument. (I nearly posted all this on @Caol Ila’s thread but didn’t want to disrupt the thread but hopefully this might be helpful for her too)

I thought the BTMM Master Class Facebook group was good value for the information provided and the way of thinking and the focus.

I joined at a time when why horse was having 5 weeks off ridden work, so timing worked well for me. I think it has got bigger and a bit more chaotic since last year. I think there was more individual attention for free when I joined. I had pivo and posted quite a lot of video clips at the time, and got useful feedback from the admin experts. (Then n

Information is not best organised, but there are a number of guides, guide videos. I also paid a further $20 dollars for a very clear training guide from one of the admin experts on how to do the pillars, with playback and overlaid commentary which was helpful.

There are a number of long winded live videos, but I listened to the multiple times as audios while driving, which was fine.

Personally my horse has a good chiro, physio and sports massage therapist, all see him regularly. I am proficient at long reining / in hand work / ground work / gymnastic pole work etc. He has his saddle checked every 3 months, he has annual foot balance x-rays, teeth every six months, we have lots of lessons etc. The BTMM is an extra rather than an instead.

I dont think it has transformed us. But I do think we have benefited.

 

[southerncomfort]

Genuine question...

I did a quick search on YouTube and found several (free) videos on developing the thoracic sling.

Is their anything mindblowingly different about what Celeste does that justifies the £150?

 

[sbloom]

There is a ton of exercises and thoughts out there about what can help lift the thoracic sling, some of them will work, some (many of them) really don't, and some of the former cause other compensations. I'm quite sure BTMM isn't the only one that works AND doesn't cause compensations, but that's the ethos behind it - never cause another part of the body to get worse. What I see in my job would scare half of you, dysfunctional horses that are in a programme with a physio, vet or other bodyworker.

BTMM seeks to "train" the horse to carry itself better all the time, horses are even seen moving way better in the field. I see pole work, backing up, triggered lifts and stretches, in fact all sorts of things purporting to lift the TS, that instead actually strengthen the existing asymmetry and dysfunction.

I see the logic in the progression in the BTMM movements, avoiding these compensations - look at all the muscles a horse has to use to tuck the pelvis from scratches, if it's moving incorrectly behind because it's stuck in front what are the odds it's using those muscles correctly?

Those that do see value in the course can bang on and on about all the amazing professionals that do endorse her work, if you follow comments and linkages on FB you'll find plenty of them. That was the basis on which I looked into it more. Look at the venues in the UK that are getting Yasmin to come and do clinics, they will be onside with BTMM.

You can either take that and decide to do it and give it your best shot, despite the messy nature of the resources (and it's $150, not pounds, and the course WILL be much more structured once it's on her website), understanding it's about the how, about the changes in horse and handler, about the skills you gain, as well as the rehab for your horse - much less than the "what". Or you can decide it's not for you, just as no course will be for everyone.

 

[SEL]

Genuine question...

I did a quick search on YouTube and found several (free) videos on developing the thoracic sling.

Is their anything mindblowingly different about what Celeste does that justifies the £150?

For me the way the FB site is set up then I would say not to spend the $150 at the moment. If her programme develops then I may change that view. You'd be better spending the money having the physio who has done some training with her out for a hands on assessment.

Just my opinion though and others definitely have different views.

 

[sbloom]

I'd also like to comment that the course only got pushed out due to pressure from her customers, I think she raced it out as quickly as she could, added content as she went, but then realised people were struggling to follow it (far from everyone, but enough). She's not got fancy marketing stuff behind her, despite the impression this discussion is giving. It has grown way faster than she ever imagined possible and is now on catch up. These things aren't easy to pull together, kudos to those who do but often they have business and social media coaches behind them (I suspect she may have taken on both recently in an effort to try and get on top of things!).

I think Yasmin is going to be very busy, she's quit her job working in a college part time as the level of demand has been insane.

 

[Goldenstar]

Genuine question...

I did a quick search on YouTube and found several (free) videos on developing the thoracic sling.

Is their anything mindblowingly different about what Celeste does that justifies the £150?

