Barefoot diet - can it be used for shod horses?

cptrayes said:
Question away, what can we help you with? Or what can you teach us that we need to know?

"The profession" has good and bad members, as do all professions. It is not bashing the profession to quote examples of poor work or lack of knowledge. I'm not telling you to stop telling me how much you rate your farrier. Lucky you. But I'd love people like you to get off my back if I have not been so lucky, and if I continue to see people who are not so lucky.

There are loads of great farriers who know what hard working barefoot horses need, but at the moment it's in spite of their apprentice training, not because of it. The WCF and the FRC need to pull their fingers out.
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Well I am glad to see you acknowledge that there ARE great farriers, at one time all you would read on barefoot threads was how awful they are, well that and some nutritional advice with no basis in science, some of it verging on the dangerous.
 
Amaranta said:
Well I am glad to see you acknowledge that there ARE great farriers, at one time all you would read on barefoot threads was how awful they are, well that and some nutritional advice with no basis in science, some of it verging on the dangerous.
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It's not new for me to say that there are good farriers Amaranta, and any other impression you have is simply because you have not read what I have written on other threads.

There is good and bad in all professions.

The problem with the farriery profession is that too many (not all) are being let down by their training and they do not understand what barefoot horses can do. That leads them to tell too many owners (not all owners) that their horses cannot manage without shoes when they can.

I wish to goodness the FRC and the WCF would put this right so that all horse owners would know exactly which kind of farrier they had.
 
Amaranta said:
Yes she can and should be able to without being jumped on from a great height by those who worship
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I would imagine that you would judge me as one of the posters that 'jumped on her from a great height' as I had the audacity to question if she was just as rude IRL?

Just to clear up a point here if you don't mind? I am neither a follower or a worshipper of ANY person on this forum or of their opinions. I respect some, even when their opinions might differ from mine, IF I feel they are basing their beliefs and views on an honest and well thought out area that they might feel strongly about.

I reserve the right to my own opinion and my right to state that opinion...so to clarify, it is MY opinion that Hho HhO Hho is being deliberately inflammatory and provocative for her own puerile entertainment and it actually has very little to do with the barefoot versus shod debate.

Please do not assume that any opinion stated by myself, that does not tally with yours, must be coming from some sort of slavish devotee of a certain train of thought and belief. My comment was in relation to the posters blatantly rude and trouble making post.

Thank you for reading.
 
I used to use a BF trimmer until my mare needed shoes, so Im not anti farrier or anti trimmer btw!.

However, just a thought and a little OT. When it is suggested that farriers tell the owners that the horse needs shoes in spring because of the 'hard ground' it might just be that the farrier dosent want to blind the owner with science and rather say a term that is more easier to understand ???.

Maybe some of us dont ask our farriers for a more detailed explantion enough, because many of them (apart from the odd grumpy one) should and would be happy to share their scientific knowledge, surely?

Eg. Warfarin "it thins the blood" This is what most people would refer to this drug's action, as it simplifies it.

But it actually an anti-coagulant that prevents blood from clotting and dosent actually 'thin' the blood at all.

What im saying is that not all of us owners want or ask for the scientific reasoning for their horse's sore-footedness, but this dosent mean that their farrier or trimmer may I add, does not have the knowledge to answer a question regarding the horse's feet in greater detail, if asked?

Hope that makes sense.
 
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MissMistletoe said:
I used to use a BF trimmer until my mare needed shoes, so Im not anti farrier or anti trimmer btw!.

However, just a thought and a little OT. When it is suggested that farriers tell the owners that the horse needs shoes in spring because of the 'hard ground' it might just be that the farrier dosent want to blind the owner with science and rather say a term that is more easier to understand ???.

Maybe some of us dont ask our farriers for a more detailed explantion enough, because many of them (apart from the odd grumpy one) should and would be happy to share their scientific knowledge, surely?

Eg. Warfarin "it thins the blood" This is what most people would refer to this drug's action as.

But it actually an anti-coagulant that prevents blood from clotting and dosent actually 'thin' the blood at all.

