Barefoot cruelty

orionstar said:
It's been 6 weeks since my sensitive wBxtb had her shoes off. I bought her from a field ontop of a moor in Lancashire as a 3 year old and the first thing she did when arriving was stand on a stone and limp to the yard. Since then she has had an excellent diet full of hoof suppliments etc etc, various blood tests for you name it and she is now 6. The farrier is very pleased with her feet, her sole and frog have hardened, but she still dosent want to walk through the stream across the stones to the yard, so as soon as the hoof angle improves under the new managementand is shod I will look forward to a horse that will happily walk through the stream and across the tracks in the woods because horses should walk happily. Ancient Arab's wrapped leather around their horses feet for a reason and Romans invented the hippo sandal around the same time as they started to put in hard roads.
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Sorry but 6 weeks and you expect her to be walking on stones already... they say you need knowledge as well as patience. Prime example of when one shouldn't attempt barefoot. Why did you even bother if you already knew you would fail because they found leather poultices in ancient Rome?
 
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hairycob said:
The attitude you see in those last two paragraphs is what puts people who are thinking about it off going barefoot. Arrogant & holier than thou.
A (very well known & praised on here by the taliban) farrier who does about 2/3 barefoot has been coming to 2 horses on my yards. He told one of them that he uses the hoof tester every time on all his barefoot clients but doesn't for the shod horses because the owners don't care if their horses feet hurt. To me that says either
1) Either the hoof testing is useful but he doesn't do the best for 1/3 of his clients - the 3rd he thinks don't care about their horses - shocking attitude.
2) It isn't really usefull but he panders to that holier than thou attitude that so many barefooters have.
3) He lied, he does use it on all his client but still panders to "that" attitude.
Whichever it is it doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about his ethics & so I would not have this much praised & well known practitioner near my horses barefoot or not.
My horses have variously been unshod/fronts only/shod depending on the horse & it's needs at the time. My horses have a "barefoot" diet even though both are shod at the moment because I believe it's a good "whole horse" diet. If anyone can manage to make me feel like running away screaming they are not going to convert very many people to try barefoot are they.
It's a shame because this thread had actually started to develop into one of the most rational debates I have seen - ok the nearest I have ever found.
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Oh good God, if what people say here can set you back from making such decisions for your animal, you need to get out more love. If you think this is about CONVERTING people, then you are mistaken. It's about the truth. I spend my time trying to stop people who think they can just whip shoes off and carry on as normal. People don't understand there can be a lot more to it. I wouldn't try and persuade you because you sound like one of the people who shouldn't try barefoot. And yes, accuse me of being whatever you like but barefoot is not something you enter into lightly... definitely not if you think a forum is the place to start. So no, don't do it or else it WILL be cruel.
 
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I'd just like to say that most of my statements were very similar to all the negative shoer's on here.

When it looked like Heidi was going to need wedges I said right, this isn't going to happen. Hence forth lots of my own research and reading all the bare threads without making stupid snotty one sided comments.

Thank you Barefoot Taliban! And mostly to CPTrayes. I sent her pics privately because I didn't want to be ridiculed on here. She has been super.

Anyway, my horses have benefitted the most!

Terri
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
I'd just like to say that most of my statements were very similar to all the negative shoer's on here.

When it looked like Heidi was going to need wedges I said right, this isn't going to happen. Hence forth lots of my own research and reading all the bare threads without making stupid snotty one sided comments.

Thank you Barefoot Taliban! And mostly to CPTrayes. I sent her pics privately because I didn't want to be ridiculed on here. She has been super.

Anyway, my horses have benefitted the most!

Terri
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Well done! Congratulations for being open minded enough to research and consider an alternative. To the "barefoot taliban" congratulations on reasoned argument and sticking it out! It's a shame that those who don't know/understand don't know they don't know!! The evidence is growing all the time, unlike the arguments for shoeing.....and I would love to know where to find "scientific proof" that shoeing is good for a horse!!
 
Just like to say that I'm sorry if part of my last post upset anyone, it certainly wasn't meant to be upsetting or rude.

Just frustration really, at constantly going over the same ground, whilst the same reasons for shoeing are trotted out (no pun intended) year after year.

When you know something works and is beneficial you really want everyone and their horses to share.
 
