Barefoot cruelty

All joking apart, the single thing that converted me was a comment (I dont even remember where I saw it but somewhere on the internet) about holding a hoof boot in your hand and banging it off concrete. Then do the same holding a shoe. You feel the reverberations going right through your arm. This is what the horse feels - every single stride.

Although I originally took Arnies shoes off as a winter experiment, reading that really gave me a jolt and made me stop and think.

I am not anti shoe - I am not saying I will never shoe again. I can absolutely guarantee I will never shoe all year round again but I can also guarantee shoes off is going to be my first option and will always now be my ideal.
 
It is true that there is nothing natural about riding horses. But, I think that the symbiotic relationship that has developed between us as two diametrically opposed species is for us a rare privilege. It's because of this that I feel so strongly that, for my horses at least, whatever I do, I do for them, not too them.
I want them to be mentally, emotionally and physically fit, healthy and happy, within their own skin.

Over the years, this has meant massive changes in the way I keep and manage them, but looking back to how things were 20 or 30 years ago, and the problems we had in those days, I feel we are on the right track, and barefoot is part of that.
 
Hello. I'm new here. I'm from Canada. I just left a similar thread over here and its interesting to find myself here as well. What are pony nuts?? LOL!

Anyway, I trim my own. Been doing it for 14 years. I was on the front lines fighting for the barefoot trim back then. I wasn't religious about it either. I had a hard won faith indeed. I had to go through the process for myself, as have many others.

The barefoot trim journey is so amazing! They are like 4 organs that are crucial to the whole health of a horse. I once removed the torque from a 3" stretched white line. When I put the foot down, 2 steps later, the horse's sinuses just let loose and drained on the spot. It scared her, as she wasn't expecting it. The swelling under both eyes went down and it took a whole kleenex box to clean her up. That was restored flow in action....hemodynamic force from the foot affecting the immune system at the other end of the body. With so much at stake, now imagine what a decreased blood flow would do? Now think of the endocrine system, the pituitary, thyroid.....IR and Cushings. Every system in the body. The hoof is sooo important. It must function.

In answer to the OP's original post, yes this would upset me as well. If the measurement from the bottom of the groove at the apex, to the top of the finished wall height is less than 1/2", then I'd be hitting her with her own rasp. Without boots? Uh, uh. Here's some reasons why. Firstly, if the horse is moving in mincing steps and stumbling in pain, he is not only unsafe, but the lack of correct movement promotes nothing but more pain. You can be sure the rest of his body is getting thrown out of whack from this. The big one, or rasp hitting one, is that if the groove at the apex is shallow, then P3's nose could be low in the hoof, coming down on the inside of thin sole with the force of the horse's descending weight The ground is coming up from the outside to that same thin sole. This causes one of the reactions for bone change. BUT, unlike every other bone in the horse's body that is surrounded by a periosteum, that reacts and heals, P3 has a corium and it doesn't heal, it just destructs. There is no 2nd chance. So yeah, it would upset me too. A horse cannot survive without P3 and you don't want to be grinding it into sawdust. People should always think about what they leave, not what they take. Abscesses can be warnings and are always setbacks.

Food for thought and fodder if you need it. Hope this helps...
 
Skippys Mum said:
All joking apart, the single thing that converted me was a comment (I dont even remember where I saw it but somewhere on the internet) about holding a hoof boot in your hand and banging it off concrete. Then do the same holding a shoe. You feel the reverberations going right through your arm. This is what the horse feels - every single stride.

Although I originally took Arnies shoes off as a winter experiment, reading that really gave me a jolt and made me stop and think.

I am not anti shoe - I am not saying I will never shoe again. I can absolutely guarantee I will never shoe all year round again but I can also guarantee shoes off is going to be my first option and will always now be my ideal.
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Somewhere on youtube there are 2 videos of a pony trotting on tarmac - one with shoes and one without. You can see the waves of pressure running up the legs of the shod pony, and that, along with the thermal image of a horse with 1 leg bare and 3 shod, converted me!! And further research and learning convinced me!! However, of course, it is human nature to only hear what you want to hear!!! And I will not bang my head against brick walls!!!
 
The old saying "No foot - no horse" is so true.

WHat must be remembered is that in the wild a horse with bad feet would be dead, therefore natural selection ensured that horse were born with good feet.

People breed for a variety of reasons but very few ever look at feet when choosing a stallion or breeding a mare.

Some horses can go barefoot - some horses can do full work barefoot but many cannot.

I had a big heavyweight Irish Draught that had terrible feet in that the walls of his feet were paper thin. Being a hunter he had his shoes off in the summer when out at grass.
he was never sound when the ground got hard. He hated to go to the water tank if there was hard standing around it and, walking up the track he was a cripple.