What im saying is that not all of us owners want or ask for the scientific reasoning for their horse's sore-footedness, but this dosent mean that their farrier or trimmer may I add, does not have the knowledge to answer a question regarding the horse's feet in greater detail, if asked?

Hope that makes sense.
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LIKE

Warfarin also makes big rats! ;) Thats in simple terms again :P
 
JingleTingle said:
I would imagine that you would judge me as one of the posters that 'jumped on her from a great height' as I had the audacity to question if she was just as rude IRL?

Just to clear up a point here if you don't mind? I am neither a follower or a worshipper of ANY person on this forum or of their opinions. I respect some, even when their opinions might differ from mine, IF I feel they are basing their beliefs and views on an honest and well thought out area that they might feel strongly about.

I reserve the right to my own opinion and my right to state that opinion...so to clarify, it is MY opinion that Hho HhO Hho is being deliberately inflammatory and provocative for her own puerile entertainment and it actually has very little to do with the barefoot versus shod debate.

Please do not assume that any opinion stated by myself, that does not tally with yours, must be coming from some sort of slavish devotee of a certain train of thought and belief. My comment was in relation to the posters blatantly rude and trouble making post.

Thank you for reading.
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That's fine, you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am mine.

I did not think HHH was being puerile - you did, we must agree to differ.
 
Amaranta said:
Funnily enough mine did it too, kind of ruins the argument that they know nothing but shoeing that some would have us believe :)
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fwiw mine didn't and he can't be more than 30! probably younger than me tbh. When I spoke to him about rehabbing mine without shoes he suggested he didn't really know enough about it but is very interested in what we have been doing (still shoes the other horse) despite having got grief from some local barefoot taliban who I'm not involved with :p

I would also hate for those with experience of bf on this forum to stop posting about it, they are the reason I have a sound, not retired pony.
 
MissMistletoe said:
However, just a thought and a little OT. When it is suggested that farriers tell the owners that the horse needs shoes in spring because of the 'hard ground' it might just be that the farrier dosent want to blind the owner with science and rather say a term that is more easier to understand ???.
.
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you have a good point, but I don't think that they say it because "hard ground" is easier to understand, they say it because they believe it. Unfortunately, it's incorrect in many horses' cases. And there is a danger in believing that it is the hard ground when in fact it's the grass, because if it's the grass then the horse is in danger of getting full scale laminitis, the footiness being the first sign. And even if they don't get laminitis, which most won't, many still have shoes on for no good reason.

I think it is great for professionals to use terms that owners understand easily, but in this case I think they genuinely believe it. And because they believe it, many horses are shod every spring when what they need is better control of how much grass they are eating, or when (overnight grass is lower in sugar than daytime grass).
 
MissMistletoe said:
badgermyers said:
LIKE

Warfarin also makes big rats! ;) Thats in simple terms again :P[/QUOTE

Dammit, my BNF obviously needs updating now

Must tell my patients of potential pest risk!!!!!!!
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haha Was a good rat poison till ratties mutated and became resistant! Mutation also made them bigger ;) I am sure your patients would be thrilled to know you are giving them rat poison to treat their thrombosis :P (theres me assuming that what they are taking it for)
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I'm sure that when I started reading this thread it was about whether a barefoot diet could be used for a shod horse......get to the end and I'm reading about big rats filled with warfarin......how the hell did that happen?
Think I'll just go to another thread as once again it's turning into an "us and them" situation....
 
ester said:
fwiw mine didn't and he can't be more than 30! probably younger than me tbh. When I spoke to him about rehabbing mine without shoes he suggested he didn't really know enough about it but is very interested in what we have been doing (still shoes the other horse) despite having got grief from some local barefoot taliban who I'm not involved with :p

I would also hate for those with experience of bf on this forum to stop posting about it, they are the reason I have a sound, not retired pony.
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At least he admitted it and was willing to learn, this has got to be a good thing.

FWIW, I am sure that there have been horses that have been helped by being bf, I am equally sure that there are horses whose lives have been enhanced by shoeing.

One size does not fit all and I think that people SHOULD be able to question things, especially those written on an internet forum as fact, I agree that people should also be able to post their experiences good or bad.
 
Warfarin?
My dad had it for strokes. My OH has it for his fake heart valve. Is he going to swell up and get huge :eek: ?
 
