Balance Through Movement Method - Celeste Lazaris

[RachelFerd]

Oof, that COTH thread is quite a thing. So, so many big red warning flags.

 

[musk]

I have signed up for Celeste's Masterclass and have some thoughts on it:
1) The content is messy, it didn't actually bother me but that is most likely a reflection of how my mind works!
2)I have used other resources before and done some groundwork, what was never made clear to me was that the position of the head and neck is crucial to the success of these exercises and nowhere has been prescriptive about this for me before- this is what has been the huge bonus for me so I am no longer just strengthening the already existing tense and overworked wrong muscles.
3)Do I think access to the Facebook group is worth the price, probably not. I do feel it should be much cheaper for what you get or possibly you should get a 1 to 1 included for that price. BUT do I regret paying for it DEFINITELY NOT! so not sure that clears anything up for anyone.
4)The experts do make suggestions to get other things checked if you post photos. Reading other people's posts made me think more deeply about hoof balance and that is what has ultimately led to me unlocking my boys issues. The difference in him is nothing short of amazing (adding some wedges in hinds)
5) I actually really enjoy the quality time is has let me have with my horse, although this obviously won't be limited to Celeste's groundwork.
6) I do feel there is a bit too much of a push for people to book expensive sessions with experts but if you word your posts on the group carefully you can get answers to quite a lot of questions without signing up for anything additional.
7) The jury is out for me on the whole processing and nerve release bits but I also don't feel it is doing any harm whatsoever and relaxing with your horse is always going to be a lovely experience whether they are processing as claimed or not.

Overall I like the Masterclass and am glad I signed up. I am a member of a Facebook group that seems to really hate Celeste and her Masterclass and gets quite angry when her course is mentioned but in all the videos I see the exercises being done with dipped backs which to me is strengthening disfunction, it's disappointing as the exercises themselves look good but don't appear to be done in the correct position but I am not going to attack the group owner in any way, I am sure they have good intentions.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Oof, that COTH thread is quite a thing. So, so many big red warning flags.

I do feel that a lot of that thread seems to be speculation/gossip

I'm much more interested to hear from people who have actually used Celeste's techniques, and found them to benefit their horses. It seems a lot of people really rate her Balance Through Movement Method. Quite a lot of people on various biomechanics social media groups say it has helped their horses tremendously.

Whether the Masterclass is easy enough to follow for the average recreational horse owner is another matter. If it is made into more of a proper 'course' in the future, I would be interested to sign up.

Like others have said on this thread, it may not encompass everything, but is another useful tool to add to the kit.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I do feel that a lot of that thread seems to be speculation/gossip

Yeah, because actual screenshots of interactions and reviews from people who have tried the program but weren't completely enamored by it must be gossip and speculation. As you said though, you only want to hear from people who have used the techniques and benefited from them (well, their horses, anyway). So you only want to hear the good?


Look, I think a lot of people know F all when it comes to so many aspects of the horse. This includes many of the things that Celeste touches on. I think that the programme is attractive because it's accessible to soo many, and her marketing isn't too shabby either. Some of the content is also alright.

It's just that in the USA and on social media anyone can say they are x, y, and z. This is a huge thing in the horse world. There are so many trends, fads, and self proclaimed experts out there, and a lot of people just jumping on bandwagons. Then when you ask questions, they get defensive because they're not even sure if they understand or stand behind what they're doing.

If it helps you and your horse, then great. I also think that it's entirely possible to join a program or work with someone in person, and just take away the pieces that are valuable to you and leave the rest. So many people might be doing that with Celeste too.

However, there are negative things about her and her programme that should not be swept under the rug or chalked up to gossip and speculation. As I said previously, some of us place more value on this than others.

It's entirely possible to work with someone or some entity and have a good experience while someone else had a poor one. Both experiences are valid.

I'm just curious to see how this plays out and what the next thing will be. Maybe I'm just jaded, but this programme involves a lot of basic understanding and common sense about the horses body that can be picked up if you're around them and attentive for long enough. Or if you know how to properly develop a horse. So it just seems like another "thing" and soon we'll move onto the next thing and/or guru. Social medial really perpetuates this.

Sometimes I do have to remember that things that come so naturally to me (or seem so basic) doesn't necessarily come so naturally to others. So that could be why I don't get certain crazes. I'm always willing to learn and do a lot of learning, but I've just become more "picky" re who I give my money to, I guess.

 

[sbloom]

Overall I like the Masterclass and am glad I signed up. I am a member of a Facebook group that seems to really hate Celeste and her Masterclass and gets quite angry when her course is mentioned but in all the videos I see the exercises being done with dipped backs which to me is strengthening disfunction, it's disappointing as the exercises themselves look good but don't appear to be done in the correct position but I am not going to attack the group owner in any way, I am sure they have good intentions.

Oh I know well the group you mean! I got banned as I'd blocked admin (for good reason!)

 

[SEL]

Oh I know well the group you mean! I got banned as I'd blocked admin (for good reason!)