Well I think the loads of good stuff on you tube and if you google that can help people learn .
A really good start point is to study and learn the horses anatomy and learn where it’s muscles are you don’t need the level of detail that a fully trained physio will have but a basic working knowledge just helps you so much .
What you can’t learn on a online course or off the internet is how to ride how to physically develop your own position and skills for that I think you need a trainer on the ground preferably one who is interested in and understands the nut and bolts of developing position .
Its hard to develop feel without a basically correct position .
Without feel how can you influence the horse without understand training you’re stuffed .
No one person will come a do this for you ,you need to be on your own training journey using lots of different resources .
Good traditional training should gives you the tools to understand and develop your system.
I see,I think a lot of people going round in a fog working hard and not getting anywhere .
It took me a while to learn how to learn but I am still learning today once you get it sussed life is just so much easier .

 

[Caol Ila]

Hasn't teaching the horse a better posture for carrying a rider - relaxed through base of the neck, lifting its back, stepping under with its hind legs, not hollow - been around since, you know, forever? From the snippets I can glean on here and on the COTH thread, a lot of this training is about that sort of thing.

Not that many people ride like this, of course. We all know the world is full of horses running around like llamas. Braced through the neck, tight through the back, etc. etc. However, there is a lot of fairly accessible biomechanics information out there, which gives all sorts of exercises for helping your horse carry him/herself better. There are many roads to Rome and all that.

Regardless of the validity of what she is teaching, Celeste's reported reactions when questioned about degrees and credentials she may or may not have makes me want to run a mile.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Hasn't teaching the horse a better posture for carrying a rider - relaxed through base of the neck, lifting its back, stepping under with its hind legs, not hollow - been around since, you know, forever?

I thought that was the basis of proper dressage and riding basics in general.

 

[AntiPuck]

Not that many people ride like this, of course. We all know the world is full of horses running around like llamas. Braced through the neck, tight through the back, etc. etc. However, there is a lot of fairly accessible biomechanics information out there, which gives all sorts of exercises for helping your horse carry him/herself better. There are many roads to Rome and all that.

I really don't think there is, though (and if there is, please point me to it, i'd love to have more tools in the box) - a lot of the stuff I found (and was told to do by others inc. physios), as a newbie to all of this, was very clearly not helping my horse but I didn't know why not, or what else to do - the BTMM stuff has been the only thing i've tried that I can honestly say I can tell has helped/is helping, and has also taught me a lot about why the things I was doing before weren't really making a positive difference

 

[TPO]

I really don't think there is, though (and if there is, please point me to it, i'd love to have more tools in the box) - a lot of the stuff I found (and was told to do by others inc. physios), as a newbie to all of this, was very clearly not helping my horse but I didn't know why not, or what else to do - the BTMM stuff has been the only thing i've tried that I can honestly say I can tell has helped/is helping, and has also taught me a lot about why the things I was doing before weren't really making a positive difference

I like Vet Physio Phyle for easily accessible information. She also does excellent anatomy learning cards from her uni days along with e books of exercises.































































































































On instagram @revitalizingequine is an easy follow with stacks of info. She offers paid online courses (never looked into) but there's enough info available to know wha t you're getting into.















I can't see past the Gillian Higgins Inside Out books (& demos) for learning about anatomy and function. There are dvds too for people who learn better that way.















55 Corrective Exercises for Horses is a good book for exercises















I really like From Warming Up to Cooling Down ad an all encompassing entry level books to holistic care and conditioning.

 

[Fieldlife]

Hasn't teaching the horse a better posture for carrying a rider - relaxed through base of the neck, lifting its back, stepping under with its hind legs, not hollow - been around since, you know, forever? From the snippets I can glean on here and on the COTH thread, a lot of this training is about that sort of thing.

Not that many people ride like this, of course. We all know the world is full of horses running around like llamas. Braced through the neck, tight through the back, etc. etc. However, there is a lot of fairly accessible biomechanics information out there, which gives all sorts of exercises for helping your horse carry him/herself better. There are many roads to Rome and all that.

Regardless of the validity of what she is teaching, Celeste's reported reactions when questioned about degrees and credentials she may or may not have makes me want to run a mile.

AFAIK - Celeste grew up with horse trainers as parents (think were foster parents?) and has done a lot of riding, training and successful high level competing.

Never believed in bodywork. Then had a good bodyworker offer to treat a horse she was schooling for free. Made a huge difference. Then had all her horses in for training have bodywork first. Then trained as a bodyworker. Then realised that her bodywork was fixing horses, and her training methods were putting them back in disfunction. She stopped training / teaching / competing at this point.

