Barefoot completely out of ideas

First off you have my sympathy. I'm in the boat of having a rather grass sensitive native who was intermittently lame in shoes and making it his life's mission to try and win a boxing match with the farrier but still not 100% on stones barefoot. We now think his foot pain was probably causing the behaviour with the farrier (despite several professionals at the time telling me otherwise / that he was just being naughty). Stone issues aside his general soundness barefoot is vastly superior to his general soundness shod. Yes he does have to cross surfaces sometimes that he's less than 100% happy with (the yard drive for example) but if that's maybe a maximum of 10 minutes per day and he's 100% comfortable the rest of the time and is improving then I'm currently taking the view that it's better than the other options.

Some of the things that have helped with mine were taking him totally off the grass during the day (either stabled or in a abre paddock, adlib haylage provided either way) in Spring and Summer, muzzling when on rich grazing (he actually quite liked his muzzle as it meant he was going out on the grass with his mates!), soaking hay and then eventually switching to meadow haylage, being on a good quality mineral balancer plus mag ox and small amount of salt, feeding no molasses at all ever and playing about with different high fibre, low sugar feeds, lots of inhand walking on smooth roads and grass tracks to start with before building up to ridden work gradually and doing shorter routes more often at first rather than longer ones less often to keep things at a constant level and initially I'd alternate arena work and roadwork to prevent any soreness. By being very very careful and militant in my management of him (off grass early in a morning, back on late evening every single day no excuses and making sure he was worked at least 5 days a week year round) I managed to keep him mainly comfortable and happy at a yard with just about the least ideal grazing you can imagine (This did involve keeping him in the bare paddock for a few weeks with a friend when there was just too much grass for him to handle when they changed fields).

I have since moved yards and whilst I'm finding I'm coming up against less than ideal surfaces I've also got more margin for error as the grazing is quite poor but spread over a large area so he has to move about a lot. I may yet decide booting him to walk down the drive and taking them off at the bottom is the answer but at the moment I'm monitoring the situation and giving his feet a chance to adjust.
 
If the current trimmer cannot explain what is going on with your horse and he is still sore I would find a better trimmer. My experience is a good trimmer is far superior to anything else you change in your horses lifestyle.

I'm not one for removing horses off grass but am big on balancing the diet and provided suffient fibre when grass cant meet those needs. If your diet isn't optimum them your horse is never going to have decent feet - try and hide it all you like with shoes. Mine have had oats and no issues and always on green grass and outside 24/7 I would never again stable a horse either so bad for their entire system.

Most the shoes proponents on here wont post pictures of their horses feet because there are always issues disguised by shoes and well that's your choice but I hate how they bag people who want to be BF for the health of their horses. Its a long road fixing damaged feet and it pays to take progress pics as they help you see the light at the end of the tunnel or lack thereof in which case its time to reassess everything.
 
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maccachic said:
If the current trimmer cannot explain what is going on with your horse and he is still sore I would find a better trimmer. My experience is a good trimmer is far superior to anything else you change in your horses lifestyle.

I'm not one for removing horses off grass but am big on balancing the diet and provided suffient fibre when grass cant meet those needs. If your diet isn't optimum them your horse is never going to have decent feet - try and hide it all you like with shoes. Mine have had oats and no issues and always on green grass and outside 24/7 I would never again stable a horse either so bad for their entire system.

Most the shoes proponents on here wont post pictures of their horses feet because there are always issues disguised by shoes and well that's your choice but I hate how they bag people who want to be BF for the health of their horses. Its a long road fixing damaged feet and it pays to take progress pics as they help you see the light at the end of the tunnel or lack thereof in which case its time to reassess everything.
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The horse has been barefoot for two years, and has been so footsore that it can't work in that time. I don't see that as healthy. The OP has not been able to provide management to meet this horse's needs, but seems intent on keeping it struggling.
We often see barefoot posts with no pictures [as in this case], nothing is to be gained by those who have advocated shoes posting photos of their own horse's feet.
I am a barefoot advocate as are several who have contributed to this post, but it is unfair on the horse to have it struggle for two years when a pair of front shoes, and or hind shoes might sort it straight away.
 
maccachic said:
If the current trimmer cannot explain what is going on with your horse and he is still sore I would find a better trimmer. My experience is a good trimmer is far superior to anything else you change in your horses lifestyle.