The only time my current horse ever "needed" shoes was when she was on grazing that was contaminated by pesticides, I just didn't twig at the time and put fronts on, which didn't make a whole lot of difference and the minute they came off she started walking again instead of shuffiling. Change of grazing and more attention paid to diet means we can walk and trot on the roads, stoney roads, and sometimes break into an accidental canter with no negative consequences. The yard I am on is all barefoot, most are tbs and warmbloods with no problems, one has recovered from very severe navicular and underrun heels. It's not just dependant on breed, every horse CAN go without shoes so long as it is done properly
 
Kallibear said:
A sweeping statement. POOR shoeing causes that. Good shoeing doesn't do much damage although it does prevent the horse from developing foot structures.
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I don't think this is true Kallibear, but we are all still waiting for more research. In the only peer reviewed study so far, a single cycle of good shoeing reduced the circumference of the coronet band significantly, and altered the toe angle as well.

In unpublished research, foot dissections show that shod horses have lateral catilages VERY significantly smaller than those of shod horses.

And any old idiot can poke the digital cushion of 100 shod horses and 100 working barefoot horses and tell that there is a very big difference in quality of that vital structure.

Lastly, unshod working feet tend to grow at around twice the rate of shod horses in the same work, which does seem to me to indicate that something is being compromised somewhere.

The fact is that most horses appear to go through life shod with no problems, but that does not mean that their feet have not been adversely affected by shoes. Who knows what aches and pains they put up with without complaining? Anecdotally, yet again, the barefoot world is littered with badly behaved horses whose temperaments changed when their shoes were removed.
 
OK lets go back over some more old ground because people can't understand why shoes were developed in the first place if they weren't needed.

They were needed.

They were needed because horses were machines who had to earn their living.

They were needed because many horses cannot do that if:

- they are fed a diet high in carbohydrates, including too much grass and high grain feeds.
- they stand in stable muck and ammonia from urine breakdown
- their workload varies massively from day to day (I need the carriage for a 40 mile trip to a party tonight James.)


Our horses are not now machines, they are leisure animals. If their feet are a little soft from standing in the wet it does not kill us to boot up or not ride, as it did if you lost a horse from the battle, or your hackney couldn't earn the money from cab fares to feed your children.

Times have changed. So should our ideas regarding hoof care for horses.
 
cptrayes said:
OK lets go back over some more old ground because people can't understand why shoes were developed in the first place if they weren't needed.

They were needed.

They were needed because horses were machines who had to earn their living.

They were needed because many horses cannot do that if:

- they are fed a diet high in carbohydrates, including too much grass and high grain feeds.
- they stand in stable muck and ammonia from urine breakdown
- their workload varies massively from day to day (I need the carriage for a 40 mile trip to a party tonight James.)


Our horses are not now machines, they are leisure animals. If their feet are a little soft from standing in the wet it does not kill us to boot up or not ride, as it did if you lost a horse from the battle, or your hackney couldn't earn the money from cab fares to feed your children.

Times have changed. So should our ideas regarding hoof care for horses.
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And so that when they kicked a man in battle he stayed down, they effectively had another 4 men to add to their armies with each shod horse which were trained to kick and trample :)
 
Mind you when my old bare 50 mile a week on the road did her one and only kick on another horse the damage was substantial. I wasn't pleased about the kick, but her hooves rang like iron on a hard surface
 
I tend to agree with those who put the development of shoes down to military origins. We are talking about the medieval period, when men and horses were covered in steel armour, a simple step to tip the horses feet with steel shoes making lethal weapons of them.
I also think that there would have been an increase in the level of lameness though bacterial causes at around this time, with horses being stabled within castles and keeps, which would have seen some improvement through shoeing.
Working rather than military horses, were not shod as a matter of course, my own grandfathers draught horses were not shod, even the ploughing teams, as it wasn't necessary.
Few horses were continually shod as is the fashion today, most horses, like hunters, hacks and vanners, often spent time unshod. Times have changed, fortunately nothing stays the same and things are changing for the modern horse.
 
Sort of still playing nicely! Lucy has said it for me, out this weekend with a friend and her shod endurance horse I noticed as we trotted along the road that my lad's hooves were making almost as much noise on the tarmac as hers were. We're another barefooter who does around 15 miles of roadwork a week too. I hope that doesn't make me cruel, but unfortunately for those of you who think I am being cruel, I can't seem to stop my lad wanting to trot or even canter everywhere on the roads! :eek: I don't actually ask him to canter on roads as I wouldn't like to meet a car going so fast but given the choice he'd clearly like to do so! Does that sound like his hooves are sore?
 
cptrayes said:
I don't think this is true Kallibear, but we are all still waiting for more research. In the only peer reviewed study so far, a single cycle of good shoeing reduced the circumference of the coronet band significantly, and altered the toe angle as well.

In unpublished research, foot dissections show that shod horses have lateral catilages VERY significantly smaller than those of shod horses.