When he retired he was full time lame because he had no shoes on. It was not a matter of not trying because we did but, he had poor feet and needed shoes.
 
Alyth said:
Somewhere on youtube there are 2 videos of a pony trotting on tarmac - one with shoes and one without. You can see the waves of pressure running up the legs of the shod pony, and that, along with the thermal image of a horse with 1 leg bare and 3 shod, converted me!! And further research and learning convinced me!! However, of course, it is human nature to only hear what you want to hear!!! And I will not bang my head against brick walls!!!
Click to expand...

Then don't.

What gets me from some people who go barefoot is they will not accept that it does not suit all horses. Some of mine are shod, some are not. I don't give a flying fig what some people think of what I do, my horses, my choices.

Your posts suggest that those people who are like me are perhaps blinkered. That is not the case. There is no wonder arguments rage over this subject when people cannot accept choices of others that quite frankly have **** all to do with anyone else.

I am not an idiot, I am an educated professional. I don't care that it's not in the equine world, but I like to think that I can make informed choices over what I do.
 
I wonder if your hunter had other issues going on for him. I would probably not have been putting this boy out on grass. However, if this is what you had and shoeing helped him then it was the right thing to do.

I don't personally believe that humans have bred the feet out of horses. Where is the proof in that? It was 30 Million years ago that "merychippus" started to walk on one toe and hippus as we know them today have been around for 1 million years and humans domesticated them (after mostly eating them for 20k years) about 4000 years ago. That is a miniscule amount of time. Feet that have taken THAT long to evolve do not suddenly go through devolution.

What has changed? Man. That is the one single thing that has changed for equus caballus. A grazer just like any other suddenly thrown into a world of burden, strange foods, strange surroundings, natural cycles all broken, fighting against every instinct and look how good they all are about it. Imagine what this does to their metabolism? What MISSYCLARE has said makes sense.

It is not genetics I feel that dictate the soundness of hooves, it is the environment as a whole.

If all the domesticated horses were let loose in a large mountain range, they would survive. Thats not a hypothesis, it really did happen and they still exist today, the Mustang & the Brumby.

As a barefooter, I try and provide as close as possible a bit of "wildness" to my horses. 24/7 turnout, no rugs (it is only England), provide minerals they would have found in the wild, so they wouldn't have found THAT much grass in a natural wilderness so that is why I need to consider diet so much.

And diet (and environment) is what I believe gives you a barefoot horse or a shod horse. It's modifiable.
 
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DragonSlayer said:
Then don't.

What gets me from some people who go barefoot is they will not accept that it does not suit all horses. Some of mine are shod, some are not. I don't give a flying fig what some people think of what I do, my horses, my choices.

Your posts suggest that those people who are like me are perhaps blinkered. That is not the case. There is no wonder arguments rage over this subject when people cannot accept choices of others that quite frankly have **** all to do with anyone else.

I am not an idiot, I am an educated professional. I don't care that it's not in the equine world, but I like to think that I can make informed choices over what I do.
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ROTFLMAO!!! I am pleased you are happy with your choices.....it's simply that you haven't considered any alternatives yet, if you have looked at the possibilities you haven't yet understood them. Or you believe the various lines that have been said for many many years. That's fine. However "professional" you are - your knowledge is in that area, not the area of barefoot horses.....that's fine!! Your horses, your choices. I sincerely hope you never have major decisions to make that is about their hoof health!! As has been said many times - all horses can go barefoot - not all owners can!! Good luck.
 
DragonSlayer said:
Then don't.

What gets me from some people who go barefoot is they will not accept that it does not suit all horses. Some of mine are shod, some are not. I don't give a flying fig what some people think of what I do, my horses, my choices.

Your posts suggest that those people who are like me are perhaps blinkered. That is not the case. There is no wonder arguments rage over this subject when people cannot accept choices of others that quite frankly have **** all to do with anyone else.

I am not an idiot, I am an educated professional. I don't care that it's not in the equine world, but I like to think that I can make informed choices over what I do.
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I so agree with you DS. I am frankly appalled by the attitudes of some on here. This barefoot thing is becoming like a religion. My 5 year old is having his fronts shod next week and I am looking forward to upping his work as a result. I am not messing around with minerals, hoof boots etc, I work a FT job and riding is my way of relaxing, the shoes will go on I can ride without worrying simples. He has coped well up until now but we are going further afield onto the flinty tracks and abrasive tarmac.My mare however has just had her shoes off.
 
DragonSlayer said:
Then don't.

