Barefoot, bitless and ''natural'' vs shod, bitted and ''traditional'' - your views?

[lme]

We’re probably seen as an odd mix of drippy hippy and high tech but our horses are managed in a way that suits them.

 

[Leafcutter]

@Caol Ila I saw Monty Roberts give a demonstration, might have been the late 80s (?), it was his first UK tour before he was very well known. He just turned up at an agricultural show, set up a round pen & asked for a volunteer with a problem horse. My impression at the time was he was a salesman, without very much to sell. He barely looked at the poor horse, just played to the audience. Maybe he was having a bad day but it left me suspicious of 'experts' that have one revolutionary new trick, or special piece of equipment to sell that will transform everything.

Same here, saw Monty a bit later on, thought he was useless. Kept harping on about how he’d met the queen, and his books and products etc. Thought he was very average in his handling of the horses, he spent some time winding up a lovely grey with his bags on a stick, and then expected us to be impressed as he calmed it down again!

 

[Glitter's fun]

Same here, saw Monty a bit later on, thought he was useless. Kept harping on about how he’d met the queen, and his books and products etc. Thought he was very average in his handling of the horses, he spent some time winding up a lovely grey with his bags on a stick, and then expected us to be impressed as he calmed it down again!

The day I watched him an audience member brought a very nervy mare to him. I felt it was unkind to her. She looked very stressed to be suddenly with a stranger in the middle of a crowd of people. I forget the specific problem, he just started "joining up" then said he would go away & work with her somewhere quiet & come back.
A time was mentioned.
Guessing it went badly. I went back but there was just an empty round pen & a bored assistant selling his books.
I didn't buy one.

 

[Maxidoodle]

Mine are all barefoot as it works for them, I use hoof boots if needed, appreciate that a lot of horses couldn’t go barefoot for various reasons. I trim my own, I love liberty, I don’t lead too and from the field, everyone comes in orderly and goes mainly in the right stables, I don’t like the term “natural horsemanship”, to me it’s just “good horsemanship” and my influencing factors are in the best interest of the horses, I ride western but don’t subscribe to the unnatural peanut roller training, my influencing comes from the old time western trainers like ray hunt, Tom dorrance etc, I do lots of groundwork and liberty. I was brought up with just the BHS and pony club for reference and I do find it frustrating when people are stuck in the “well, that’s how we’ve always done it” but I don’t preach, if someone asks to know more about what I do and help, I always do. Absolutely don’t have anything to do with Monty Roberts or parelli, went to a Monty Robert demo some years ago, wasn’t impressed and somehow ended up in a queue to meet him and have my photo taken with him , I thought hey ho but he took my hand to shake it and looked right at me and it was the first time in my life I have ever felt genuine huge unease being given out by someone, I couldn’t get away from him fast enough. I mentioned it to a friend (male) recently and I thought I’d shocked him from his facial expression and then he admitted he met him and had the exact same unexplained feeling about him . The Parelli duo I never subscribed to their methods and then watching their disgraceful “training” videos made me never want to hear about the pair again.

 

[Caol Ila]

Another whatever works for each individual. At lot of things are in your face these days, Nobody should be forcing anyone to do anything, it’s horse’s for courses.

Times are changing though as a lot of people are wanting to try the benefits of no shoes, bitless, etc

I’m at a yard where it’s very much old school, nearly every horse has a full set of shoes even though they get ridden once/twice per week in the arena. YO is very much gadgets and more gadgets. That’ll never change.

We have a few new liveries that are barefoot and treeless saddle, etc but they are really struggling with the yard as it’s very much chalk and cheese.

As for my own, my oldie has just gone barefoot, i’m looking forward to seeing the results. If it doesn’t work then he can go back to two front shoes. He’ll go nicely bitless in the arena but if I wish to live, I need a snaffle bit out hacking. We have a treed saddle. I don’t use gadgets. Youngster is obviously shoe less and I intend to keep him that way. Again if he needs then I’ll shoe him. He has been bitted and I would expect him to accept a snaffle.

I've gotten some "WTF is that" looks from her when she's done lessons at our place, and I've floated past in the bosal.