I've just been booted from that one - for putting a supportive comment under a video of a NQR horse No loss!

 

[sbloom]

Maybe I'm just jaded, but this programme involves a lot of basic understanding and common sense about the horses body that can be picked up if you're around them and attentive for long enough.

I think it goes beyond common sense for almost everyone, I don't think the work that a lot of these US horsemanship women (Amy Skinner, Andrea Mills, Milestone, Amber Lydic, Tara Davis etc) post is common knowledge over here at all. We have a handful of similar practitioners here, they just post less to SM. So I think not only is at least some of it new knowledge to way more people than I think you do but yes, there is a ton of people out there who need to learn better observational skills, to sit, to watch, to be, to allow, to be present. Self regulation. Very few courses, for this sort of money, offer all this. And whatever the personal stuff against Celeste that I am not aware of, many of those that don't get on with the course will not be ready for/suited to this sort of mindful approach to horsemanship. Others won't get on with it because it's messy, and I'm sure there are other reasons too, but for some people they just don't see the validity in this sort of work and want to crack on.

There are clearly a lot of well respected people who are also being somewhat duped https://www.facebook.com/DorothyMar...6rpw77HBvm4HHFiQed7pp7NQt343jK2my9RhFmbfVBRBl.

 

[stangs]

Overall I like the Masterclass and am glad I signed up. I am a member of a Facebook group that seems to really hate Celeste and her Masterclass and gets quite angry when her course is mentioned but in all the videos I see the exercises being done with dipped backs which to me is strengthening disfunction, it's disappointing as the exercises themselves look good but don't appear to be done in the correct position but I am not going to attack the group owner in any way, I am sure they have good intentions.

4 word title, 1st and 3rd are the same word?

 

[Otherwise]

There are clearly a lot of well respected people who are also being somewhat duped

I mean it's not unheard of for well respected people to make errors of judgement sometimes, after all David O'Connor and Walter Zettl teamed up with the Parellis.

 

[sbloom]

I mean it's not unheard of for well respected people to make errors of judgement sometimes, after all David O'Connor and Walter Zettl teamed up with the Parellis.

Oh absolutely, it certainly happens, but I don't think the arguments against Celeste are the same as those against the Parellis? Difficult to know when everyone's so cagey, or seems to go trawling through her FB feed and abusing her family (though of course that might be a fib, who knows).

I'd not be working with anyone that whacks a horse around the face with a heavy brass lead rope attachment and I was very disappointed when Herr Zettl joined forces with them, as was most of the UDBB back in the day. I sincerely hope this is not the same, but as yet if the issues are personal and not the work then I would weight it in the balance.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I think it goes beyond common sense for almost everyone, I don't think the work that a lot of these US horsemanship women (Amy Skinner, Andrea Mills, Milestone, Amber Lydic, Tara Davis etc) post is common knowledge over here at all. We have a handful of similar practitioners here, they just post less to SM. So I think not only is at least some of it new knowledge to way more people than I think you do but yes, there is a ton of people out there who need to learn better observational skills, to sit, to watch, to be, to allow, to be present. Self regulation. Very few courses, for this sort of money, offer all this. And whatever the personal stuff against Celeste that I am not aware of, many of those that don't get on with the course will not be ready for/suited to this sort of mindful approach to horsemanship. Others won't get on with it because it's messy, and I'm sure there are other reasons too, but for some people they just don't see the validity in this sort of work and want to crack on.

There are clearly a lot of well respected people who are also being somewhat duped https://www.facebook.com/DorothyMar...6rpw77HBvm4HHFiQed7pp7NQt343jK2my9RhFmbfVBRBl.

I will say that it goes well beyond common sense for a lot of people in Germany, that's for sure. I did a fair amount of riding and hanging around the yard/horses as a young person in the USA. The yard was run by a family and some of them had excellent horsemanship and a phenomenal understanding of the horse. I've found my background to be more "unique" than I originally thought it was. Several of my German friends are continously blown away by things that I thought were common knowledge and just the way of things. So sometimes it's hard for me to grasp th it's not...even though I've seen over and over again how clueless many people are (you don't know what you don't know).

Also, definitions of "well respected" may vary... And people no matter how well respected do get duped on the regular. So..

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Oh absolutely, it certainly happens, but I don't think the arguments against Celeste are the same as those against the Parellis? Difficult to know when everyone's so cagey, or seems to go trawling through her FB feed and abusing her family (though of course that might be a fib, who knows).

I'd not be working with anyone that whacks a horse around the face with a heavy brass lead rope attachment and I was very disappointed when Herr Zettl joined forces with them, as was most of the UDBB back in the day. I sincerely hope this is not the same, but as yet if the issues are personal and not the work then I would weight it in the balance.

LOL

Ok. My discussion with you ends here. There's clearly no point.

 

[sbloom]

I was not accusing you of trawling and abusing, just that it's going on. There's always a point to discussion but unless I'm given firm information then I think what I said above is absolutely fair. No matter.

 

[musk]

4 word title, 1st and 3rd are the same word?

Yes!

