Barefoot diet - can it be used for shod horses?
- Thread starter djlynwood
- Start date
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I would But errr we drifted apart , I could hardly keep my face straight at that little pearl of wisdom.
Barefoot Endurance
Well-Known Member
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Ah yes!I wonder how many he gets to believe that though!
If I had been quick enough I would have said so its all your fault then.
djlynwood
Well-Known Member
Wow, never had a thread longer than two pages before!
I do find this whole diet subject interesting. I am a late starter riding when I was 31. Im 38 now and got my first horse in March 2010.
I have thoroughly resarched the different feeds and dispite what other more experienced horse people told me I have choosen this diet.
I only questioned it here as I have recently had some people on the yard telling me that I need to feed mixes and nuts as it seems bland what Im feeding. Someone even said to feed a mix as it has peas in it! Couldnt tell me what benefit that was but that it was more interesting.
Im now quite satisfied that what Im feeding is good. I may add some brewers yeast and magnox.
I was interested to read about the footiness when shoes are removed. I did try going without back shoes but that didnt last long. We do quite a lot of roadwork but reading a comment on here, it seems that tarmac is best for trimming the hooves down.
My horse is a little flat footed so was told that I will always need shoes. Does anyone have flat footed horse and shoeless? She also gets windgalls and Im wondering if diet and eventually shoeless will help.
Im really interested to hear about people who compete with barefoot horses. I was very surprised to read that there is someone here who has competed BE Novice that way. I was told that if Im jumping I need shoes.
This thread has certainly got me thinking and has planted a seed about eventually going bearfoot.
I do find this whole diet subject interesting. I am a late starter riding when I was 31. Im 38 now and got my first horse in March 2010.
I have thoroughly resarched the different feeds and dispite what other more experienced horse people told me I have choosen this diet.
I only questioned it here as I have recently had some people on the yard telling me that I need to feed mixes and nuts as it seems bland what Im feeding. Someone even said to feed a mix as it has peas in it! Couldnt tell me what benefit that was but that it was more interesting.
Im now quite satisfied that what Im feeding is good. I may add some brewers yeast and magnox.
I was interested to read about the footiness when shoes are removed. I did try going without back shoes but that didnt last long. We do quite a lot of roadwork but reading a comment on here, it seems that tarmac is best for trimming the hooves down.
My horse is a little flat footed so was told that I will always need shoes. Does anyone have flat footed horse and shoeless? She also gets windgalls and Im wondering if diet and eventually shoeless will help.
Im really interested to hear about people who compete with barefoot horses. I was very surprised to read that there is someone here who has competed BE Novice that way. I was told that if Im jumping I need shoes.
This thread has certainly got me thinking and has planted a seed about eventually going bearfoot.
Shysmum
Well-Known Member
I would recommend a book called "Feet First" by Nic Barker and Sarah Braithwaite. It really explains the nutrition side of things so well, and because of that book, the way I was feeding has changed - Shy is barefoot and hopefully will stay that way. 
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Oh don't worry lass, keep posting. It's just that there have been about a million posts arguing about this it wears thin after a while.
I call my unshod horses barefoot. I just prefer it. To me, unshod just means shoes taken off and the horse is then tired away. Barefoot to me, means they work and live without shoes.
Personal preference, not a statement nor am I imposing my opinions on anyone, just what I like to use
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Farrier is a bit of a dirty word with me tbh. That is based on my experience and I'm not sure why you qualify to judge me based on my experiences?
Do you know what happened? Are you familiar with the veterinary notes of my horse?
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
The thing is DJL, that you probably won't have a flat footed horse if you get her diet right. Most flat footedness is not inherited, it's caused by too loose a connection between the foot bones and the hoof wall - think of it as too much stretch in the laminae.
All the flat footed horses that I have had, and you don't get any flatter than this one:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4xRQ_EewtyQ/TjMoVkLo71I/AAAAAAAAAt0/KB-4mdTCuFU/s320/17SEP006.JPG
concave up with diet and work. Once I realised that my land was high in manganese and iron, and that it would prevent the uptake of copper, and I supplemented additional copper, I saw a completely flat-footed horse concave up in days, and stay that way until I had to have him put down years later.
I believe that the majority of flat footedness is made, not born.
Skippys Mum
Well-Known Member
As a slight aside - where do you all get your copper licks from?
Amaranta
Well-Known Member
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I think it's a Rockies, SM, but I supplement copper bioplex to make sure that they get the right amount.
Skippys Mum
Well-Known Member
thanks CPT
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Oh grow up!