And any old idiot can poke the digital cushion of 100 shod horses and 100 working barefoot horses and tell that there is a very big difference in quality of that vital structure.

Lastly, unshod working feet tend to grow at around twice the rate of shod horses in the same work, which does seem to me to indicate that something is being compromised somewhere.

The fact is that most horses appear to go through life shod with no problems, but that does not mean that their feet have not been adversely affected by shoes. Who knows what aches and pains they put up with without complaining? Anecdotally, yet again, the barefoot world is littered with badly behaved horses whose temperaments changed when their shoes were removed.
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But I suspect it's far more "use it or loose it" than active damage. If you dragged a 3yr old out, who'd done naff all but stand in a soft field, and nailed shoes to it, I doubt you'd see much change. Totally different from a working barefoot horse who now stops using it's feet due to shoes. A bit like when my arm was in a cast from breaking it. I ended up with a skinny, rather useless arm afterwards that'd atrophied away due to lack of use. That however does not mean the cast actively damaged my arm. There was always the chance it COULD have caused damage: if it'd been positioned wrong there was a chance I could have ended up with a squint arm and muscle, tendon and bone damage. Rather like poor shoeing. Good shoeing does not let them use their feet to full potential so the structures atrophy (or never develop in the first place, if they are umlucky enough to be shod from a very young age) which of course is not a good thing but I don't think it actively damages the foot. Which is why you can usually whip the shoes off a well shod foot, build the structures back up quickly and never look back. Pale Riders attitude that you're killing your horse by shoeing it is evangelical brainwashing at it's worse and extremely off putting for those with less extreme veiws. No wonder there are so many vitriolic anti-baarefooters around!

Of course the problem is detecting poor shoeing that is damaging the feet, BEFORE it becomes a serious issue. They all look very similar!
 
Kallibear said:
But I suspect it's far more "use it or loose it" than active damage. If you dragged a 3yr old out, who'd done naff all but stand in a soft field, and nailed shoes to it, I doubt you'd see much change.
!
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But it is likely that nailing those shoes on to a 3 yr old would then prevent the internal hoof structures form growing and developing which they do until the age of 7 in some horses and that growth of internal structures may then be permenantly impaired.
 
Two problems Kallibear. I can't distinguish between the cast damaging your arm and loss of use damaging your arm when it was the cast that was preventing the use. Loss of use due to shoes causes damage. The loss of use, and therefore the damage, is caused by the shoes.

I also disagree with you that it is only poor shoeing that damages feet. One of my horses was shod perfectly. Heel support, hoof/pastern axis alignment, right size, balanced, etc. I was complimented on it. But it did not prevent him from developign such thin soles that he could not walk up stony tracks.

Removing his shoes, with no diet changes, caused his soles to thicken up to such an extent that he could do the same tracks without shoes that he was unable to do in shoes.

Some horses, albeit a minority, are damaged by shoeing, good or bad.
 
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pip6 said:
I sent another mare on breeding loan to a very good stud this summer. Whilst there a retired farrier did barefoot trimming on her (I did not know they had this ethos). She wasn't happy, & didn't take, so I got her back in July. When I collected her she had just been 'trimmed' a few days before. She was so lame & in pain she could barely put one foot in front the other even on grass. [..] My girl may well be unshod again over the winter (trimmed by my farrier), but I will never use someone who purports to use barefoot principles.
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When my brother was a year old he had a hernia which a GP misdiagnosed. As a result he nearly died, and only survived because an off-duty A&E nurse recognised the problem. Of course due to this I will never go see a GP but always go to A&E for everything because I will never use anyone who purports to follow the principles of preventative medicine.

Makes about as much sense as the statement above!
 
cptrayes said:
I can't distinguish between the cast damaging your arm and loss of use damaging your arm when it was the cast that was preventing the use. Loss of use due to shoes causes damage. The loss of use, and therefore the damage, is caused by the shoes.
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I think Kallibear is distinguishing between temporary damage due to atrophy and lack of use which (especially if only short term) can be completely reversed fairly easily, and serious / long-term damage that may not be completely reversible (at least not easily).

So for instance a previously bare horse can be well shod for a season and providing it is given a few weeks reduced work (or partially booted work) to allow the feet to get back into shape once the shoes come off again there is no harm done. On the other hand if it is badly shod for that same period it could be a different story (the shoes may have actively damaged the hooves).
 
Pale Rider said:
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Farriery is a black art, and average farriers credited with a lot they don't deserve.
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Not sure any farrier after years and years of training would agree with their skills being referred to as "black art"!

As for the generalisation that barefoot endurance horses are "turned away for weeks" because they are lame after competing - is it not true that they are rigorously vetted through every stage?