 

[TPO]

Firstly, apologies for the random formatting of my posts. There's an ongoing thread in the feedback section about the forum making some posts go wild. My cursor jumps all over the place so that I'm typing in the middle of an existing word, it throws in massive spaces between paragraphs and even if it looks ok when I hit post it has a freak out and ends up as a huge blank post. If I try to edit it the whole forum crashes for me. It's fun... So I've snuck on here on my work laptop to try and make it easier to share my worthless opinions on BTTM.

Secondly, what I really need to do is speak with @Ambers Echo and get her to articulate my thoughts like she did so well on the Big Horse Guru thread! As that's not possible you'll just have to make do with my seemingly endless rambling.

I think that the most important thing to know about horse training, in all it's forms, is that there is nothing new under the sun. Some stuff is packaged up differently, some fall out of favour and some require a membership but there's no reinventing the wheel.

As a self confessed horse geek with a strong interest in anatomy, healthy function and horse welfare the BTTM seemed right up my street and I was motivated to find out more. That was the first stumbling block because I couldn't find an accessible way to find out more info and what I would be getting for my $150 without paying my $150.

On the one hand I completely get that Celeste was just doing her thing, and doing well out of it, with no need to create anything else for anyone else. She made the FB page and the $150 granted access to it to do with as you please. She hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, put the hard sell on anyone and of course no one is obligated to buy anything that they don't want to. So you pays your money, you take your chance.

I personally feel that there is some sort of moral obligation to provide "something" for the money. Even if that something is just an introduction to the ethos of the BTTM work and that the money simply grants access to further information. I know that I asked a lot of questions because I didn't know what she was providing other than talk of Pillar work and some 3hr video.

With all that in mind I don't understand why she is receiving abuse and threats. If what she is selling isn't for you, don't buy it. I don't understand the mentality of those that behave in that manner.

As I said I've never seen or read anything but Celeste that sells herself or implies that this is the only/best way. However I have seen that from the evangelical followers, some of whom haven't even done any of the work themselves. Much like the groupies discussed on various other threads, most recently the "big horse guru", and how off putting they can be. I do think there is a fair bit of that with BTTM. Other methods and approaches are shut down and rubbished in comparison to BTTM and that causes ill feeling and resentment against the method/Celeste when really neither are at fault. I personally am fed up seeing BTTM being promoted by followers over hands on treatments from [good] bodyworkers/physios/chiros/hoof care professionals. Even Celeste doesn't promote that POV. Similarly there have been posts on here specifically poo-pooing certain aspects of groundwork and poles with BTTM touted as the answer. Ironically I've seen footage of Celeste using poles and speaking of their positives. Obviously the disclaimer is that everything should be used correctly but that goes without saying. Similarly there is questioning of body workers and their ilk who aren't BTTM linked and how "good" they really are while simultaneously being ok with any Joe Bloggs doing BTTM and some strange confidence that they will absolutely be doing it correctly.

I've only read the first 100 or so post on COTH but I do agree with the majority questioning the "cure all" promoted, again I've never seen this directly from Celeste, of BTTM. I can only guess that since the thread is over 600 posts long and that some of the initial supportive posts are edited with [paraphrasing] "Don't like this comment because I've had my eyes opened and changed my POV" that things kick off at some point further into the thread.

The COTH thread reminded me of names that I haven't heard in years like Dr Hilary Clayton. She was the go to book and person to reference but seems to have fallen out of favour* in recent years. Her approach was scientific and it did make for some hard going and dry reading. Much like things we took for granted "back in the day" seems to have been replaced in modern life with Tik Tok videos I do wonder if the hard graft of learning is being replaced by a want for "quick and easy" videos and simple (simple doesn't equate easy) movements to practice. *this may be because of my circles rather than a wider occurrence.

From what I can glean what BTTM is advocating is reinventing the wheel. Correct posture work has always been a "thing" along with knowledge about the thoracic sling. I'm no great shakes at anything but posture work and TS were both covered during McTimoney-Corely training in 2008 and Equinology Bodywork in 2009. I've read a great many things by various scientists, researchers, trainers and other bodyworkers (& their ilk). Partly because those subjects have been in books and magazines that I read and partly because I'm interested in that kind of thing so I seek it out. A recent example is that "Big Horse Guru" thread and older examples are some of the Buck threads/posts. It's the absolute basics in western to have a horse relaxed in the correct posture on the ground at a standstill before progressing through the paces, then right back to that tacked up and progress, then back to that with a rider and progress. They don't specifically say "turn the brachiocephalicus off" but they know the softeness that they are looking for.

In a similar vein I had a friend out last weekend who came to an arena hire with me and did some groundwork with Chip. I'm fairly certain that she has never hear of BTTM but she is western and has a very strong leaning towards horsemanship (over competitive western riding/showing/events). In between doing groundwork, again looking for that softness before moving off and any new requests, there was a focus on keeping Chip "with" us while we stood around chatting. The arena is lined with stables so there was lots of sounds and smells as well as the odd curious nose peeking over the wall. He's a tight and tense wee horse anyway so working on relaxation has been constant. It's even harder because his default position is that of a llama! Every time his mind, and then body, wandered he'd get a "bump" on the leadrope (hand closed around it) that brought him back to us. When he was "with" us he was soft through his brachiocephalicus and sternomandibular. The posture of a horse doing groundwork is constantly being evaluated when the work is being done correctly.