Why on earth would I be interested enough in you to judge you
But you did judge me. So you must be interested.
djlynwood
Well-Known Member
Thanks CPT for posting the picture of the flat footed hoof.
My mare is no where near as flat as that. Im looking forward to hopefully seeing a difference in my mares feet. I had no idea that the diet could help with flat feet but when you explained it, it makes sense.
My mare is no where near as flat as that. Im looking forward to hopefully seeing a difference in my mares feet. I had no idea that the diet could help with flat feet but when you explained it, it makes sense.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I get so fed up with vets and farriers who say flat feet are congenital. They haven't been congenital on any of the horses that I have had with flat feet or any of the ones that have arrived at Rockley, or any of the horses that my friends have had. They have been entirely diet related and completely fixed by nothing more than a diet change and some sensible work. Though I will admit that in one case the diet change was drastic. The horse simply could not function when allowed to eat anything fresh and green, even mouthfuls grabbed from under a fence line. He hunts and jumps now on his lovely concave feet.
By the way that horse did BE 100 barefoot about nine months after that photo was taken.
By the way that horse did BE 100 barefoot about nine months after that photo was taken.
Ellen Durow
Well-Known Member
I'd be inclined to be advised by your farrier who knows your horse. My horse has been going in front shoes only, for a couple of years with the agreement of my farrier who is a pearl amongst his kind. The arrangement is mainly in the interests of economy but if my farrier advised me that it was in horse's interests to be shod on all 4 feet I'd find the money.
Clava
Well-Known Member
...even good farriers don't always think to suggest the next step which is to take the fronts off so the status quo remains.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
And if I'd listened to the farriers who advised about my horses then in the last seven years four of them would be paddock ornaments or dead.
In my opinion, a sound horse does not need shoes on unless the owner needs them for studs or confidence.
If we listened to the horses more there would be fewer lame ones.
On Monday, weather permitting, I am going to the local farm ride to jump a few small things on a horse who has been lame for the last four years. He's been in my care for a couple of months. For the last three weeks he's been sound and in full work, with the exception of jumping. He's got some wonky looking feet on the ends of his legs now, but they are what he needs. Horses are more capable than most of us realise of creating the dynamic foot that the leg above it needs at the time.
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JingleTingle
Well-Known Member
Im finding the posts about flat footed horse's developing concavity reassuring, as I am not having a lot of success so far with this despite her shoes being off for 6 weeks but the only thing I cant get right is enough exercise for her and I know think I need to add some copper to her diet.
Bizarrely though her backs have good concavity and always have had...but the fronts are pancakes. Why would this be do you think, I cant see how diet and exercise would enter into it if only 2 feet are flat?
Bizarrely though her backs have good concavity and always have had...but the fronts are pancakes. Why would this be do you think, I cant see how diet and exercise would enter into it if only 2 feet are flat?
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Im finding the posts about flat footed horse's developing concavity reassuring, as I am not having a lot of success so far with this despite her shoes being off for 6 weeks but the only thing I cant get right is enough exercise for her and I know think I need to add some copper to her diet.
Bizarrely though her backs have good concavity and always have had...but the fronts are pancakes. Why would this be do you think, I cant see how diet and exercise would enter into it if only 2 feet are flat?
Six weeks may not be long enough yet and exercise is vital to develop the digital cushion so that the pedal bone can sit on top of it at a higher level. more concave hinds is normal, they are often more concave anyway because they are more upright and generally a little smaller than the fronts. The theory is that they work harder and therefore keep their form better. The fronts also carry more weight, so are pushed outwards and down.
I would either add copper or go for Pro Hoof and work hard on the exercise and see what changes you get.
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Ellen Durow
Well-Known Member
There are a few bad farriers around (like the local one who hits nervous horses over the head with a rasp making matters worse!!!) but sadly the many good ones are getting a lot of unnecessary and inaccurate stick from what someone else on this thread has called "the barefoot taliban".Why do you think the farrier would have reshod the horse, if it were not required? For fun? To earn an extra few quid?
Does nobody have any trust or respect for their farriers any more?
Surely it isn't a case of which is better overall - barefoot or shod - but which is better for the individual horse.
My farrier is a star. He answers questions, no matter how odd and will discuss the management of the horse's feet without belittling the owner's views;he's patient with nervous horses (who soon learn not to be under his kind influence); is careful in his work and I have never had cause to complain about him. My horse who, when I got him, was terrified of the farrier due to former ill-treatment, loves him to bits and even dozes off while being done. It speaks volumes that signing up with him is dependent on "deadmen's shoes" as his list is permanently full.
