Barefoot, bitless and ''natural'' vs shod, bitted and ''traditional'' - your views?

[blitznbobs]

Then you aren’t pro no shoes. Simples.
If their feet aren’t up to the job without shoes, putting shoes on is not the answer, healing the foot is the correct answer. And yes I will keep on until my dying breath, because shoes are unnecessary.
It’s so sad that people proclaim to be “pro barefoot” yet also advocate shoes. Bit of a contradiction there.
I’ve heard all the lies about trimmers being trained in a weekend, how they lame horses, etc etc, from farriers! They must feel so threatened. Yet trimmers don’t diss a decent farrier. It speaks volumes! Anyway, I’m for the welfare of a horse and ensuring he is fit for the job. It’s shocking how many of you still can’t see it. I’m betting it’s the same ones that will never ride bitless either. I’m done.

So your take is that if you have a ‘lame’ horse that is comfortable in shoes but not comfortable in bare feet despite correct diet / trimming etc because perhaps it has a conformational issue it should keep it uncomfortable because it is the ‘right’ thing to do … ??

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Adopts pitying tone…. B&B the horse is only pretending to be comfortable in shoes. It’s actually more lame really. Despite the absence of -er - lameness. No shoes = better. Shoes = barbaric acts of abuse.Regardless of the horses responses. Simples really.

 

[splashgirl45]

Er, that’s because they aren’t needed, ever. Simples.

What rubbish !!! If you want to have horses in a natural way then don’t ride them . Don’t you think that carrying the extra weight of a human makes a difference to how the horses feet cope? Agree horses should be able to go without shoes if they are not ridden especially if they are not inbred like so many are these days …

 

[Spiritedly]

I'm another who believes in doing what suits the horse.

My mare is barefoot, bitless and I often ride her bareback. She hates bits and chomps and throws her head about when she has one in. She has health issues so doesn't do conventional groundwork now she just follows me round the school and over/round some poles etc occasionally and we mainly hack.

My gelding is bitted, shod and you couldn't get me on him bareback if you paid me! His groundwork is a mix of what you call traditional, liberty, in hand and long line work.

The pony is barefoot and bitted. I don't ride him any more but his loaner will often do bareback work with him and he does the same mix of groundwork as my gelding.

The main issue I've found with those who class themselves as using 'natural horsemanship' is that they tend to believe in a 'one size fits all' method of doing things...all horses can bitless, all horses can go barefoot etc...rather than acknowledging that all horses are individual,and just like with people, not all like or are able to cope with the same methods.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

The turn the thread has taken is quite depressing. Up till then it was quite constructive. But this is a throwback to the bad old days in which one group would say 'load of old bollocks,' with another insisting NH is the Way of the Enlightened Ones. And it was so tedious being stuck in the middle of that, trying to use horsemanship approaches myself, while avoiding the zealots. Recent years have seen so many more people adopt a blended approach, mixing and matching traditions, and recognising how much more we can all learn by expanding the sources of knowlege we use. Which has been really interesting.

Plus an over focus on the tools of the trade not the hands and hearts that use them. A Dually head collar is anything but kind as it does not release. And Parelli rope halters have a great big clip under the chin for a reason..... Most of my horses have been barefoot. But not all. Lottie was barefoot at her old yard, but could not cope with the very high mileage on very rocky ground she does, without shoes. Jenny has a foot conformation fault. I read a bunch of 'all horses can go barefoot' books and tried to get her to grow the shape hoof she needed to balance the foot - as the books and my trimmer assured me she would - against the advice of my vet and farrier. But a year on, she was no better. She had apparently not read those books so she went into remedial shoes and 5 years on is still perfectly fine in them. In retrospect I let ideology get in the way of good horse management for far too long.

I remember a Mark Rashid clinic being derailed by a barefoot/bitless stan who was not interested in asking him about the work he was doing with the horses in the clinic, but just banged on about why wasnt he barefoot and bitless, and ignored his perfectly reasonable answers, until exasperated he finally said 'how about you ask me why I do the things I do, not why I don't do the things I don't do'. Which finally shut her up.

 

[splashgirl45]

Agree AE, why can’t we look at each horse as an individual. There are some shoes that I can wear comfortably and some that other people have recommended cripple me and I end up lame, it’s the same with horses, not all can cope with shoes and not all can cope without… same as some could eat grass non stop and never get lami and others can barely eat any . We need to look at the individual animal and do our best for them

 

[SEL]

After trawling 3 acres of muddy field yesterday looking for a shoe I would honestly love to think my littlest cob could go barefoot. But no diet or exercise regime is going to change those wonky bones in her feet. My farrier trimmed her 5yo daughter a while back and told me she'd inherited her mother's feet so I guess genetic after all.

Sure I could take them off but she wouldn't be happy and the change in her whole behaviour with support on her hinds was marked.

(Side note - baby was a BOGOF. Don't breed from mares with dodgy feet!!)

 

[suestowford]

The only belittling I see on this thread is from the barefoot zealot.

I dare say I shall be accused of masking lameness in my ponies but my credentials are sound in this case as I have no shod ponies here. All with excellent feet, and an excellent farrier too (who was the one who encouraged me to try no shoes, 20+ years ago).

 

[dorsetladette]

I'm another who believes in doing what suits the horse.

I prefer my horses barefoot from a management point of view. But I will only use a farrier work with my horses feet. I've tried a podiatrist - I didn't like the 'my way or the highway' attitude which was preached almost like a cult - one of my horses also went very lame as he was trimmed way to short and he was walking on his soles. (This horse didn't cope well without shoes after his experience.) but I've had horses who have been kept shod for various reasons. Currently three are all unshod, but I think the youngest will need shoes as he starts more hacking under saddle next year - feet bruise easily with all his antics in the field.