Like @CanteringCarrot has said it's great that people are taking more of an interest in anatomy, posture and softness, amongst other factors, and are pursuing that knowledge. It's simultaneously saddening that this is something that is taught. Again, I think that ties into @Ambers Echo post on the "Big Horse Guru" thread highlighting the differences between [good] horsemanship trainers/lessons and "traditional"/BHS trainers/lessons. With "horsemanship" trainers there is an emphasis, and explanation/discussion, about posture and softness that just doesn't seem to be there in more "traditional" training. Equally good horse(wo)men do good horsemanship often without thinking and/or explaining what else is going on. Just like how some eventers/dressage riders are excellent and top of their game but they can't teach because they don't know how or why they do what they do.

In summary no one is forcing anyone to purchase Celeste's programme and from what I have found out about it, without purchasing, it seems to be saying the correct things but that isn't exclusive or new information. Like every other "programme" the exercises/poses have to be done correctly and that is hard to regulate because, well, people. How often are photos or videos posted of "good" when it's anything but, yet that person thinks it is and that's why they've posted it? Just the same as some people touting BTTM as a cure all and the "best" without knowing their level of knowledge and experience let alone actual time served doing the programme themselves on a horse to see first hand rather than some shoddy before & after shots. I do think that there are people doing similar to BTTM in that they are considering posture and doing work to improve it, even subconsciously, already but they haven't packaged it up as a separate "thing to do".

 

[Cragrat]

Firstly, apologies for the random formatting of my posts. There's an ongoing thread in the feedback section about the forum making some posts go wild. My cursor jumps all over the place so that I'm typing in the middle of an existing word, it throws in massive spaces between paragraphs and even if it looks ok when I hit post it has a freak out and ends up as a huge blank post. If I try to edit it the whole forum crashes for me. It's fun... So I've snuck on here on my work laptop to try and make it easier to share my worthless opinions on BTTM.

Secondly, what I really need to do is speak with @Ambers Echo and get her to articulate my thoughts like she did so well on the Big Horse Guru thread! As that's not possible you'll just have to make do with my seemingly endless rambling.

I think that the most important thing to know about horse training, in all it's forms, is that there is nothing new under the sun. Some stuff is packaged up differently, some fall out of favour and some require a membership but there's no reinventing the wheel.

As a self confessed horse geek with a strong interest in anatomy, healthy function and horse welfare the BTTM seemed right up my street and I was motivated to find out more. That was the first stumbling block because I couldn't find an accessible way to find out more info and what I would be getting for my $150 without paying my $150.

On the one hand I completely get that Celeste was just doing her thing, and doing well out of it, with no need to create anything else for anyone else. She made the FB page and the $150 granted access to it to do with as you please. She hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, put the hard sell on anyone and of course no one is obligated to buy anything that they don't want to. So you pays your money, you take your chance.

I personally feel that there is some sort of moral obligation to provide "something" for the money. Even if that something is just an introduction to the ethos of the BTTM work and that the money simply grants access to further information. I know that I asked a lot of questions because I didn't know what she was providing other than talk of Pillar work and some 3hr video.

With all that in mind I don't understand why she is receiving abuse and threats. If what she is selling isn't for you, don't buy it. I don't understand the mentality of those that behave in that manner.

As I said I've never seen or read anything but Celeste that sells herself or implies that this is the only/best way. However I have seen that from the evangelical followers, some of whom haven't even done any of the work themselves. Much like the groupies discussed on various other threads, most recently the "big horse guru", and how off putting they can be. I do think there is a fair bit of that with BTTM. Other methods and approaches are shut down and rubbished in comparison to BTTM and that causes ill feeling and resentment against the method/Celeste when really neither are at fault. I personally am fed up seeing BTTM being promoted by followers over hands on treatments from [good] bodyworkers/physios/chiros/hoof care professionals. Even Celeste doesn't promote that POV. Similarly there have been posts on here specifically poo-pooing certain aspects of groundwork and poles with BTTM touted as the answer. Ironically I've seen footage of Celeste using poles and speaking of their positives. Obviously the disclaimer is that everything should be used correctly but that goes without saying. Similarly there is questioning of body workers and their ilk who aren't BTTM linked and how "good" they really are while simultaneously being ok with any Joe Bloggs doing BTTM and some strange confidence that they will absolutely be doing it correctly.

I've only read the first 100 or so post on COTH but I do agree with the majority questioning the "cure all" promoted, again I've never seen this directly from Celeste, of BTTM. I can only guess that since the thread is over 600 posts long and that some of the initial supportive posts are edited with [paraphrasing] "Don't like this comment because I've had my eyes opened and changed my POV" that things kick off at some point further into the thread.