I'm not one for removing horses off grass but am big on balancing the diet and provided suffient fibre when grass cant meet those needs. If your diet isn't optimum them your horse is never going to have decent feet - try and hide it all you like with shoes. Mine have had oats and no issues and always on green grass and outside 24/7 I would never again stable a horse either so bad for their entire system.

Most the shoes proponents on here wont post pictures of their horses feet because there are always issues disguised by shoes and well that's your choice but I hate how they bag people who want to be BF for the health of their horses. Its a long road fixing damaged feet and it pays to take progress pics as they help you see the light at the end of the tunnel or lack thereof in which case its time to reassess everything.
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It is up to the owner to provide the best welfare for their horse, keeping it stabled for a few hours at a time of day when grass is at its most sugary and providing hi fibre forage would seem a better choice.
The minerals can be bespoke, and again this should provide a better diet.
The work can include walking in hand on tarmac to self trim and balance.
The owner can rasp the edges every two weeks.
Micromanagement may help, but if the horse is not coping the owner should do something, and in this case [when it seems to be footsore all the time] there is no reason to avoid shoeing using a good farrier.
Good grass livery is a rarity in the UK so most horses will be stabled in winter with tunout during the day in many, but not all cases.
In this case the owner has not micromanaged the horse, has not provided bespoke minerals [requires forage/soil analysis], she is unable to tell us if her horse lands heel first on smooth tarmac, and the poor thing has to walk over stones every day to and from the field, how that is "good" for the horse is beyond me.
PS there are no trimmers in my local area, I used a good farrier to remove the shoes, and rasp as per a paddock trim. I bought my own rasp to use every two weeks, and rasped the feet on tarmac. The horse was never off work at any time due to being footsore. I asked my farriers if everything was ok, and they agreed he had perfect feet. He only needed a farrier if he was not looked after properly, and when with me, he was looked after properly.
My ponies were broken unshod, they were fed a good balanced diet and stabled during the day for handling and training.
 
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maccachic said:
If the current trimmer cannot explain what is going on with your horse and he is still sore I would find a better trimmer. My experience is a good trimmer is far superior to anything else you change in your horses lifestyle.

I'm not one for removing horses off grass but am big on balancing the diet and provided suffient fibre when grass cant meet those needs. If your diet isn't optimum them your horse is never going to have decent feet - try and hide it all you like with shoes. Mine have had oats and no issues and always on green grass and outside 24/7 I would never again stable a horse either so bad for their entire system.

Most the shoes proponents on here wont post pictures of their horses feet because there are always issues disguised by shoes and well that's your choice but I hate how they bag people who want to be BF for the health of their horses. Its a long road fixing damaged feet and it pays to take progress pics as they help you see the light at the end of the tunnel or lack thereof in which case its time to reassess everything.
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Why on earth would or should I post pictures of my horses feet?
I don't have any problems I can't manage myself .
 
I actually think that many of the shoe proponents in this instance currently keep their horses barefoot, comfortable and working. I'm certainly very happy to put up pics of such feet :p.

It has been said on here before, most (if not all) horses have the capacity to be barefoot, some require more perfect conditions than others and sometimes those conditions will be such that the owner cannot provide them (this is not a slight on the owner more that we live within a UK livery yard system). If this the case then compromising welfare long term is not ok so horse either has to be booted when coming across surfaces it cannot manage or shod.