I grew up in the 80 and 90's where you rode a certain way on quarter panel saddle and everyone had a snaffle and a cavasson bridle unless you were an adult and you had a pelham or double bridle. I remember when monty roberts was first spoken about on our yard and his book being passed around the brew room - he was either thought of as super hero or a weirdo in a stetson.

I own both treed and treeless saddles and happily ridden in both. I'm not a fan of western saddles or the bareback saddle type saddles - its my opinion/preference (I have tried a couple).

I've ridden in different types of bitless bridles and in various types of bitted bridles. My main sphere and interest is showing which requires a plain bitted cavasson bridle, this is my preference.

I use an eclectic mix of different methods for ground work, some of which friends laugh at me for, but it works for me and I find my horses respond well to my 'odd' way of working.

My horses are happy and healthy and enjoy my company and the things we do together - I think these things are more important than which 'camp' you sit in.


FYI - I learnt a new word today! Zealot!

 

[Cortez]

Er, that’s because they aren’t needed, ever. Simples.

Why do you think shoes were invented in the first place?

 

[maya2008]

In an attempt to contribute to popping the discussion back on track…

BIT vs bitless:
- I have a pony with trauma relating (as far as we can figure out), to a snake related incident when she was wild on the moors. She panics beyond belief at anything looking mildly like an adder, but also ropes, reins, anything long and thin are a massive issue. I wanted to back her bitless, for many sensible reasons. She was amenable to trying. But in the end, it was a dud. The pull of the rein on the noseband with a rider on board felt (to her, with her past) like a snake grabbing hold of her nose and she just panicked. After a few attempts to try different things to relieve that panic, we concluded it was a no go and bitted her. Bitted, she’s fine. Any change of reins has to be managed carefully, but once she’s used to them on her, she doesn’t panic when they pull on the bit. So despite her and us being keen on bitless, it’s just not a possibility for her at this time. Maybe in the future. Maybe never. Her happiness comes first.
- My NF was bred on a farm and has no issues. She can go bitless but takes the mickey when it comes to grass if there is no bit. She does tolerate a loping hackamore quite well though, she doesn’t pull for grass in it and it makes her lighter in the hand. So sometimes I use that, sometimes I use a bit. I need to change the reins on the loping hackamore because she’s 13hh and they get tangled in her legs if I am one handed, but otherwise it’s good.
- My old jumping pony had the most weirdly shaped mouth ever. Bits, of every kind, were uncomfortable. So dressage was out because you could either be banned for incorrect tack or have a tense, tail swishing pony. We jumped, happily, in a Dr Cook. The kids rode her in a flower hackamore. Worked for her.
- My children ride with bits because they are relatively small and weak, riding green ponies and I sometimes need to be able to give them extra leverage. For a quick hack down the road and back though, a headcollar will do. It’s mostly grass that causes the issue!
- I regularly rode my TB bridleless in an enclosed space (arena/field). She was people focused, not overly bothered about grass and obedient. It was fun. Will I do the same with all of them? No. Different personalities and drives. Current feral project is probably the one with the most potential there. She also would do anything for me and isn’t so food focused. So maybe in a year or two.

Treed vs treeless vs bareback:
- Treed saddles are amazing for jumping. They take the huge forces on landing and distribute them well. There are knee rolls and a flat enough seat. It’s relatively easy to learn if they aren’t fitting right today. Downsides are that they are very specific in their fit and a complete nightmare as a result with a growing horse. They’re also not great with anything oddly shaped. Fitters are busy, getting an appt to reflock etc can take forever and then the horse goes and changes shape again…
- Treeless can be a good solution for a growing horse, but not all treeless brands fit every body shape, and they’re a bit (very!) rubbish for jumping anything large. The one make that advertises that it is good for jumping, seems to require as much adjustment as a treed saddle (going by those local to me).
- Bareback always fits, is always fun, but getting on from the ground out hacking is less than entertaining, and if you’re leading another horse off yours and it pulls sideways…also less fun. Jumping is fun and feels safer for me than with stirrups. For longer rides I would use a more padded pad, which is basically a treeless saddle without the stirrups so…

My ponies are currently mostly in TCS at home (kids love them, I can’t see a difference between that and a Thorn pad, other than the TCS doesn’t end up over the shoulders and down the neck!). I also have a Torsion (so comfy, very secure, brilliant for long rides but awful to jump in). We have a stack of treed saddles for shows/jumping, in my living room. Need to update the stack as my son no longer fits in a 14” seat, but that’s not hard to do.


Shoes vs barefoot:
- I have ponies. My farrier doesn’t want to shoe a pony and doesn’t think they need to be unless doing miles and miles of work. I agree and my bank balance does too! He would shoe a driving pony, endurance or whatever, or something for remedial reasons, quite happily.
- I had a TB, she wore front boots as needed. Seemed more efficient cost-wise. I will probably get some boots for NF this summer as she ends up doing so much hacking that her feet wear down.
- I also had a Welsh B x once who absolutely had to have shoes. Her feet were just terrible. She was shod all round. It was what she needed.

 

[Belmont]

I don't fit in to either box. I have one at 17yrs that has always been barefoot, hacks for miles and sound as a pound. My other is fully shod.
I used to ride my old TB bitless, he took to it like a duck to water. I ride my current 2 bitted. I know one would be fine bitless, but we compete so never thought of trying him bitless... although I may dig out my old sidepull for a mooch on him later

 

[suestowford]

FYI - I learnt a new word today! Zealot!

Might come in handy if you ever play scrabble and end up with the 'Z' tile