Until she could work out a way to ride / train in a way to improve horse's body function. I think she has been initially surprised at how successful the changes she makes are to each horse. Then she started doing this locally and was encouraged to share it wider. The hapazard nature, and the lack of planning, and the way it has grown anyway, without any advertising must say something about the benefits I think.

I dont think she pretends to be anything she isnt. I do think her methods and her bodywork has transformed a number of horses.

How well it translates on line for people trying to do it remotely is another question, suspect that depends on the person and their skillset.

To be honest, I dont know why all the challenge and negativity across the internet. If you have a functional horse with a strong front, lifted withers and back, and good topline and posture, keep doing what you are doing. If you think you having some extra knowledge in this area would help, and you have tried covering the basics yourself (all checks, bodywork, training you have access to isnt helping) and you want more knowledge, and are prepared to do slow in hand work over period of time, consider paying to join the BTMM facebook group. If you already have access to sufficient knowledge of how to build your horse's topline etc. then you dont need to join the group.

 

[Fieldlife]

>>I like Vet Physio Phyle for easily accessible information. She also does excellent anatomy learning cards from her uni days along with e books of exercises.
>>On instagram @revitalizingequine is an easy follow with stacks of info. She offers paid online courses (never looked into) but there's enough info available to know wha t you're getting into.
>>I can't see past the Gillian Higgins Inside Out books (& demos) for learning about anatomy and function. There are dvds too for people who learn better that way.
>>55 Corrective Exercises for Horses is a good book for exercises
>>I really like From Warming Up to Cooling Down ad an all encompassing entry level books to holistic care and conditioning.

I follow the first two, I have some of Gillian's books and done some of the training material.
I love 55 Corrective Exercises for Horses book.
I havent heard of From Warming Up to Cooling Down but have a number of good books on pole work / cavelleti / in handwork / groundwork.

Doesnt lessen the fact I learnt a new appreciation and way of looking at horses and training from BTMM.

I think learning is a more and more approach, and not limited to either / or choices.

 

[Otherwise]

I like Vet Physio Phyle for easily accessible information. She also does excellent anatomy learning cards from her uni days along with e books of exercises.

I saw an interesting video from her on fb
https://fb.watch/iYzFMjpe26/

Although she's releasing her own course at a whopping £350
https://vetphysiophyle.co.uk/ferapproach/

 

[sbloom]

Lots of good stuff in there but equally someone very knowledgeable who had been working on 55 Exercises had struggled with some of the exercises, BTMM helped her work out why, corrected the issue and helped her be able to tackle the exercises better AND deliver a better programme to her customers.

I would add Tami Elkyam to the list (sorry if I've already mentioned her), I think her owners' course is probably exceptional, but she's not a rider and I'm not sure the work flows into ridden work in quit the same way. Of many others I would also say go look at the horses used to demonstrate/illustrate - how is their musculature, do they have ridged shoulders, dips in the front of the wither, do their torsos look in at least horizontal balance, are their under-necks completely relaxed? I find these to be lacking in many "industry standard" courses etc. I see differing opinions on what different muscles and structures DO, how the work with other bits in the body - we still aren't there with understanding how horses work and I think some of the well known stuff falls short of a better overall understanding of posture and compensations a bit like most vets not really seeing it.

Purchasing an inexpensive online course, DVD or book can work for some, but with no feedback or support it just doesn't work in the same way as a supported group/programme IMO. And hardly any of them touch on how to BE with your horse, how to help them deregulate (how to deregulate ourselves first!) and how to develop your own observation skills. I see riders transformed as much as horses with BTMM. I used to recommend Manolo's DVD at half to a third of the price but people struggled with the work and gave up pretty quickly, it takes more skill level than people realise. I have a long list of groundwork links I send to people, but BTMM is the number one as in theory anyone can do it and it will benefit them and their horse.

Equitopia (who themselves endorse Celeste and I think have been cited as a good resource by one of the criticisers) have some great starter resources, the ones on topline syndrome help shift people's understanding massively - we are USED to horses with terrible toplines, but also not so obvious ones, terribly ridged undermuscled shoulders...horses moving base narrow..all sorts of issues that people think are normal or conformational. So Equitopia does a good job at that, and the more in-depth stuff might be very good (I just have the basic monthly membership) but it's still not the same as having ongoing support, even if that is "only" a FB group, though bear in mind it's lifetime membership and you can take any number of horses through the work. Could be exceptional value for some.

