Barbaric

Maybe it would make more sense if we saw what preceded the beating
I hope it made sense to the horse, and they didn't a walloping for nothing :(
 
Looking at how close the horses were and the 'ow' yelp in the beginning, I would perhaps guess that the horse kicked out and perhaps caught someone's leg.
Riders reaction regardless of whether that was the causation or not, completely unacceptable.
However, lets remember that this isn't just confined to hunting, this behaviour happens everywhere - we need to combat it in the wider context, banning hunting will just mean these people beat their horses at a showjumping comp instead.
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
Looking at how close the horses were and the 'ow' yelp in the beginning, I would perhaps guess that the horse kicked out and perhaps caught someone's leg.
Riders reaction regardless of whether that was the causation or not, completely unacceptable.
However, lets remember that this isn't just confined to hunting, this behaviour happens everywhere - we need to combat it in the wider context, banning hunting will just mean these people beat their horses at a showjumping comp instead.
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That's what I was thinking as well. Add in the way one of the grey horses behind it had its head up in the air. A couple smacks I can understand, I wouldn't want my horse kicking at anyone or anything, but the rest was just temper.
 
Ah, so sab stands for saboteurs. I've been wondering...

I don't know, it *&^ me off hearing the holier than thou carrying on of the sabs.
 
Nancykitt said:
This used to happen a lot in the area where we used to live.
If it's your land, or if you have permission from the land owner, it's perfectly legal.
'Lamping' was a popular pastime and usually very successful in killing foxes. Foxes are 'called in' by shooters using devices that squeak (ie, imitating the sound of a distressed animal). They are then easier to shoot as they are in closer range. (OH tells me that a child was recently accidentally shot by a lamper so it's definitely not without significant risk).
The situation in the area where we lived was crazy. There were people on the estate who talked constantly about the lovely cuddly foxes and would buy (factory farmed) chicken to feed them in gardens. One year the foxes had a bumper reproductive season, they were so well fed. The lampers then also had a bumper season. Bonkers.
Shooting foxes is often seen as humane but a lot of the time it isn't. I'm told it's not that easy to hit a fox and get an instant kill.
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You've been very misinformed about shooting foxes. They're by far one of the easiest quarry to shoot cleanly as they come into call/squeak so you aren't shooting over long ranges at all. They also freeze/pause to assess the situation so are a stationary target.
 
druid said:
You've been very misinformed about shooting foxes. They're by far one of the easiest quarry to shoot cleanly as they come into call/squeak so you aren't shooting over long ranges at all. They also freeze/pause to assess the situation so are a stationary target.
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Perhaps some of the people who went out with the lampers were pretty poor shots. (Well, I know for a fact that at least one of them was....)
TBF, most of the foxes were shot dead, but it wasn't 100% success rate and not always clean.
There were a few people who didn't go out lamping but shot at the foxes using a shotgun. Obviously, unless you're very close, there's a good chance that the fox won't be killed outright.

Those in favour of hunting with hounds used to tell me that it was more humane than shooting because the fox either got away or was killed very quickly.

I don't have strong feelings about lamping per se but to me it was just crazy that so many people loved to feed the foxes and the lampers then killed them.

I loved hunting with bloodhounds and never went 'live' hunting; like many here I'm disgusted by the terrible (and illegal) antics of some of the hunts.
However, we can't get away from the fact that *some* sabs behave very, very badly.
I'm also irritated by those who describe foxes as cute and cuddly - one of the 'feeders' on the housing estate used to say that she would love to make a pet out of one of the foxes that came into her garden.
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
Looking at how close the horses were and the 'ow' yelp in the beginning, I would perhaps guess that the horse kicked out and perhaps caught someone's leg.
Riders reaction regardless of whether that was the causation or not, completely unacceptable.
However, lets remember that this isn't just confined to hunting, this behaviour happens everywhere - we need to combat it in the wider context, banning hunting will just mean these people beat their horses at a showjumping comp instead.
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I fully agree.

Whatever the sabs’ preferred narrative, I don’t suppose that people who ride to hounds are more or less likely to abuse their horses than horse owning randomers who don't.

Hunting people do like to claim the moral high ground saying that they love their horses and their hounds, which is why footage like this is gold for the antis.

It was a dreadful display of temper and poor horsemanship from that lady rider. One, maybe two sharp cracks behind the girth along with brief loud verbal chastisement immediately after the crime, assuming the horse had indeed kicked out at another horse or rider, would have been reasonable. A horse who will kick is lethal out in company. Then keep clear of the other horses and carry on, or maybe go home after profuse apologies.

But the repeated whallops = loss of temper, and will just have confused and upset the horse even more.