Believe both sides to this ongoing and very boring argument need to stop exaggerating and stick to the facts! Even better - get on with your lives and stop trying to thrust your beliefs down someone else's throat!!!!
 
mcnaughty said:
Not sure any farrier after years and years of training would agree with their skills being referred to as "black art"!

As for the generalisation that barefoot endurance horses are "turned away for weeks" because they are lame after competing - is it not true that they are rigorously vetted through every stage?

Believe both sides to this ongoing and very boring argument need to stop exaggerating and stick to the facts! Even better - get on with your lives and stop trying to thrust your beliefs down someone else's throat!!!!
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Agree with the last statement 100%. Extreme barefootiness is almost as annoying to me as the Shoes Rox Klan.

WRT the Black Art comment, I would simply say that whatever farriery is, it certainly wouldn't fit any description of a science.
 
laura_nash said:
I think Kallibear is distinguishing between temporary damage due to atrophy and lack of use which (especially if only short term) can be completely reversed fairly easily, and serious / long-term damage that may not be completely reversible (at least not easily).

So for instance a previously bare horse can be well shod for a season and providing it is given a few weeks reduced work (or partially booted work) to allow the feet to get back into shape once the shoes come off again there is no harm done. On the other hand if it is badly shod for that same period it could be a different story (the shoes may have actively damaged the hooves).
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I'm struggling to find sense in that above.

If you buy/read any old farriery off amazon, pretty much from the foreward it says "shoes cause damage".

It doesn't say "bad shoes causes damage".

Mine was badly shod and still managed to work bf in a short timeframe so that argument hasn't purported itself with that hypothesis.
 
Mine was shod from 5, even though sound without cos it was just what was done years ago. She's now 23, & a good few years ago the farrier suggested trying her without. Having always been sound when she lost one, it wasn't that suprising she didn't go through a transistion period. Bit footy on really stony ground at first, but easily got round. So evidently good shoeing hasn't done any harm. But knowing what I do now I wish I had never shod her, because I think it comes down to luck more than anything.
I'm not saying I wouldn't shoe any horse ever again. But, I'd want to know exactly why it needed shoes, & only then if the actual cause couldn't be solved.
 
TB, started as 2yo filly finished her career at 8. Many wins. Broodmare for years so has had periods of no shoes. Started ridden work again at 16. At 28, many time champion of VHS. Not retired yet. Shoes removed early this year to barefoot (26 years pretty much) not a problem as such but very small feet, contracted, boxy. Diet change. Now striding out on big strong frogs and tough bigger feet.

I would have said she was well shod, I have known the mare for 7 years or so. Given the right nutrients and environment, the feet seem to WANT to change and adapt.

Not the only barefoot tb on this yard now.
 
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Where there is blood supply - there is always the ability for the hooves to 'return to original factory settings' post shoe removal :).

Hope is lost when blood supply is permanently impaired - such as with chronic laminitis.

To shoe or not to shoe is the decision of the owner and no one has the right to judge that choice.

The Barefoot Taliban will always be available to help pass on information and advice (to the best of our abilities) in order to improve hoof health - no matter whether the person asking the questions shoes or doesn't shoe.
 
I really can't believe this is still going.

I have 5 bare and 1 with fronts on, all use to be shod and I was totally anti barefoot and use to speak my views quite openly on such threads. Then my lovely ex racer had serious feet problems and after x rays even THE VET stated my best chance was barefoot. So what would you do? As a owner completely against barefoot? I had no choice but to try it and I sat down doing research after research and the more I read the more it all made sence. Hence why I now have 5 1/2 bare. All are sound, and have better feet for it. I cringe when I see bad shoeing, horses with bar shoes or pads, wedges etc. I love to hear the patter of bare feet on the rds.
 
Oberon said:
Where there is blood supply - there is always the ability for the hooves to 'return to original factory settings' post shoe removal :).

Hope is lost when blood supply is permanently impaired - such as with chronic laminitis.

To shoe or not to shoe is the decision of the owner and no one has the right to judge that choice.

The Barefoot Taliban will always be available to help pass on information and advice (to the best of our abilities) in order to improve hoof health - no matter whether the person asking the questions shoes or doesn't shoe.
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(Gives a little cheer!) I can hear Dambusters-type music playing in the background now.
 
I believe the proof of the pudding is in the eating...and I see endurance riders doing The Quilty, Tevis and other rides 100 miles in one day, plus of course the training required and doing it barefoot or in boots.....vet checks along the way and at the end.....and don't try telling me boots are like shoes 'cos they're not!!! Boots allow hoof mechanism.....
 
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