Diet balancing is a dark art- it isn't really ascertained what is 'perfect' so it isn't like there is a all encompassing formula that will be guaranteed to work for all horses. And most can have oats without issues, my own included but they are perhaps the not quite so sensitive ones that cope well with grass too. I also imagine NZ grass might be a bit different to our own given how different I have found wiltshire grass from somerset grass.
 
Not sure what you all feel about this idea but I will share it with you anyway...

I sometimes feel that grass management and the dark arts ( love that ester!) ca n only get you so far. The major component to sound hooves is getting enough work.

Of course, how does one do that when a horse is not sound enough to do the footfalls required? Well, boots and pads help to build a weak foot. All of it. Not just sole or frog but everything inside. First everything in there has to be properly balanced with a good trim. Or else it won't strengthen. This may take three months or six months. Not that long. You see the hoof's ability to adapt and marvel at it.

Once the inner structures are beefed up and strong, some acclimatisation to terrain will be possible without boots. Tarmac is just dream stuff! Perfect for hooves. Thank goodness for cars or we wouldn't have it. Then, you get going, you're motoring on the stuff without any issues. You marvel again at how he hooves have adapted.

Stones however remain a challenge. You see the horses footfall change, you think you need to boot again. So the hooves never adapt.

A lot of people stop here.

Instead of thinking, the hooves need to adapt, we think they need protecting again. What actually needs to be done is to get the horse to spend more time on a rough surface. Gravel first maybe. Then bigger stones. This means a whole change in where you turn out or change your turnout to include stony areas. How many yards have this? Not many. So this is where many have to go back to shoes.

This is why many farriers say horses need shoes... It's because the country is not set up to succeed with barefoot.
 
tallyho! said:
A lot of people stop here.

Instead of thinking, the hooves need to adapt, we think they need protecting again. What actually needs to be done is to get the horse to spend more time on a rough surface. Gravel first maybe. Then bigger stones. This means a whole change in where you turn out or change your turnout to include stony areas. How many yards have this? Not many. So this is where many have to go back to shoes.


This is why many farriers say horses need shoes... It's because the country is not set up to succeed with barefoot.
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fortunately they do stop here as they have the sense to realise making a horse sore and uncomfortable to pursue some valhalla barefoot dream is a welfare issue.

If a horse is footy then leaving him on a surface he cannot cope with is not going to toughen up the feet it is simply going to make him more sore. That is the reality of it.

The comments made by the farrier on the earlier page are correct. . Some horse's just cannot make it barefoot, full stop, end of message.

Diet and supplements can only go so far. Ultimately for this poster I think that the problem lies in the actual feet themselves and they are unlikely to ever make it, certainly with the management the poster can give the horse. Maybe in a Rockley situation they would have more chance but in the real world that liveries live in it isn't always possible.

Maccachic, barefoot isn't helping the health of this horse. If it has sore feet there will be knock on effects in the rest of it's body. It also can't be helping the mental health of the horse if is it footsore. Issues are disguised by shoes, no one would dispute that. However it is sometimes better to weigh up the issues they will disguise against the current welfare of the horse.

It is a long road to fixing damaged feet but this poster is 2 years down the road and if she hasn't got there by now then I think success is unlikely.

Before you diss me for supporting shoeing the horse then I have had barefoot horses for the best part of 40 years and all my horses are barefoot as I can make it work for them. If I was in the poster's position however then shoes would have to be tried.
 
I forgot to add, why can't this horse have shoes now rather than waiting. He could have a good winter's riding and comfort then rather than worrying about either boots or periods with uncomfortable feet.
 
Paddy555, I'm in total agreement.. If you're as my posts I am the one who said some horses cannot go barefoot.

I'm not some sick idiot who actually puts their horses on stones just to let them adapt. I'm just saying that that is how the hooves adapt. No one has that facility or is willing to do that. That's what shoes are for!

I wish people would not paraphrase me and actually read what I write. At least I give people the time to read what they have written.
 