 

[Caol Ila]

Same here, saw Monty a bit later on, thought he was useless. Kept harping on about how he’d met the queen, and his books and products etc. Thought he was very average in his handling of the horses, he spent some time winding up a lovely grey with his bags on a stick, and then expected us to be impressed as he calmed it down again!

It's a shame, because the bag/flag can actually be a useful training tool but easily misused. The thing is you first teach it to not be afraid of the flag. Then you use it as a tool to teach it about your energy and intent. You can wave the flag in a meaningless way, and the horse knows to ignore it, v. you waving it with intent, and the horse knows to move.

 

[littleshetland]

Having spent sometime with a Parelli devotee and watch her turn her well adjusted, happy little mare into a confused, frightened and borderline dangerous little mare.....I think I'll stick with traditional methods with an extra dash of kindness, patience and a view to keeping everything easy for the horse to understand.

 

[splashgirl45]

Pirelli methods are awful …if someone said their horse was Pirelli trained I wouldn’t even go and view

 

[poiuytrewq]

I have purchased a Miklem multi bridle so will be trying a bit of bitless, when the weather is better
I have no intentions of hopping on in this wind with no bit and disappearing off into the rain clouds (I'd say sunset but that needs sun)

Maybe i'll be a convert, It depends entirely on my horses reaction

I very much believe not all horses can be comfortable barefoot and it irks me a little when people say its just diet etc. TB has been on a very correct diet for two years but was still crippled with very thin soles when i had him home. (fine in a soft field but not here where its harder and stonier)

 

[SEL]

I have long since given up telling my ponies what they can and can't eat. We have forgotten most of what mankind ever knew about herbal medicine but they haven't.
I know (some of) the medicinal properties of some of the things they eat (artemisia, thistles heads, willow, meadowsweet), but I have yet to work out why they are so keen on a bit of ivy in the spring.

When my Ardennes was alive he was an expert browser and I would watch what he took and then research it.

For someone with a very big nose he could delicately remove the tiny baby ivy leaves from the wall and he would do it every spring. I read somewhere that it was a natural wormer so I assume that was what he wanted. With no manners he once towed me to a hedge where there was a huge long trail of bindweed and proceeded to munch it down happily. That's supposed to be poisonous but he was intent on that over the grass.

My friend kept trying to feed him bananas but apparently only UK plants acceptable. She was over the moon once that the banana had vanished and he therefore must have eaten it - and then I went to pick out his hooves and found the hidden evidence

 

[suestowford]

I don't like the idea of sticking to one method. Surely it's better to be open to all possibilities, rather than narrowing your options?
I had terrible trouble with bitting once, and so I did an experiment. I collected together a selection of bridles, bits, headcollars, a hackamore, bitless bridle, and I rode the same pattern in each, with a friend to watch from the ground. The one the pony went best in, was the one I stuck with. His preferred option for headwear turned out to be a simple bridle with no noseband, and a single jointed rubber covered snaffle, with loose rings. It was a very interesting experiment as he was never afraid to tell me if he didn't like something

 

[Orangehorse]

Very often it is how things are interpreted. If you read the Pony Club Manual of Horsemanship, or any instructional book you will find that the basics are the same.

As for Monty Roberts, I think we underestimate how different to mainstream he was in the USA certainly when he was younger - not unique I know and he was out to make a living - but in some places domination was all and Monty presented an alternative. An american instructor who used to buy up and reschool horses from sales said she had witnessed horses being beaten to the ground with chains when they "misbehaved" which I sincerely hope wasn't ever done in Britain.

I have also ridden Parelli trained horses in the USA and they were all very nice to ride. The stables I was at used to take part in the Mustang challenge when they took a wild Mustang and after a suitable length of time took them all back for a competition to see which was the best trained.

I think we can learn from all sorts of different sources. If there is something we don't like or mistrust then leave it alone.

 

[holeymoley]

I've gotten some "WTF is that" looks from her when she's done lessons at our place, and I've floated past in the bosal.

I can imagine.