In the hunting field a known kicker should be wearing a red ribbon on its tail, but you would only expect it to kick if someone rammed their own horse up its backside. There is no place at all on the hunting field for a horse that is going to aggressively kick as opposed to defensively kick, red ribbon or no red ribbon. Other horses and people can have their legs broken after sustaining a kick injury.
 
The hunting debate will go round in circles but there are a few things that people should remember.

One is that hunting with hounds in this country is illegal and has been now for many years. The fact that some hunts still use loopholes to try and kid people they are are trail hunting is just stupid. We all know that some hunts are still hunting and even clearly cubbing just like they were pre ban.

Most of the excuses people are using are not valid. Foxes are more of a problem in towns than in the countryside these days. Pest control does not really excuse hunting. The fact that some hunts actively encourage foxes so they have something to chase shows that one up. Bagged foxes have been used by some hunts too. If foxes are such a pest why do they do that?

The hunt in my area at least cause a lot of problems on the roads, they upset farm animals, they trespass, they upset other horses in fields, they churn up grass verges with vehicles parked on the side of the road the list goes on.

The big one in Warwickshire is the very questionable relationship with the Police and the hunt. The secret protocol that was cooked up between the pro hunting Chief constable and the hunt is going to very shortly blow up.{ Strange that she suddenly retired with no notice is it not?} Not to mention the fact that inquiry is being lead by the PCC who is a member of the Countryside alliance!

The Warwickshire hunt is itself up in court next year for illegal hunting, that will be interesting!
They have been somewhat untouchable up to now. I feel that may be changing soon.

How would people feel if, for example there was a gang of shoplifters going round doing what they like because they have a ""Secret protocol""
Fox hunting with hounds is illegal and it is about time that law was enforced fully and the criminals faced the music.

The riders use of the whip, often in full view of sabs is another issue, yes the abuse of horses in all horse sports is in the spotlight but the fact that some riders hunting seem quite happy to beat their horses in full view of sabs should perhaps tell you a lot about the mind set of some people. Do they think they are untouchable too?

Before I am accused of being a sab, I am not, but I am strongly anti hunting. Yes, some sabs may not be perfect and not behave the best at times but neither do the hunt! See the video of a member of the hunt damaging a sabs car!
Protesting is not against the law, fox hunting is.
I think its time that the field riders were made to face charges when illegal hunting goes on. maybe that would make a difference.

I could go on but I wont. I will probably, like a fox be torn apart for my views but I am sorry its what I think.

Horses in sport is already under the spotlight and rightly so. Hunting is not helping the cause if people want to continue to ride and enjoy horses. Its a a whole can of worms but one thing is for sure, whatever your views on hunting riders such as those seen above are really not helping.
 
Nancykitt said:
Perhaps some of the people who went out with the lampers were pretty poor shots. (Well, I know for a fact that at least one of them was....)
TBF, most of the foxes were shot dead, but it wasn't 100% success rate and not always clean.
There were a few people who didn't go out lamping but shot at the foxes using a shotgun. Obviously, unless you're very close, there's a good chance that the fox won't be killed outright.

Those in favour of hunting with hounds used to tell me that it was more humane than shooting because the fox either got away or was killed very quickly.

I don't have strong feelings about lamping per se but to me it was just crazy that so many people loved to feed the foxes and the lampers then killed them.

I loved hunting with bloodhounds and never went 'live' hunting; like many here I'm disgusted by the terrible (and illegal) antics of some of the hunts.
However, we can't get away from the fact that *some* sabs behave very, very badly.
I'm also irritated by those who describe foxes as cute and cuddly - one of the 'feeders' on the housing estate used to say that she would love to make a pet out of one of the foxes that came into her garden.
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Anyone who hasn't practiced enough to be a confident shot shouldn't be pointing a rifle at any animal. That's on them, not on the method of dispatch.
 
Tiddlypom said:
It was a dreadful display of temper and poor horsemanship from that lady rider. One, maybe two sharp cracks behind the girth along with brief loud verbal chastisement immediately after the crime, assuming the horse had indeed kicked out at another horse or rider, would have been reasonable.
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And then keep to the back of the field, which she didn't do, as if beating her horse absolved her of any further responsibility
 
I'm Dun said:
If you slow it down and look at the beginning the horse kicked out at the grey. Doesnt make it right, but it was cleverly cut for maximum effect as usual.
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Riders fault for putting the horse in that position in the first place. Also rider on the greys fault for being too close. Even if a crack with the whip was needed it should have been one crack not eight. Not sure how doing that was in any way nec. A temper tantrum full stop
 
Sandstone1 said:
Riders fault for putting the horse in that position in the first place. Also rider on the greys fault for being too close. Even if a crack with the whip was needed it should have been one crack not eight. Not sure how doing that was in any way nec. A temper tantrum full stop
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hence me saying it doesnt make it right, because, well its not.
 