I had J Bf for around eighteen months when I first bought him It took along time for him to be comfortable but that does not mean we left him uncomfortable we worked according within his tolerance .
By the end he was walking happily across stony car parks however I always had to manage the amount he did on the most challenging surfaces .
What promted me into reshoeing him was the fact he was not happy XC ,shoeing immediatly made him more confident and studs improved his confidence even more .
Horses that have general sole pain are not in the same situation as a horse who stand on a big stone and pick their foot back up quickly.
There's a big diffence between the two .
Testing with hoof testers is I feel a useful way to gauge where you are at .
Not all BF people are working lame uncomfortable horses and not all shod horses are having an unsoundness masked by shoes .
Managing horses is about managing lots of things we don't have the luxury of managing one issue we have to manage the whole horse and yes they have to do a job for lots of us as well , I don't keep horses to fuss on with their feet all the time I buy them to do job and if that job means they have shoes on part of the time I am very comfortable with the ethics of that .
Two years is long enough for a horse to be footsore .
 
Thank you. I Will leave you to investigate further on nitrogen compound. My horse goes orange and footy when fed anything that is not organic, I speak from experience and was merely trying to help the original poster who is clearly at a loss as was I until I found this out. I guess you have different experiences and knowledge to me 😄
 
Goldenstar said:
I had J Bf for around eighteen months when I first bought him It took along time for him to be comfortable but that does not mean we left him uncomfortable we worked according within his tolerance .
By the end he was walking happily across stony car parks however I always had to manage the amount he did on the most challenging surfaces .
What promted me into reshoeing him was the fact he was not happy XC ,shoeing immediatly made him more confident and studs improved his confidence even more .
Horses that have general sole pain are not in the same situation as a horse who stand on a big stone and pick their foot back up quickly.
There's a big diffence between the two .
Testing with hoof testers is I feel a useful way to gauge where you are at .
Not all BF people are working lame uncomfortable horses and not all shod horses are having an unsoundness masked by shoes .
Managing horses is about managing lots of things we don't have the luxury of managing one issue we have to manage the whole horse and yes they have to do a job for lots of us as well , I don't keep horses to fuss on with their feet all the time I buy them to do job and if that job means they have shoes on part of the time I am very comfortable with the ethics of that .
Two years is long enough for a horse to be footsore .
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Very sensible post. I agree 2 years is far too long to be messing about. You should have a fair idea by a year or 18mo.
 
Bonkers2 said:
I hate to tell you, all grass fertilier has nitrogen in it, grass wont grow if there is no nitrogen.
All air has oxygen and nitrogen in it.[/Thank you. I Will leave you to investigate further on nitrogen compound. My horse goes orange and footy when fed anything that is not organic, I speak from experience and was merely trying to help the original poster who is clearly at a loss as was I until I found this out. I guess you have different experiences and knowledge to me 😄QUOTE]
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Just to clarify as it seems to be misunderstood. My lad has been barefoot on his hinds since 2013 since taking advise on here from when I posted about him toe dragging, it was pointed out he has horrendous feet. So front April 2013 to September 2013 he was bare behind and coped pretty well I did buy him some boots to go across really stoney ground but we continued ridden work and competing. His feet improved from the outside dramatically. In September 2013 I had his fronts removed as he was having an operation on his sinuses so wasn't going to be in work for a little while so I thought it would be a good opportunity to give his fronts a break. From that point onwards I decided to keep him bare to see if I could keep him that way as well as the added benefits of his deformed feet improving. Visually looking at his feet they have improved a lot from being in shoes albeit his hinds have digressed a bit.

The amount of money, time, research and effort I have put into trying to get him comfortable barefoot motivated me for this long as well as seeking advice online you always get told different things so its hard to make a decision that I feel is right for us both. Just to clarify however, he has not been footsore 100% of the time in all situations. He is sore over stoney ground that he is faced with on bringing in and turning out. He is still ridden 6 days a week on a surface, grass, tarmac and booted for hacking and he competes.