What gets me from some people who go barefoot is they will not accept that it does not suit all horses. Some of mine are shod, some are not. I don't give a flying fig what some people think of what I do, my horses, my choices.

Your posts suggest that those people who are like me are perhaps blinkered. That is not the case. There is no wonder arguments rage over this subject when people cannot accept choices of others that quite frankly have **** all to do with anyone else.

I am not an idiot, I am an educated professional. I don't care that it's not in the equine world, but I like to think that I can make informed choices over what I do.
Click to expand...

If this is how you feel then no one can help that. Its how you choose to feel about it. The discussion will still go on whether you feel blinkered or not. No one is singling you out to say you are an idiot.

I think everyone accepts choices people make and vice-versa. The question was asked and people have answered it.

If you think you have made an informed choice then why are you feeling so angry with people who have made the same informed choices for their horses?
 
Alyth said:
ROTFLMAO!!! I am pleased you are happy with your choices.....it's simply that you haven't considered any alternatives yet, if you have looked at the possibilities you haven't yet understood them. Or you believe the various lines that have been said for many many years. That's fine. However "professional" you are - your knowledge is in that area, not the area of barefoot horses.....that's fine!! Your horses, your choices. I sincerely hope you never have major decisions to make that is about their hoof health!! As has been said many times - all horses can go barefoot - not all owners can!! Good luck.
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Seriously - you sound like those bible bashers who bang on the door - their way or no way, get a grip, and accept we all have a choice, put your point across but don't shove it down our throats. My horse my decision.
 
Foxhunter49 said:
The old saying "No foot - no horse" is so true.

WHat must be remembered is that in the wild a horse with bad feet would be dead, therefore natural selection ensured that horse were born with good feet.

People breed for a variety of reasons but very few ever look at feet when choosing a stallion or breeding a mare.

Some horses can go barefoot - some horses can do full work barefoot but many cannot.

I had a big heavyweight Irish Draught that had terrible feet in that the walls of his feet were paper thin. Being a hunter he had his shoes off in the summer when out at grass.
he was never sound when the ground got hard. He hated to go to the water tank if there was hard standing around it and, walking up the track he was a cripple.

When he retired he was full time lame because he had no shoes on. It was not a matter of not trying because we did but, he had poor feet and needed shoes.
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Exactly many of horses are little but the question is why ,why was the horse like that ?
There will a reason his ability to walk the way he was born was so impaired its just finding the reason that's the hard bit.
Shod or otherwise a horse that can't walk on its own feet is not healthy that does not mean you can always solve the issue.
Our ID struggled in his try at BF although not as bad as yours he was ok turned out it was getting him working that was difficult but he got a summer in work in boots but never got good enough to do more than one day a week unbooted on the road.
I think I understand why now and will have a go next summer I have changed all his diet and we shall see.
Mines a very very good doer so can't be out of work so boots at least gave his feet a break while we kept him slim.
 
So basically you think the BT are trying to ram all this down our throats. I used to think that as well. Until, I looked at responses to posters, myself included. The anti bare group sprout off cruelty and bash the bare people and when they try and shoe examples of working bare horses they get maligned as a cult.

What you don't know is that if you talk to any of these people individually, without attacking, they always say "you can always put the shoes back on". They never say well your an idiot and a failure if your horse can't go bare.

The whole thing for me is that I do have to look at their overall health much more closely which I don't think is a bad thing. And I'm not suggesting people who shoe don't. It's very possible I may put shoes on again at some stage. I don't know. For now it's working. It's just that simple.

I mean really look around at the comments of people who shoe. Do you really think these people deserve nice comments back? You all feel you're being attacked and yet you come out attacking. I just find that strange. I was the same. Once I stopped attacking I started learning a bit. That's all.

Terri
 
Maisie06 don't read the threads that solves the issue.
If you are happy with your horse that fine.
However and I don't include you in this group the people who I don't understand are the ones that say it's cruel to work your horse unshod on the road which is where we started this epic.
My horse is working BF I am amazed by what he's doing shortly he will try hunting and I suspect the issue will be his head not his feet I object to being told its cruel my people who have not seen a BF horse doing well
I dont say all shoeing is bad based on the of the truly ghastly shoeing I see because that would be silly.
 
Ludoctro said:
Masie06 have to agree with you
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Yes but Ludoctro did you not say that horses that go on roads needed shoes and it was not fair to expect them to do so Bf in an earlier post.
So why is it ok for you to make that sweeping statement from 'your ' side but Bf are accused of being bible bashes and that's ok ?
 