The COTH thread reminded me of names that I haven't heard in years like Dr Hilary Clayton. She was the go to book and person to reference but seems to have fallen out of favour* in recent years. Her approach was scientific and it did make for some hard going and dry reading. Much like things we took for granted "back in the day" seems to have been replaced in modern life with Tik Tok videos I do wonder if the hard graft of learning is being replaced by a want for "quick and easy" videos and simple (simple doesn't equate easy) movements to practice. *this may be because of my circles rather than a wider occurrence.

From what I can glean what BTTM is advocating is reinventing the wheel. Correct posture work has always been a "thing" along with knowledge about the thoracic sling. I'm no great shakes at anything but posture work and TS were both covered during McTimoney-Corely training in 2008 and Equinology Bodywork in 2009. I've read a great many things by various scientists, researchers, trainers and other bodyworkers (& their ilk). Partly because those subjects have been in books and magazines that I read and partly because I'm interested in that kind of thing so I seek it out. A recent example is that "Big Horse Guru" thread and older examples are some of the Buck threads/posts. It's the absolute basics in western to have a horse relaxed in the correct posture on the ground at a standstill before progressing through the paces, then right back to that tacked up and progress, then back to that with a rider and progress. They don't specifically say "turn the brachiocephalicus off" but they know the softeness that they are looking for.

In a similar vein I had a friend out last weekend who came to an arena hire with me and did some groundwork with Chip. I'm fairly certain that she has never hear of BTTM but she is western and has a very strong leaning towards horsemanship (over competitive western riding/showing/events). In between doing groundwork, again looking for that softness before moving off and any new requests, there was a focus on keeping Chip "with" us while we stood around chatting. The arena is lined with stables so there was lots of sounds and smells as well as the odd curious nose peeking over the wall. He's a tight and tense wee horse anyway so working on relaxation has been constant. It's even harder because his default position is that of a llama! Every time his mind, and then body, wandered he'd get a "bump" on the leadrope (hand closed around it) that brought him back to us. When he was "with" us he was soft through his brachiocephalicus and sternomandibular. The posture of a horse doing groundwork is constantly being evaluated when the work is being done correctly.

Like @CanteringCarrot has said it's great that people are taking more of an interest in anatomy, posture and softness, amongst other factors, and are pursuing that knowledge. It's simultaneously saddening that this is something that is taught. Again, I think that ties into @Ambers Echo post on the "Big Horse Guru" thread highlighting the differences between [good] horsemanship trainers/lessons and "traditional"/BHS trainers/lessons. With "horsemanship" trainers there is an emphasis, and explanation/discussion, about posture and softness that just doesn't seem to be there in more "traditional" training. Equally good horse(wo)men do good horsemanship often without thinking and/or explaining what else is going on. Just like how some eventers/dressage riders are excellent and top of their game but they can't teach because they don't know how or why they do what they do.

In summary no one is forcing anyone to purchase Celeste's programme and from what I have found out about it, without purchasing, it seems to be saying the correct things but that isn't exclusive or new information. Like every other "programme" the exercises/poses have to be done correctly and that is hard to regulate because, well, people. How often are photos or videos posted of "good" when it's anything but, yet that person thinks it is and that's why they've posted it? Just the same as some people touting BTTM as a cure all and the "best" without knowing their level of knowledge and experience let alone actual time served doing the programme themselves on a horse to see first hand rather than some shoddy before & after shots. I do think that there are people doing similar to BTTM in that they are considering posture and doing work to improve it, even subconsciously, already but they haven't packaged it up as a separate "thing to do".

Nice summary - well put!

 

[SEL]

Good post @TPO

A vet physio I know had a moan about how Celeste was offering nothing new and she knew all this stuff already. I'm afraid my unsympathetic response was that she should have packaged it up and sold it then because there's obviously a market. No point in moaning about someone else's success.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Yeah, because actual screenshots of interactions and reviews from people who have tried the program but weren't completely enamored by it must be gossip and speculation. As you said though, you only want to hear from people who have used the techniques and benefited from them (well, their horses, anyway). So you only want to hear the good?


Look, I think a lot of people know F all when it comes to so many aspects of the horse. This includes many of the things that Celeste touches on. I think that the programme is attractive because it's accessible to soo many, and her marketing isn't too shabby either. Some of the content is also alright.

It's just that in the USA and on social media anyone can say they are x, y, and z. This is a huge thing in the horse world. There are so many trends, fads, and self proclaimed experts out there, and a lot of people just jumping on bandwagons. Then when you ask questions, they get defensive because they're not even sure if they understand or stand behind what they're doing.

If it helps you and your horse, then great. I also think that it's entirely possible to join a program or work with someone in person, and just take away the pieces that are valuable to you and leave the rest. So many people might be doing that with Celeste too.

However, there are negative things about her and her programme that should not be swept under the rug or chalked up to gossip and speculation. As I said previously, some of us place more value on this than others.

It's entirely possible to work with someone or some entity and have a good experience while someone else had a poor one. Both experiences are valid.