Awful display of horsemanship. Horse should have had a red ribbon in it's tail and be ridden at the back of the field. The rider of the grey should not have been so close. But the repeated smacks were completely unnecessary.

Re. Sabs. I am no fan of illegal hunting however I also don't have a particular like for sabs. Much of what they accuse hunts of doing they are guilty of them themselves, tresspass, intimidation etc. Let's not pretend all sabs do is "protest".
Monitors are a different story and do usually peacefully monitor and gather evidence of illegal hunts. The issue is many confuse the two.
 
druid said:
Anyone who hasn't practiced enough to be a confident shot shouldn't be pointing a rifle at any animal. That's on them, not on the method of dispatch.
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Couldn't agree more! But the reality is, it happens.
I suppose my main point - not very well put, I admit it - is that I've come across many people who believe that shooting is 100% humane, instant kill, etc etc.
Whether or not it's more humane than a fox being killed by hounds is another matter.

As I said, I'm not anti-shooting when it comes to fox control, but nothing is without its problems. Lamping is certainly a lot more efficient that hunting on horseback with hounds.
I also have little info on exactly how much of a problem foxes are right now, I suppose it depends on many factors.
 
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Sandstone1 said:
The riders use of the whip, often in full view of sabs is another issue, yes the abuse of horses in all horse sports is in the spotlight but the fact that some riders hunting seem quite happy to beat their horses in full view of sabs should perhaps tell you a lot about the mind set of some people. Do they think they are untouchable too?
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I made a similar comment on the original video at the very start of this thread. I can't understand anyone using a whip like this in front of sabs. It's giving them so much ammunition.
The most recent clip - I agree with everyone who says that the rider lost self control. Very poor horsemanship.

We've all probably seen this and worse at riding club shows & that doesn't make any of it acceptable - but we all know that the spotlight is on hunting and sabs are constantly filming.

I have to say that I've seen some dreadful behaviour out on hunts. Excessive whipping, punching, kicking (from the ground) - awful.
I once went out with a hunt that was ultra-fussy about turnout and hunt staff would challenge riders - very bluntly - about things like having a coloured stock instead of white, etc.
However, none of them every challenged the terrible horsemanship that was on display - or even (sorry to bring up the rider weight issue again) very obvious cases of extremely overweight riders on small horses/cobs that were much too small for them.
It's easy to see why the antis feel that some hunts have got their priorities wrong.
 
Nancykitt said:
I made a similar comment on the original video at the very start of this thread. I can't understand anyone using a whip like this in front of sabs. It's giving them so much ammunition.
The most recent clip - I agree with everyone who says that the rider lost self control. Very poor horsemanship.

We've all probably seen this and worse at riding club shows & that doesn't make any of it acceptable - but we all know that the spotlight is on hunting and sabs are constantly filming.

I have to say that I've seen some dreadful behaviour out on hunts. Excessive whipping, punching, kicking (from the ground) - awful.
I once went out with a hunt that was ultra-fussy about turnout and hunt staff would challenge riders - very bluntly - about things like having a coloured stock instead of white, etc.
However, none of them every challenged the terrible horsemanship that was on display - or even (sorry to bring up the rider weight issue again) very obvious cases of extremely overweight riders on small horses/cobs that were much too small for them.
It's easy to see why the antis feel that some hunts have got their priorities wrong.
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I must admit you do see a lot of bad behaviour out hunting; I get that it can be stressful out hedge hopping (not sure stressful is the right term but can;' think of what it is I actually mean!) but some of my local PC hunt take it as an opportunity to whack their horses hard over hedges with a crop. Doubt they'd do it jumping 'normally'. Who knows?
 
cauda equina said:
Maybe it would make more sense if we saw what preceded the beating
I hope it made sense to the horse, and they didn't a walloping for nothing :(
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No horse needs a walloping ever, period. It makes no difference what happened prior, this is totally unacceptable behaviour and that man has no place near horses. Of course it wont make sense to the horse. It was getting hit for still walking forward but finding something scary, imagine if we smacked our kids every time they were worried about something... dont think that would make sense to them!
 
poiuytrewq said:
The dog wouldn't make the kill though would it? Or would it?!
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Yes lurchers are lamped on rabbits and fox amongst othes things, they do kill, it's quite incredible to see experienced lurchers lamp rabbits, they learn to run down the side of the lamp beam rather than cross it as soon as the beam is broken the rabbits run.
 
twiggy2 said:
Yes lurchers are lamped on rabbits and fox amongst othes things, they do kill, it's quite incredible to see experienced lurchers lamp rabbits, they learn to run down the side of the lamp beam rather than cross it as soon as the beam is broken the rabbits run.
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I don't think I'd want to see! I actually thought lamping was just catching rabbits in lamp light to shoot.
 
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