Sometimes I think she sees people as being destitute or something when their horse’s don’t have shoes. The gadgets appal me, I have to turn away. I think certain gadgets can have an effect on things when used correctly but they shouldn’t still be required 6months to a year down the line. I hacked out with someone a while ago who had some rope thing on from the horse’s head down one side to the girth- couldn’t work it out but that was another story. Anyway, I think I put my neb in it as I said ‘What is that actually doing?!’ At the same time as she was trying to open a gate on board and it got caught in it…!

 

[Bellalily]

I’ve ridden mine bitless since he was 4. He had such an extravagant jump when he was young I was worried I’d catch him with his bit, so started using a head collar. Always been natural and no shoes.
Our pony went bitless after using a Dutch gag and flash and being so strong, never had issues with him once we’d taken the bit out. He’s been without shoes since 2005. Both had a busy competitive life including endurance.
It worries me that despite all the posts and articles about these wonderful creatures that we are so privileged to train and ride, there are still so many people that use painful and restricting gadgets and still shoe horses.

 

[Bellalily]

The natural no shoes peeps care passionately and are just trying to encourage other people to go down this road. I have learned so so much about both my boys’ health since going without shoes and it saddens me when people give up because their horse isn’t doing well.
A horse that is lame without shoes is just lame. Popping a metal plaster on it doesn’t solve the problem and in many cases worsens the issue which will become apparent further down the line.
Yes I am proud both mine cope admirably whatever the surface and are easy to ride with no gadgets or bit. I wish more people would try it.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

The natural no shoes peeps care passionately and are just trying to encourage other people to go down this road. I have learned so so much about both my boys’ health since going without shoes and it saddens me when people give up because their horse isn’t doing well.
A horse that is lame without shoes is just lame. Popping a metal plaster on it doesn’t solve the problem and in many cases worsens the issue which will become apparent further down the line.
Yes I am proud both mine cope admirably whatever the surface and are easy to ride with no gadgets or bit. I wish more people would try it.

Please, most folk above on the thread haven't been demeaning about others choices, but have put down what works for their horses past and present.
Not everyone is willing to 'pop a metal plaster on' (what an unkind expression) but some need to. Try to be a little more open to others views without demeaning or belittling them. Thank you.

 

[teddy_]

The natural no shoes peeps care passionately and are just trying to encourage other people to go down this road. I have learned so so much about both my boys’ health since going without shoes and it saddens me when people give up because their horse isn’t doing well.
A horse that is lame without shoes is just lame. Popping a metal plaster on it doesn’t solve the problem and in many cases worsens the issue which will become apparent further down the line.
Yes I am proud both mine cope admirably whatever the surface and are easy to ride with no gadgets or bit. I wish more people would try it.

I’m sorry, but that is a load of cr*pola.

A horse is not inherently lame because it requires shoes to work comfortably.

 

[Bellalily]

Please, most folk above on the thread haven't been demeaning about others choices, but have put down what works for their horses past and present.
Not everyone is willing to 'pop a metal plaster on' (what an unkind expression) but some need to. Try to be a little more open to others views without demeaning or belittling them. Thank you.

Then maybe it works both ways and those that make other choices should be more open and accepting of an alternative option, which works. It’s a two way discussion and yes those of us that choose no shoes as the healthy option should not be belittled either. I’m happy to pop up some links to various research papers that explain why the no shoes option is so much better for every horse.

 

[Bellalily]

I’m sorry, but that is a load of cr*pola.

A horse is not inherently lame because it requires shoes to work comfortably.

This is exactly the mindset that needs to change. You have put up the perfect example. Thank you.

 

[teddy_]

This is exactly the mindset that needs to change. You have put up the perfect example. Thank you.

No, I have not.

If you read the whole discussion post, you will see that I have stated I am all for people using alternative methods for their own horse - provided this is not to the detriment of that horse.

This is not the first thread where you have spouted misinformed, binary ‘advice’.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Then maybe it works both ways and those that make other choices should be more open and accepting of an alternative option, which works. It’s a two way discussion and yes those of us that choose no shoes as the healthy option should not be belittled either. I’m happy to pop up some links to various research papers that explain why the no shoes option is so much better for every horse.