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cptrayes said:
My dad had it for strokes. My OH has it for his fake heart valve.
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Yes just had a look at its uses and its used for quite a few things! We havnt covered it in pharmacology or at least not yet

and no he wont get huge :( Sadly it only seems to be an issue in ratties. They dont swell huge either (that would be awesome!) I think their genes mutate and pass down generations? *goes to do more research*
 
Amaranta said:
I think that people SHOULD be able to question things, especially those written on an internet forum as fact,
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They can. They do.

No advice or information written on an internet forum by anyone is anything but an opinion unless it is backed up with a complete reference.
 
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badgermyers said:
Yes just had a look at its uses and its used for quite a few things! We havnt covered it in pharmacology or at least not yet

and no he wont get huge :( Sadly it only seems to be an issue in ratties. They dont swell huge either (that would be awesome!) I think their genes mutate and pass down generations? *goes to do more research*
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Oooh. He's very resistant to it already. He has to eat fish all the time and avoid muesli to keep his INR level up. Are you sure he isn't mutating? When you've covered it in pharma, can you let me know, I'm worried now :D ?
 
cptrayes said:
Oooh. He's very resistant to it already. He has to eat fish all the time and avoid muesli to keep his INR level up. Are you sure he isn't mutating? When you've covered it in pharma, can you let me know, I'm worried now :D ?
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He wont mutate :D If it does you will have a super dad! I somehow dont think we will cover it we seem to only do equine drugs! :O
 
ester said:
badgermyers said:
you sure? I think one of the mechanisms is a faster metabolism which would potentially make them smaller, and the other is a receptor binding thing not sure how either makes them bigger :)
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Its not the drug that makes them bigger. When the rats genetics mutate causing resistance the mutation of that gene also causes the rats to become bigger? So its not the direct effect of the drug. At least thats what my biochem lecturer told me ;)
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My patients take warfarin if high risk of strokes, heart attacks or emboli.

CPT, that's pretty bad that it seems farriers do not know about high sugars/spring grass and footiness. Hopefully many of them do know this though and the knowledge just isnt getting over to the owner on the end of the leadrope.

Listening to the half a dozen or so visiting farriers on my yard, most of them want to talk about other non-horsey things to be honest! But i guess if us owners dont ask these things.........

I cant imagine my farrier talking about copper and zinc and the benefits of forage analysis, but it dosent mean he dosent know (I hope!).
 
KristmasKat said:
No if you feed a barefoot diet to a shod horse its feet will explode :D


ROFPMSL


What a very odd question.

Seriously, it is a diet suitable for barefoot horses not a diet only for barefoot horses, it is based on good feeding principles so suitable for any horse. Some feed companies are promoting low sugar high fibre now too.
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IMO, before anyone buys a horse they should at least learn the basics about feeding a horse.
 
MissMistletoe said:
CPT, that's pretty bad that it seems farriers do not know about high sugars/spring grass and footiness. Hopefully many of them do know this though and the knowledge just isnt getting over to the owner on the end of the leadrope.

.
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It isn't that they don't know about spring grass and sugar. It's that they see a barefoot horse that the owner says has gone a bit footie since they started working it more since the lighter nights arrived, and they don't realise that one of the first signs of impending or low grade laminitis is slight sole sensitivity, so they shoe.

And miraculously, the footiness disappears, so the were right, weren't they? If the horse had had its grass intake restricted instead, the chances would be pretty good that the shoes were never needed.

I've seen it particularly in my own and my friend's three or four year olds. We start work with them and as the work builds up, they go footie, so in the past we shod them.

Now we realise that the reason that we are increasing their work is because they are nearly full grown. And with that their metabolic rate has dropped and they need less food and they go footie more easily on too much grass. So instead of shoeing like we used to, we keep them off the grass during the daytime when the sugars are highest.

One of the other problems, and what I think may have happened to the horse that started the arguments off, is that farriers who have not seen hardworking barefoot feet don't realise how incredibly short they look. They get concerned by the lack of foot and tell the owner that the horse needs shoes even though it is perfectly sound. That's why I asked earlier "what did the horse say?"
 
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