For support you might be able to find someone IRL who's amazing (make sure your bar is high enough for judging this), you might be able to find someone somewhere in the world that can do online 1 to 1 sessions with you, but otherwise you might just find this useful. I think once someone takes on board that there is a lifetime's learning out there they can see there is value in these real fundamentals and THEN moving onto Manolo, ST, Sonya Reitkurst Weber, all the amazing programmes that are out there. You'll have a better relationship with yourself and your horse, better groundwork skills and your horse, unless you hit the ultimate block when doing the work, will be better placed to do it correctly.

I think I'm out of explanations, I find the vitriol hard to stomach too @Fieldlife.

 

[AntiPuck]

Your post came out with huge spaces inbetween each sentence for me, TPO, so the quote isn't really working, not sure why

VetPhysioPhyle I did try to buy a webinar from, but it never arrived and then she ignored my messages asking about it for months, so that left a really bad taste in my mouth as i'd paid for nothing, basically.

I do like Gillian Higgins' stuff and some of the Jec Ballou vids on Youtube also looked useful, but this is exactly the sort of stuff that I was doing with my horse before which I could see wasn't helping - now that we've spent the time unravelling some of the body issues and building better posture, I feel able to start adding some of the exercises from these resources back in, and more equipped to assess whether we're doing them correctly or not.

As an example, my horse backed-up like a giraffe before, and Jec has some great vids about progressive backing, eventually going up hills etc. I did start doing this and thought it was helping because she could do more and more steps, but then realised my horse was just bracing every time - now, having done the BTTM stuff, we can get a nice, soft back-up without the neck brace - so now, I might think of going back to progressively harder backing-up exercises, because she stands to benefit from it more now - but also without 'number of steps' being the main success metric.

I will also take a look at the other account you mentioned.

As someone else said, I don't think it needs to be an either-or thing, all of these resources have something to offer.

 

[nikicb]

I signed up when I had 4 horses, now down to 3. All have some dysfunction even if its just being a gangly youngster and I was on my final year of an equine massage diploma so interested in seeing what Celeste was promoting. I'm an Analyst by training and career so have a tendency to work out the good, the bad and the ugly with promotions and BTMM is no different!

The Good
- huge amount of information on the FB page. Professionals that know their stuff comment on posts that people share. The general public are not allowed to start commenting so you don't get 100 different opinions. Excellent technical explanations on thoracic sling
- a strong focus on freeing up the front end. This won't be 'new news' to anyone truly versed in classic training but it is new news to anyone who has been taught that a tight outline in front is what they should be aiming for. I had a friend waffle on about how it is totally different to anything she's ever been taught and I had to ask her if that was genuinely true - but I think if you've been told to hold a horse in a tight contact and drive from behind then this will be very different.
- anyone who has done straightness training will recognise the principles. For me Celeste's explanations made more sense than Marijke (but that can come down to learning style)

The Bad
- FB is a real PITA to navigate. Good comments on posts disappear into the FB memory bank never to be seen again.
- It isn't a course so much as a collection of information. If you join expecting 'follow points A - Z and ta da you'll have a perfect horse' you'll be disappointed within 10 minutes
- I truly believe most people would be better off having a really good vet physio (or ACPAT or bodyworker of choice) lay hands on their horse before anyone does any programme to strengthen the thoracic sling. Especially given the majority of people joining the masterclass have horses with biomechanical issues.
- The initial exercises are basic by necessity. No bodyworker is going to give out more complex guidance without laying hands on a horse. Zoom sessions are offered but personally I think they are limited in their usefulness in this type of programme. There is one instructor in the UK.
- I'm yet to be convinced that these are the right exercises for every horse in every situation and the 'one size fits all' promotion makes me uncomfortable. I've seen a friend doing pillar 1 (down and forwards part of straightness training) with a downhill cob who is already heavy on her forehand and likely has some physical issues in her pelvic / SI type area. I doubt she's going to be engaging her thoracic sling in any sense until that back end issue is resolved. I also doubt that if Celeste saw the pony IRL she'd be suggesting she walks with her head down either, but that's the shortcomings of online information.
- I'm yet to be convinced that freeing up the front end is the right way to develop the thoracic sling of every horse. One of my case study horses is definitely using his back end badly shown by his muscle development. That needs specific focus.
- The American ethos is to tell everyone they are going a Great Job. TBH I find it hard to tell from the vast majority of photos as to whether there is improvement because its pretty impossible for most of us to replicate the photo we took 3 months ago. But I'm a cynical Brit who feels that she is not doing a Great Job!!
- Lack of before and after videos. A few have been posted but I'm not really seeing fabulous improvements. Definitely seen some posted by professionals which look good but not average Jo types.