I'm just curious to see how this plays out and what the next thing will be. Maybe I'm just jaded, but this programme involves a lot of basic understanding and common sense about the horses body that can be picked up if you're around them and attentive for long enough. Or if you know how to properly develop a horse. So it just seems like another "thing" and soon we'll move onto the next thing and/or guru. Social medial really perpetuates this.

Sometimes I do have to remember that things that come so naturally to me (or seem so basic) doesn't necessarily come so naturally to others. So that could be why I don't get certain crazes. I'm always willing to learn and do a lot of learning, but I've just become more "picky" re who I give my money to, I guess.

I'm not saying that it's all a load of rubbish on the COTH thread, but it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. I'm sure there is truth to some of it, I also imagine that some of it is s**t stirring.

I absolutely agree that social media perpetuates 'gurus', and I don't think it is healthy or rational to put any human being on a pedestal.

I don't think Celeste's methods are basic understanding or common sense to the average equestrian, as traditionally the 'solution' for problematic movement patterns are to use gadgets like a pessoa or other 'training aids'. I'm sure that there are other equine professionals teaching similar methods to Celeste, her 'brand' has just gained traction for whatever reason.

On the topic of self proclaimed experts...I think that could be a whole other thread. Not just in the equestrian world, but elsewhere too. This is the consequence of living in the age of the 'influencer', where you can apparently give dietary advice even if you are not a dietician, or medical advice even if you are not a doctor.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I'm not saying that it's all a load of rubbish on the COTH thread, but it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. I'm sure there is truth to some of it, I also imagine that some of it is s**t stirring.

I absolutely agree that social media perpetuates 'gurus', and I don't think it is healthy or rational to put any human being on a pedestal.

I don't think Celeste's methods are basic understanding or common sense to the average equestrian, as traditionally the 'solution' for problematic movement patterns are to use gadgets like a pessoa or other 'training aids'. I'm sure that there are other equine professionals teaching similar methods to Celeste, her 'brand' has just gained traction for whatever reason.

On the topic of self proclaimed experts...I think that could be a whole other thread. Not just in the equestrian world, but elsewhere too. This is the consequence of living in the age of the 'influencer', where you can apparently give dietary advice even if you are not a dietician, or medical advice even if you are not a doctor.

Yeah, social media is wild. You can be whatever you want to be and there are many people just lining up to drink Koolaid. It's both bizarre and fastinating, tbh.

I think Celeste just marketed things right. There are other individuals that have her skills, but just aren't "out there" like she is.

As for it being basic or natural thinking, it depends. I guess I take my background for granted. I learned a lot as a young person about this type of stuff and just naturally think or absorb things a certain way.

 

[TPO]

A vet physio I know had a moan about how Celeste was offering nothing new and she knew all this stuff already. I'm afraid my unsympathetic response was that she should have packaged it up and sold it then because there's obviously a market. No point in moaning about someone else's success.

Apologies back on phone...


When I did bodyworker training in 2009 a large part of the course and post work for the qualification was the "painted horse". This was for all th4 different layers of muscles and labelling up the muscle origins etc.

The trainer was implying that a certain "painted horse" trainer had seen their idea and run with it straight to a publisher...

Like has been numerous times by numerous people when it comes to horses there is nothing new under the sun. If someone finds a way to male a living from something fair play to them. Having (or seeing) the idea is thr easy bit, it's a lot of work to make marketable and sellable packages [especially to a group of people who'd drop £200 on matchy over lessons and physio ]

 

[AntiPuck]

I agree that the BTMM work (or any work, really) should ideally be accompanied by bodywork, not used instead of - I was lucky enough to have sessions with a bodyworker who had already used BTMM stuff on her own horse with good results, so had her in-person guidance to accompany the online stuff - that is probably the ideal scenario, as she doesn't stop at BTMM but also incorporates other groundwork in addition.

I will say that Celeste's group isn't advertised as a "course" (as people keep using that word), it's called a "masterclass", and indeed the bulk of the content is delivered in 3 very long recorded webinars - as the name suggests. So yes, don't buy it expecting to get a neat, orderly course - it sounds like one might be in the works. It is perfectly functional in its current state, though, you just need to have a bit of patience and be willing to take the time to go through it properly (and to view it on a laptop, not a phone!).

 

[Caol Ila]

Maybe CanteringCarrot and I were at the same barn in the US. Probably not. There must be more than one like that. But at the place I grew up, horsemanship was the norm, and that included Centred Riding and TTEAM and various other things that were en vogue at the time, focusing on softness, your posture, their posture, connection, communication, etc. I honestly thought it was normal until I left to go to uni and found myself at a barn in Massachusetts which did pretty much none of that. What a weird feeling of culture shock that was. I was really sad my first semester. I missed my CO barn so much, and all the people in MA seemed like they were on another planet.

I graduated, returned to that barn, then moved out here. Yeah, same feeling. All my fellow liveries think I'm on another planet. That experience of feeling out of place or alien is a normal part of horsey life now. Yet there is a little part of me that reads about these "new" methods of horse training and thinks, wait, I've been doing that for years. I thought everyone knew this. When clearly, they don't.