I do realise its just getting silly now and I am fed up of pushing it anymore when I know he's just not going to improve. The reason why I want to leave him bare over the winter is to then start the cycle or shoeing through spring/summer and autumn/winter bare to give his feet a break. his feet dramatically improve going through winter and he is no where near as sore as he is through the summer months although it would never be said he is rock-crunching over stones but I am largely pleased with his way of going.

In regards to previous questions above last summer he stayed in all summer during the day and was walked out in hand or long lined. He didn't improve from staying it but the walk on tarmac helped with self-rasping his feet.
 
Orange!?!?

That still depends on the type of grass though I think. At my parents' place in somerset - on clay, old grass ley, unfertilised in at least 15 prob 20-30 years either with organic or inorganic fertiliser, although obviously with some clover etc that will fix nitrogen. Masses of frickin grass!

On yard in wiltshire, on chalk, mixed old ley, fertilised annually with with chemical fertiliser a hell of a lot less grass and grass growth and a lot of weeds and other growth (which I am quite happy to have most of for the mixed grazing).

We have better feet on the latter though the horse is also getting more work and is worked on more challenging surfaces regularly.

GS very right- I would worry if F didn't react to a big stone on a solid surface or pay attention when crossing the hardcore to the school but you would never get a reaction with hoof testers (the vet has tried!)
 
ester said:
Orange!?!?

That still depends on the type of grass though I think. At my parents' place in somerset - on clay, old grass ley, unfertilised in at least 15 prob 20-30 years either with organic or inorganic fertiliser, although obviously with some clover etc that will fix nitrogen. Masses of frickin grass!

On yard in wiltshire, on chalk, mixed old ley, fertilised annually with with chemical fertiliser a hell of a lot less grass and grass growth and a lot of weeds and other growth (which I am quite happy to have most of for the mixed grazing).

We have better feet on the latter though the horse is also getting more work and is worked on more challenging surfaces regularly.

GS very right- I would worry if F didn't react to a big stone on a solid surface or pay attention when crossing the hardcore to the school but you would never get a reaction with hoof testers (the vet has tried!)
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Yes I am lucky enough to to have a deep chestnut horse when healthy and as soon as he eats anything with NPK on it (grass 4 different yards and hay)he goes footy and grows a dead looking orange tinged coat.

Just trust me on this one, even the non barefoot vets and 3 farriers who know my horse now actually conversate with me about Archie's sensitivity. Not to mention my trimmer and all the people who have seen him change whilst on spring grazing from NPK hay to notmal and come right and have a color change in a matter of weeks. Nothing to do with the grass im afraid only what's put on it in his case.

I have had him on chalk and clay grazing with no issues....

I hope the op can cancel this out rather then me justifying what I absilutley know to be accurate in out personal case.

Different horses for different courses I think.
 
I am not sure that has clarified anything really, except that under certain conditions [and they are numerous], certain horses [some are very sensitive, some are not], can have metabolic issues.
The uptake of K into forages will vary with seasonality and with the forage species. It is too simplistic to say, for example, don't use K in fertiliser.
In practice, not many horse grazed fields get any fertiliser, but nearly all cow pasture fields do.
 
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Bonkers2 said:
I am not sure that has clarified anything really, except that under certain conditions [and they are numerous], certain horses [some are very sensitive, some are not], can have metabolic issues.
The uptake of K into forages will vary with seasonality and with the forage species. It is too simplistic to say, for example, don't use K in fertiliser.
In practice, not many horse grazed fields get any fertiliser, but nearly all cow pasture fields do.
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I think it highlighted that the increased K inhibited metabolism of other essential minerals within the horse. This means quite a lot to me now as I always wondered about our pasture... being a beef farm the farmer fertilises hugely and all his silage is heavily fertilised. His cows do suffer from staggers sometimes...