In general I think the focus on thoracic sling development and trying to teach the average rider what good and bad looks like is great. There's a lot of good stuff on Equitopia and if you put Celeste's name into Youtube search function there are some podcasts around where she talks about her approach.

And I've written war and peace.....

Thank you for your very comprehensive reply. I did a fair bit of straightness training with my previous mare, and do understand Marijke's approach, but that it probably because I was able to have several in person sessions with a couple of different instructors at the beginning of my journey. I only really stopped because once we moved onto the slightly more advanced in hand lateral work, the aids were different to those I use with DTB and I didn't want to comfuse my horse (or me!!). When I got my current mare, I did do quite a lot of forward down, as much as a relaxation exercise as anything, as she was tense and spooky in new situations and walking her in hand for a little while whilst stretching was a good way to get her to settle. She's also a horse who shortens her neck when tense, so it's been good for getting her longer in the frame as well.

Sorry I just saw this thread and TPO’s posts. I’m currently at work and haven’t time to read all the replies at the minute or the linked COTH thread. So my reply is a bit rushed sorry.

I will just very briefly say that yes I did join the course and I’m afraid personally I don’t recommend it. You pay $150 dollars (or whatever ) expecting to get useful exercises, but basically have to trawl through very long verbose and rambling talking to camera Facebook videos on her general philiosophy (*) but which don’t explain the exercises clearly. There are only a few exercises mentioned, the few demo videos again aren’t very good. I’m not particularly thick or the only one who found it confusing judging by previous comments on FB and by the fact that there are follow up videos re-explaining the same exercises from previous videos.

For more information on exercises you are expected to sign up for individual sessions tailored to your horse at an eye watering hourly rate. I don’t intend to pay for any more content having been unimpressed by what was provided for the $150 (or whatever) already paid.

I spent ages trawling through the stuff on FB a few months ago (October) and have given up on it.
(It probably helps if you like FB and are happy spending all your time on it following new posts and are prepared to sift the 1% useful from the 99% dross! Bring old, grumpy and busy, I don’t )

I did get my head around the few exercises provided but don’t find them easy with my horse, I can’t see how one video conferencing session with someone who doesn’t know the horse will help. I am dubious about how effective they will be.

I think people are much better spending their money on a good local physio and instructor who can help them in person. (Of course part of the reason these sorts of courses get guru like status is due to a lack of good physios / instructors… And develop your own eye so you can see yourself if the horse is moving correctly )

* I don’t think there is anything novel about Celeste‘s “philosophy” which is basically that the horse needs to use itself correctly eg not loading its forehand, not moving like a giraffe , not moving crookedly etc. There are plenty of much better free videos explaining the role of the thoracic sling and correct movement eg 2 from Equitopia which I’ll provide links to .

I have been thinking about posting each time I see the course recommended but didn’t want to get into an argument. (I nearly posted all this on @Caol Ila’s thread but didn’t want to disrupt the thread but hopefully this might be helpful for her too)

Thanks for your reply - it's great to hear from people who actually have signed up for the masterclass, and hopefully others will find your feedback useful too.

@TPO - thanks for the various suggestions. I watched a webinar from Inside Out a while back and found it very useful. My now retired body worker also did a half day course in a similar vein with all the muscles coloured in and various stretches etc, which again was informative - those sort of sessions are always worth a look at if they are put on by someone who knows their stuff, especially if you are a visual learner. The Vet Physio Phyle website looks interesting - she's actually not that far from me (closer to where I kept horses for many years and where I still have many horsey friends), and I am surprised I haven't heard of her before.



Thank you to everyone who has replied on this thread - every contribution is valued, and it is useful to understand differing points of view. I am a great believer that you can learn something from everyone, even if it is a case of listening to what they have to say, and deciding it isn't for you. I am glad I posted as it's obviously a topic that many people have thoughts about. I won't necessarily respond any more as I think I now know how I feel, but the floor is certainly open to anyone who wishes to comment further.