This is crackers! From my own experience the BT were helpful and supportive when I had problems with my horse and not one of them made me feel like an idiot for having shod him over the years.

Whilst I do feel there is something in the statement that most horses can go barefoot and it's the owners who can't I still respect that as being the owner's decision, as I think do most of the BT.

Keeping a barefoot horse happy healthy and working comfortably is hard on the owner at first and I wouldn't blame anyone struggling for time with their horse for not wanting to go that way. I'm hardly a barefoot advertiser since I only tried it after shoeing left my horse with navicular and collateral ligament damage.

If we all had a track system like Nic at Rockley and endless time to do roadwork on our horses then yes I think most would cope better than we think but the reality is that we aren't all in that situation and we're all doing the best we can, so why the antagonism on anyone's part?
 
Antagonism can only come about when there is a protagonist. I think the shod "camp" feel antagonised by the BFT.

Yet, all the BFT do is state fairly simple facts and do not perceive people who shoe as a threat or obstacle so therefore do not try and antagonise. BFT are false protagonists and are seen as a protagonists only by those who FEEL antagonised by the words used. It's a non issue until someone feels threatened by the beliefs.

There is no sense in antagonising because BFT's see shoes as useful and it is a use-as-needed tool rather than a must. Not even I would continue to work a horse barefoot if I could not make it sound without. But I don't see shoes as a "failure" as some people from the shod camp seem to think we think. We see barefoot as the norm and shoes as a tool.

They are fairly simple statements that can be construed to take on any meaning anyone likes. A "pro" barefoot would not see that as antagonistic, but someone who puts themselves on the antagonised side, will feel the need to defend themselves as is what is happening.

It's perfectly natural so we should just carry on and satisfy ourselves. Everyone loves a "goodie & baddie" story... the colateral damage here is, sadly, the innocent horse.

:D
 
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tallyho! said:
Antagonism can only come about when there is a protagonist. I think the shod "camp" feel antagonised by the BFT.

Yet, all the BFT do is state fairly simple facts and do not perceive people who shoe as a threat or obstacle so therefore do not try and antagonise. BFT are false protagonists and are seen as a protagonists only by those who FEEL antagonised by the words used. It's a non issue until someone feels threatened by the beliefs.

There is no sense in antagonising because BFT's see shoes as useful and it is a use-as-needed tool rather than a must. Not even I would continue to work a horse barefoot if I could not make it sound without. But I don't see shoes as a "failure" as some people from the shod camp seem to think we think. We see barefoot as the norm and shoes as a tool.

They are fairly simple statements that can be construed to take on any meaning anyone likes. A "pro" barefoot would not see that as antagonistic, but someone who puts themselves on the antagonised side, will feel the need to defend themselves as is what is happening.

It's perfectly natural so we should just carry on and satisfy ourselves. Everyone loves a "goodie & baddie" story... the colateral damage here is, sadly, the innocent horse.

:D
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I think Tallyho has expressed what I think (only far more eloquently!)

If I started a thread titled 'Shoeing cruelty' I think those who shoe would quite rightly come on and castigate me for making such an assumption and yet the bt defend themselves and get labelled as bible bashers.

I have never had 'barefoot' forced on me by anyone, and if I thought it wasn't right for a particular horse I would shoe, as I'm sure the majority who have unshod horses would. There is bound to be the odd individual who is convinced that all shoeing is cruel and can't look beyond that, but surely the same applies to those who label being bf as cruel. :confused:
 
Who are the Barefoot Taliban? I have a few regular helpful and knowledgeable names in my head, but curious about this.
I think some members are getting rattled by the number of threads springing up on this forum asking this group of people for advice about hoof balance, barefoot feeding etc. To me that's a testament to the quality of help they give. They are pretty patient as well, calmly repeating the same information over and over again on multiple threads. The only time I've seen these "regulars" get irritable is when they are attacked, sometimes by the person who asked for advice and doesn't like the answers. However, I'd be interested to see a link to anyone of the BT telling someone that they are cruel to shoe their horse.
I've also noticed some consistency in what the BT say:
If a horse has "bad feet" (shod or unshod) there is a reason. In the majority of cases the problems can be addressed by some change of management.
Not all horse owners have the time, facilities or inclination to get into the changes of management, and that's their choice.
A horse should never be left in pain.
There may be times when it's best to put shoes on. If the aim is for barefoot that might be temporary.
They will challenge ignorant statements along the lines of "all horses that do regular roadwork will have to wear shoes", but I've not seen them get rude or insulting about it.
Every owner is entitled to decide whether their horse wears shoes or not, as long as they don't cause suffering.
Personally I can't see the harm in some horse owners choosing to discuss a particular aspect of horsemanship, be that eventing, grooming or hoofcare. So why do we still get these regular threads that go on the attack about horses that don't wear shoes? How pointless.
 