I school my horses every day in lowering their heads and softening and doing some lateral work. Usually while hacking. Well, entirely at the moment because the weather is nice, the park is beautiful, and I am weak-willed. I'm really pleased that I usually don't have to ask Fin to keep his body straight anymore. He just does it. And re: foot wear, his front feet are wearing much more evenly now than they were a year ago.

Today, Hermosa and finally found the 'soft feel' in connection, while walking, and straightness, during the last 10 minutes of our hack. It felt great. She seemed to like the feeling and was stepping along confidently. Okay, it would not have taken Mark Rashid two months to get there, but I do what I can. I had been mostly riding on a loose rein, but she actually seemed to prefer a very light, responsive connection between me and the bridle.

If it's packaged in a way that helps people become more aware of how horses work, how best to work them, then that's great. But I shy away from anyone who claims they have a transformative technique that will change your relationship with your horse, and it's Super Secret until you pay for it. And I’m very doubtful if they are disingenuous about their education and qualifications, to boot.

 

[SEL]

Maybe CanteringCarrot and I were at the same barn in the US. Probably not. There must be more than one like that. But at the place I grew up, horsemanship was the norm, and that included Centred Riding and TTEAM and various other things that were en vogue at the time, focusing on softness, your posture, their posture, connection, communication, etc. I honestly thought it was normal until I left to go to uni and found myself at a barn in Massachusetts which did pretty much none of that. What a weird feeling of culture shock that was. I was really sad my first semester. I missed my CO barn so much, and all the people in MA seemed like they were on another planet.

I graduated, returned to that barn, then moved out here. Yeah, same feeling. All my fellow liveries think I'm on another planet. That experience of feeling out of place or alien is a normal part of horsey life now. Yet there is a little part of me that reads about these "new" methods of horse training and thinks, wait, I've been doing that for years. I thought everyone knew this. When clearly, they don't.

I school my horses every day in lowering their heads and softening and doing some lateral work. Usually while hacking. Well, entirely at the moment because the weather is nice, the park is beautiful, and I am weak-willed. I'm really pleased that I usually don't have to ask Fin to keep his body straight anymore. He just does it. And re: foot wear, his front feet are wearing much more evenly now than they were a year ago.

Today, Hermosa and finally found the 'soft feel' in connection, while walking, and straightness, during the last 10 minutes of our hack. It felt great. She seemed to like the feeling and was stepping along confidently. Okay, it would not have taken Mark Rashid two months to get there, but I do what I can. I had been mostly riding on a loose rein, but she actually seemed to prefer a very light, responsive connection between me and the bridle.

If it's packaged in a way that helps people become more aware of how horses work, how best to work them, then that's great. But I shy away from anyone who claims they have a transformative technique that will change your relationship with your horse, and it's Super Secret until you pay for it. And I’m very doubtful if they are disingenuous about their education and qualifications, to boot.

I've ridden in a lot of places (military child) & I've never come across anywhere that looked at horsemanship bar grooming and other basics. Most of my interest came from having difficult horses and needing to find a different route with them. I remember taking the Appy into the school at our first yard together and loads of people coming to watch "the show". Given I was teaching her to lead nicely it was incredibly dull. I think they had the monty Roberts galloping round idea in their heads.

I'm not sure why Celeste has grown such a following. She comes across well on social media which certainly helps and she had a good reputation in the US before that. I got the impression the explosion of interest caught her by surprise and I honestly can't blame her for milking it!!

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I got tagged in TPO's post so read the thread. (And the one on COTH. I got curious). I know nothing about Celeste but a few thoughts occurred to me as I read.

1) I won't ever sign up to a secret method, mostly hidden behind a paywall. Good horsemanship folk are generally very, very generous with their time and knowledge.Their problem is getting people to listen to it! Of course you need to pay for DVDs, books, on-line programmes but there should (imho) be absolute transparency about the philosophy behind the approach and what you get for your money. Joe Midgley's Good Horsemanship Channel is a good example of getting that balance right, I think.

2) I am a massive fan of bodywork and have been for years. But I am very wary of any one-size-fits-all approach. Also as far as I can tell, there is an inherent contradiction within BTTM: you can harm your horse if you do it 'wrong' plus lots of people are doing these sort of postural exercises 'wrong'. Even - scary drums - vets, physios and body workers!!! And yet also you can do definitely do it right by joining a FB group and masterclass, without anyone assessing your horse or watching you in action. Anything potentially harmful should not be 'sold' online to Joe Public. DIY dentistry anyone?

3) Linked to that is I no longer learn online. I explore ideas online and I play around with those ideas sometimes, but I want eyes on the ground looking at my horse. AND eyes on me looking at how I apply things in practice. Anything skilled needs practice and live feedback, in my view. I remember in Rashid's clinics him having to explain to several punters that 'softeness' does not mean 'never getting firm'. And them refusing to allow him to increase pressure on a horse who was fixed through the neck and leaning on the bit. And getting annoyed with him 'because I thought you want softness'. Similarly, Joe explained how I was messing up one of the BB exercises groundwork when he saw me do it.