 

[Dexter]

There is a ton of exercises and thoughts out there about what can help lift the thoracic sling, some of them will work, some (many of them) really don't, and some of the former cause other compensations. I'm quite sure BTMM isn't the only one that works AND doesn't cause compensations, but that's the ethos behind it - never cause another part of the body to get worse. What I see in my job would scare half of you, dysfunctional horses that are in a programme with a physio, vet or other bodyworker.

BTMM seeks to "train" the horse to carry itself better all the time, horses are even seen moving way better in the field. I see pole work, backing up, triggered lifts and stretches, in fact all sorts of things purporting to lift the TS, that instead actually strengthen the existing asymmetry and dysfunction.

I see the logic in the progression in the BTMM movements, avoiding these compensations - look at all the muscles a horse has to use to tuck the pelvis from scratches, if it's moving incorrectly behind because it's stuck in front what are the odds it's using those muscles correctly?

Those that do see value in the course can bang on and on about all the amazing professionals that do endorse her work, if you follow comments and linkages on FB you'll find plenty of them. That was the basis on which I looked into it more. Look at the venues in the UK that are getting Yasmin to come and do clinics, they will be onside with BTMM.

You can either take that and decide to do it and give it your best shot, despite the messy nature of the resources (and it's $150, not pounds, and the course WILL be much more structured once it's on her website), understanding it's about the how, about the changes in horse and handler, about the skills you gain, as well as the rehab for your horse - much less than the "what". Or you can decide it's not for you, just as no course will be for everyone.

Have you paid to do the course?

 

[sbloom]

Have you paid to do the course?

No, I don't have a horse, I'm in the Master Class group and have several clients doing it.

 

[Dexter]

I think I'm out of explanations, I find the vitriol hard to stomach too @Fieldlife.

Where is the vitriol? There have been questions and criticisms from people who have bought the membership, as well as lots of positive. If someone wants to create something like this and hide it behind a paywall with no information about it other than very lengthy podcasts then there's bound to be speculation.

 

[Fieldlife]

Have you paid to do the course?

AFAIK Celeste doesn’t charge professional bodyworkers / saddlers etc to enter the masterclass group. As she’s wanting them to have access to the information. Certainly used to be that way.

It is the horse owners and riders that do pay. Personally I think that is pretty generous.

 

[sbloom]

She saw my comments on her news feed and added me to the group, my colleagues in Canada are the "official" saddle fitters on there. That's the other thing, there is a lot of hoof form/function input, saddle fitting, bodyworkers, breathwork from Amber Lydic, I mean you name it, there's all sorts of extra (mostly free) content in there.

 

[GinaGeo]

I have paid for it and have found it both interesting and useful.

It is presented in a chaotic and disjointed way. And it did take awhile to figure it all out. It would be much improved if that was tidied up, organised better and a little less rambling.

However, there are some gems of information. And it highlighted to me that whilst I had done a lot of work on one of my horses thoracic sling, he actually needed a whole lot more on an even more basic level. Even more so than other professionals were suggesting. It has almost been like teaching him to meditate, helping him to think about his body and what it’s doing. As a super busy horse, it’s something he finds difficult.

His physio’s suggested exercises of pole work, backing up hill, stretches etc. Were limited by the fact that to be able to do those things, he was bracing up in the wrong places. Doing the BTTM stuff first means the other stuff is more effective.

For me it certainly hasn’t replaced bodywork, training or vets. But it is another tool in the toolkit.

 

[SEL]

I thought that was the basis of proper dressage and riding basics in general.

Should be - but isn't.

My instructor moved to Wales. Trying to find another instructor who isn't all about the hand wiggling, bring the neck in, make it look pretty stuff is much harder than it should be. Either that or chase from behind so they're moving forward, irrespective of balance.

@sbloom there IS some vitriol around about Celeste which I find odd but the vast majority of criticism I've seen isn't the nasty personal stuff she's apparently had recently. Most of it is related to her professional offering and people's thoughts on it. I think that should be expected

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Some of the "vitriol" toward her is warranted though. Some of use just have far less tolerance for those that lie and embellish. So I don't find it all that odd.

I'm not saying that her programme is a total fail or not worth it for some people and their horses. I do like that some riders are becoming more aware of their horses body, so I'd never discourage that, but we all make our choices re who we give our money to and whatnot.

 

[Palindrome]

I haven't signed and personnally I am not convinced.
The "sternum lift" from the video in COTH was shown to me by a dressage trainer 10 years ago.
Also, I don't see much or any difference in the before and after pictures posted on Facebook, I think the horses look the same.