You are right Bonkers2, some of the horses were quite dull in the winter ground. They are in unfertilised paddocks now and so are very shiny and blooming.

Food for thought for me at least Archie73. I always knew something was related to fertiliser but never knew where to start looking.
 
My horse is on hardcore 24/7, never eats grass and is never stabled. She only eats hay and a has a BF diet. This is for (life saving) health reasons.

I had her shoes off when I bought her in December and her feet were excellent immediately.

She is still careful on very stony ground. Not sore, careful, which I think is normal/how she should be.

She's doing 70-100km a week barefoot on tarmac and rough tracks.

I did wonder/worry about this because where I go for lessons the carpark is stony and she will occasionally take a short step if she stands on a sharp stone. Last day I was there a girl was walking her horse off and called out to her mother (who is a vet) that she was taking it on the tarmac as the stones were hurting her feet. She's shod! So I decided mine isn't doing too badly at all.

You need to look at the big picture with any horse.

If I was on livery things would be different (horse might be dead for a start!) but as I'm at home I can keep my horse in optimum conditions.
 
My horse was retired 5 years ago and went barefoot but was never happy on our yard. It's concrete but some of the pea shingle gets kicked onto it and he couldn't cope with that although he was fine on a surface or in the field. I have recently had X-Rays done of his feet due to a recent bout of laminitis (he has Cushings and is Insulin Resistant) which showed he had very thin soles. As I am able to ride him again in walk I had shoes put back on him with pads and it has changed him completely. Sometimes I think you have to accept that your horse is not happy barefoot.

Edited to add I did try boots but due to the size of his feet I am very limited in choice. The ones I used seemed to rub him at the front of his pastern.
 
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Interesting statement....not many horse grazed fields get any fertiliser, but nearly all cow pasture fields do.....

In the kent Surrey borders where I am I know of many yards that fertilise horse fields that used to be cow pasture.

Nearly all hay and haylage produced by local producers is NPK fertilised.

Once your add just 3 minerals as you do with NPK its out of balance which if you think of the number of macro and micro minerals there are to provide the correct diet makes perfect sense to me.
 
Archie73 said:
Interesting statement....not many horse grazed fields get any fertiliser, but nearly all cow pasture fields do.....

In the kent Surrey borders where I am I know of many yards that fertilise horse fields that used to be cow pasture.

Nearly all hay and haylage produced by local producers is NPK fertilised.

Once your add just 3 minerals as you do with NPK its out of balance which if you think of the number of macro and micro minerals there are to provide the correct diet makes perfect sense to me.
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You must me so close to me, do you mind letting me know where you get your organic hay from please.
 
Archie73 said:
Interesting statement....not many horse grazed fields get any fertiliser, but nearly all cow pasture fields do.....

In the kent Surrey borders where I am I know of many yards that fertilise horse fields that used to be cow pasture.

Nearly all hay and haylage produced by local producers is NPK fertilised.

Once your add just 3 minerals as you do with NPK its out of balance which if you think of the number of macro and micro minerals there are to provide the correct diet makes perfect sense to me.
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Ah yes, but that is too simplistic: the uptake of minerals throught the root hairs is in solution, and that solution will have all three NPK and the other minerals, so the roots act as selective filters, they may or may not alter the mineral balance of the plant
However if you continually fertilise a field, it is the grasses which respond best to fertiliser which will proliferate, rygrasses being the most responsive.
Dairy farmers who want to use clover to fix nitrgogen [as some organic farmers do], will find that if they put a lot of nitrogen fertiliser on a field this will reduce the clovers.

To me one of the most important things when I look at a field for grazing is not the fertiliser but the mix of grass species and herb species.
An old meadow type pasture field will always be better for horses than ryegrass leys.
All hay and silage has to be fertilsed to yield a decent crop of forage, there would not be enough forage produced without the use of fertiliser, and that is nearly always NKP in some ratio to maximise yield economically.
 
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