Clava
Well-Known Member
Im finding the posts about flat footed horse's developing concavity reassuring, as I am not having a lot of success so far with this despite her shoes being off for 6 weeks but the only thing I cant get right is enough exercise for her and I know think I need to add some copper to her diet.
Bizarrely though her backs have good concavity and always have had...but the fronts are pancakes. Why would this be do you think, I cant see how diet and exercise would enter into it if only 2 feet are flat?
My haflinger has flat front hooves and great concavity in the hinds, but her fronts do improve if I get the diet right but this year that has been really hard with the speed the grass has grown. Brewers yeast seems to help as recently I have run out and she seems to be feeling the difference. My TB has flat feet in summer and great concavity at the moment which will usually continue until Spring.
JingleTingle
Well-Known Member
I have ordered some copper as I have a big supply of other supplements here already that I cant afford to just chuck away as the postage to get them to me was pretty hefty too!
But when I have worked my way through them I think I will go for the Pro Hoof.Thank you again!
samlf
Well-Known Member
My horse has been barefoot for all her life (as far as I am aware) but still came to me with flat front hooves, it was a process over a year of changing diet and cutting various things out until I discovered the 'recipe' for her hoof health. In her case it is minimal grass, and optimum mineral intake (meta balance, pro hoof made no difference), they are now lovely and concave and still improving.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
No they aren't. The BAD ones are getting the stick. The good ones are not.
Their training is getting some stick, but that is flawed and is recorded fact. There are great farriers out there in spite of a flawed syllabus.
Yes of course and the vast majority of BT comments on these threads will agree but for some reason there are people who don't seem able to see them or read them.
Marvellous. If I'd had a farrier like yours I might still be shoeing my horses. I consider myself fortunate that a lame horse and bad advice from two farriers pointed me in the direction of barefoot and I've never needed to shoe a horse since. Other people don't have my facilities or time, or they have horses that would find it very difficult, and so they shoe.
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ester
Not slacking multitasking
F had pretty flat fronts when we started in March but we definitely have some concavity (and a lot more comfort) now. So they can definitely unflatted
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
While we are talking about flat feet, there are flat feet and flat feet.
Some horses, when they have a lot of wear, look as if they develop flat feet. Actually, if you look at the point of the frog there is depth in the groove in which the frog sits. That foot isn't really "flat" in the sense that the pedal bone is low in the foot. It's just got a phenomenally thick sole which has worn down level. You can't change these feet with diet, and indeed you do not need to.
Real "flat" feet are feet where the pedal bone is sitting too close to the ground, and that can be seen by a lack of depth in the collateral grooves at the sides of the frogs, and no or almost no depth at all at the point of the frog. Those horses are likely to be footie and do need a diet change (or treatment for metabolic disease, since Cushings, IR, EMS and EPSM can do this to feet).
Some horses, when they have a lot of wear, look as if they develop flat feet. Actually, if you look at the point of the frog there is depth in the groove in which the frog sits. That foot isn't really "flat" in the sense that the pedal bone is low in the foot. It's just got a phenomenally thick sole which has worn down level. You can't change these feet with diet, and indeed you do not need to.
Real "flat" feet are feet where the pedal bone is sitting too close to the ground, and that can be seen by a lack of depth in the collateral grooves at the sides of the frogs, and no or almost no depth at all at the point of the frog. Those horses are likely to be footie and do need a diet change (or treatment for metabolic disease, since Cushings, IR, EMS and EPSM can do this to feet).
djlynwood
Well-Known Member
How interesting CPT. Looking at it that way, I dont think that my mare has flat feet then. They do spread out a bit when she is due to be shod and look quite big but there is a definate groove that the frog sits in.
Farrier is due next week so I will pick his brains.
I never had the intention of going barefoot and I dont know if I will but Im so glad I asked the question as I have found out so much. Either way, whatever I decide at least I will be much more informed.
Farrier is due next week so I will pick his brains.
I never had the intention of going barefoot and I dont know if I will but Im so glad I asked the question as I have found out so much. Either way, whatever I decide at least I will be much more informed.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Big feet are also always flatter. The depth does not vary much with the foot size. So a four inch foot with 1/2 inch clearance looks hugely concave. An eight inch foot with 1/2 inch clearance looks almost flat.
One of the things I love about barefoot is how it is reminding people what good feeding is for a horse, and improving foot health for shod and unshod horses. The changes you are making can do nothing but good, shod or not.
One of the things I love about barefoot is how it is reminding people what good feeding is for a horse, and improving foot health for shod and unshod horses. The changes you are making can do nothing but good, shod or not.