4) I instinctively steer clear of anyone attracting an evangelical base. I feel sorry sometimes for people in this position because they may not ask for such cultish devotion. But I also think you can address it openly, and not court it. And I do think some of the BTTM approach (paywall, trademarking, this is the ONE TRUE WAY. Not to mention calling yourself 'The Travelling Horse Witch!) feeds into that. Whereas, Rashid does quite often tell people off for taking his word as 'gospel' when really it is an idea, in one context and at one time. Some ideas stand the test of time, some he changes or ditches. And then gets lectured by his own supporters for not being 'Rashid' enough! Joe Midgley also emphatically rejects any Horse Whisperer label.

5) Re my own use of any new approach or trainer. I am pretty open minded and am willing to explore different avenues. But I do it critically, and I ask a few questions:

- Do I like/understand the underlying princples?
- Are they scientifically valid/evidence based?
- Is is there a clear response from my horse?
- And the cherry on the cake: does that translate into ridden work?

I was dubious about Masterson Method but went with it because I am a Rashid Stan! But Lottie did not like it nor show any benefit from it (using a certified Masterston Method person - see point 3.) My sharer does TTouch and Lottie enjoys it. That's good enough for me as she does not usually like being touched. Whether there are wider benefits, I have no idea. My vet physio is very keen on exercise therapies/maintenance and she gave me a load of polework to do on longreins. (And taught me to do it, then watched me the first time - see point 3) Lottie gained muscle and flexibility in the right places. So I am carrying on with that. Dolly went on a water treadmill and looking at videos of her on it reveal she was head up all the way through dragging herself along. So I feel that was prpbably damaging and I won't go back. Basically, I am all for being open minded, but in the end you need to try things out and see how your horse responds. I am quite wary of 'the horse gets worse before he gets better' warnings unless they can predict in what way and why. (My own physio will say - that neck is going to be really sore for 24-36 hours after what I just did, but then it will be better than before. He is always right). But a vague 'can go worse (in any direction over any period of time) is just a get out of jail free card and I don't buy it.

Using trial and error, the thing that has changed Lottie the most is working with Joe. Her neck muscles are softer than they have ever been, she has improved ROM ins all 4 limbs and she is straighter. A good trainer is worth their weight in gold - but they don't charge that.

My tuppence anyway. Good luck with those trying it x

 

[TPO]

See @Ambers Echo that was what I needed from you

 

[Ample Prosecco]

See @Ambers Echo that was what I needed from you

Your post was perfectly clear without my input!!

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I have just read a but more of that COTH thread. (It is bizarrely compelling.) Someone has screenshotted a recent FB post of hers, and it has utterly ENRAGED me.

I have gone from curious about the method, but put off by the marketing strategy, to being incandescent by the revolting combination of arrogance, mawkishness and cruelty in this post. Not to mention the fact that is makes no sense - the owner is not 'indifferent' - she sought out Celeste's advice at a clinic, then chose another route to resolve her horse's issues. Sadly unsuccessfully. Celeste goes straight into 'worst of the worst' with this gem. No wonder her followers are slavish devotees. Ignore her AND YOUR HORSE MIGHT DIE AND IT WILL BE YOUR FAULT.

"Yesterday a horse was put down because even though the horse was made sound in my clinic in front of the owner, and the owner was given every tool to help her continue on the path to preventing lameness, she chose to continue like she had been prior to the clinic. And now my new friend is dead. Not through evil but indifference".

Wow. Just wow.

 

[Fieldlife]

. No wonder her followers are slavish devotees. Ignore her AND YOUR HORSE MIGHT DIE AND IT WILL BE YOUR FAULT.

I thought your earlier post on this thread very sensible. This one is just inflammatory.

I’ve said repeatedly found the information shared in the BTMM group useful and found the 3 pillars exercises taught to be useful and complementary to other work and training I do.

I’ve not seen anyone discussing their use of BTMM and Pillars method on this thread being slavish about their involvement nor showing any sign of being a “groupie” or being a massive personal devotee.

I’ve said repeatedly found the information shared in the BTMM group useful and found the 3 pillars exercises taught to be useful and complementary to other work and training I do.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I don;t doubt she offers some useful exercises. But regardless, her post is hideous. She could be the best bodyworker on the planet and I'd still run a mile from someone who could publicly call someone out for having their horse PTS, just because they did not follow her programme. Any horse that needs euthanasia is seriously compromised. Whether she made the horse look sound on the day is irrelevant. No credible person would ever claim they can cure a chronically lame horse in a day. Nor that they could prevent recurrence of said lameness. And even if they secretly believed that, you have to have the ego the size of jupiter, with zero empathy or compassion to actually post it. Urghhh.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Thank you for posting that, AE.

What a totally vile individual she showed herself to be. I hope that her groupies reconsider their cult like devotion to her.