Again, it appears (according to you) that shoes should not be used. Ever. On anything.
I've had some unshod and others shod, depending on what works best for the working animal as an individual.
Open your mind to the fact that there are many different approaches, different ways of getting a good result, that what YOU do may not work for others, thank you.

 

[Timelyattraction]

This is exactly the mindset that needs to change. You have put up the perfect example. Thank you.

I was also wondering how long it was till you piped up and said that nothing should have a metal bit in its mouth or shoes on, can see from other threads how narrow minded you are on shoes and bits. Not all horses are comfortable without shoes and not all horses can be ridden bitless

 

[ycbm]

Then maybe it works both ways and those that make other choices should be more open and accepting of an alternative option, which works. It’s a two way discussion and yes those of us that choose no shoes as the healthy option should not be belittled either. I’m happy to pop up some links to various research papers that explain why the no shoes option is so much better for every horse.

It is NOT better for EVERY horse, and still less is it better for every horse/owner combination.

I am as pro barefoot a person as you will find but there are horses which cannot cope without shoes.

It's many years since anyone on this forum was belittled for choosing barefoot.

Your zealotry does barefoot no favours whatsoever.
.

 

[Bellalily]

Again, it appears (according to you) that shoes should not be used. Ever. On anything.
I've had some unshod and others shod, depending on what works best for the working animal as an individual.
Open your mind to the fact that there are many different approaches, different ways of getting a good result, that what YOU do may not work for others, thank you.

Er, that’s because they aren’t needed, ever. Simples.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Er, that’s because they aren’t needed, ever. Simples.

I prefer to have a open discussion, not to be shut down by someone who is clearly of the opinion that their choice is the only choice and appears happy to derail what is a very interesting thread till 'my way, nothing else' popped up.
*plonk*

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I don’t think there are 2 separate camps any more it’s more of a mishmash of a tool bag that people select what they want from and leave what they don’t.

This.

I do think there are clear differences in the 2 broad approaches (misnamned as trad vs nh as trad is not 'traditional' and nh is not natural). Those differences to me do not have anything at all to do with what kit you use but the 'nh' group are more likely to be bitless just because they often come from Western and use bosals or what have you.

I think increasing numbers of people are now embracing elements of both and seeing the ways in which 'nh style' foundation training helps all disciplines. Joe Midgley and Sophie Wells are a couple now -he does groundwork with her horses, and he now says they both discovered there was a lot more common grond than either had expected. I am looking forward to their combined clinic in May - groundwork for dressage.

 

[ycbm]

Er, that’s because they aren’t needed, ever. Simples.

But you said.

It’s a two way discussion

You could fool me.

You're also wrong and being wilfully ignorant.
.

 

[Bellalily]

It is NOT better for EVERY horse, and still less is it better for every horse/owner combination.

I am as pro barefoot a person as you will find but there are horses which cannot cope without shoes.

Your zealotry does barefoot no favours whatsoever.

Then you aren’t pro no shoes. Simples.
If their feet aren’t up to the job without shoes, putting shoes on is not the answer, healing the foot is the correct answer. And yes I will keep on until my dying breath, because shoes are unnecessary.
It’s so sad that people proclaim to be “pro barefoot” yet also advocate shoes. Bit of a contradiction there.
I’ve heard all the lies about trimmers being trained in a weekend, how they lame horses, etc etc, from farriers! They must feel so threatened. Yet trimmers don’t diss a decent farrier. It speaks volumes! Anyway, I’m for the welfare of a horse and ensuring he is fit for the job. It’s shocking how many of you still can’t see it. I’m betting it’s the same ones that will never ride bitless either. I’m done.

 

[ycbm]

Then you aren’t pro no shoes. Simples.

Oh but I really am. I've been a fantastic ambassador for barefoot, though I say it myself. And I can recognise a mile off the damage you do to the barefoot movement in insisting that shoes are never necessary.

I would list for you when shoes are necessary but I would be wasting my time and all the reasonable people on the forum (pretty much everyone but you) don't need it.
.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Same horse, different day.





No one needs to be one or the other.