It's odd that people here are saying the barefoot supporters are the ones being opinionated and aggressive when the very title of this thread appears to be a deliberate attack on them. :confused:
 
I'd like to address this issue of genetics a little bit. You often hear Shoeing Luddites grasping at this as another reason why barefoot won't work with 'their' horse. His feet have been ruined by years of injudicious breeding.
Complete rubbish yet again. Breeding is probably worse now than it ever was in the past, when people were actually breeding horses for a proper job, rather than a hobby or sport.

People talk about mustang and brumby horses as though they can trace their origins back to their wild ancestors. Well, they can't. Both American mustang and Australian brumbys are feral horses derived from lost and escaped domestic horses in the last few hundred years, there were less than 200 horses in the whole of Australia in 1800.
The success of the Australian feral horse, many of whom have some TB in them give the lie to the Genetic excuse for shoeing.
 
DragonSlayer said:
Then don't.

What gets me from some people who go barefoot is they will not accept that it does not suit all horses. Some of mine are shod, some are not. I don't give a flying fig what some people think of what I do, my horses, my choices.

Your posts suggest that those people who are like me are perhaps blinkered. That is not the case. There is no wonder arguments rage over this subject when people cannot accept choices of others that quite frankly have **** all to do with anyone else.

I am not an idiot, I am an educated professional. I don't care that it's not in the equine world, but I like to think that I can make informed choices over what I do.
Click to expand...

Alyth said:
ROTFLMAO!!! I am pleased you are happy with your choices.....it's simply that you haven't considered any alternatives yet, if you have looked at the possibilities you haven't yet understood them. Or you believe the various lines that have been said for many many years. That's fine. However "professional" you are - your knowledge is in that area, not the area of barefoot horses.....that's fine!! Your horses, your choices. I sincerely hope you never have major decisions to make that is about their hoof health!! As has been said many times - all horses can go barefoot - not all owners can!! Good luck.
Click to expand...

Here's a perfect example of the antagonism on the barefoot side. The constant accusation that people who shoe their horses are just incapable of or unwilling to understand going barefoot properly and are too incompetent or lazy to do it so need to put shoes on. If that isn't antagonism I don't know what is!

tallyho! said:
Antagonism can only come about when there is a protagonist. I think the shod "camp" feel antagonised by the BFT.

Yet, all the BFT do is state fairly simple facts and do not perceive people who shoe as a threat or obstacle so therefore do not try and antagonise. BFT are false protagonists and are seen as a protagonists only by those who FEEL antagonised by the words used. It's a non issue until someone feels threatened by the beliefs.

There is no sense in antagonising because BFT's see shoes as useful and it is a use-as-needed tool rather than a must. Not even I would continue to work a horse barefoot if I could not make it sound without. But I don't see shoes as a "failure" as some people from the shod camp seem to think we think. We see barefoot as the norm and shoes as a tool.
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This approach is how the BFT have gained support, but I still think there's a 50:50 split within the BFT between those who like to tell people who shoe how unenlightened they are and those who respect their (perhaps very) informed choices.
 
Flame_ said:
Here's a perfect example of the antagonism on the barefoot side. The constant accusation that people who shoe their horses are just incapable of or unwilling to understand going barefoot properly and are too incompetent or lazy to do it so need to put shoes on. If that isn't antagonism I don't know what is!



This approach is how the BFT have gained support, but I still think there's a 50:50 split within the BFT between those who like to tell people who shoe how unenlightened they are and those who respect their (perhaps very) informed choices.
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But what about respect for my VERY imformed choice to have 3 out 4 horses BF the start of original post showed no respect for my choices those with BF horses have been told that our horses can't be sound on the road and we are cruel during this thread .
I don't like the way some Pro BF posters express themselves but it goes both ways you know.
If I said that someone who shod their horse was cruel there would be an outcry but it's ok for the pro shoeing lobby to say that.
 
This is a real interesting thread...
and spot on haha
Im not against barefoot, im not against shoes.
Im for what works for each individual horse- however each horse should be treated by a QUALIFIED FARRIER.
I wonder how many barefooties are aware that currently there are massive movements going on amongst the BHS/farriers guild/welfare groups to get barefoot trimming covered under the same legislation as other alternative treatments. When it is passes, it will be ILLEGAL for anyone to treat a horse (including their own) without the permission of their vet, and a full professional qualification. This is the same legislation which covers physiotherapy and chiropractic etc.
 
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