BE Entry/Start Fee Disparity

Gamebird

Gamebird

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I'm on a roll tonight...

I've been looking at entry and start fees for early-season Nov classes and found that they vary widely.

The cheapest I've found are Portman, Solihull and Burgie - £68.21 with a £10 start fee ie. £78.21 in total.

The most expensive are Withington, Weston and Belton - £81.85 with, respectively, £25, £22 and £20 start fees ie. £106.85, £103.85 and £101.85.

That's up to a £28.64 difference depending on where you choose to run :eek: (two bags of feed, entry to two BS classes or half a set of shoes depending on how you look at it!).

I know Belton's a 'destination' event at Novice but is a run at Withington really worth nearly £30 more than a run at Portman?

Will people be picking and choosing where to run on this basis? I can only compete on certain weekends so don't often have the luxury of choosing where I go but bearing in mind that Novice horses run relatively frequently compared to, say, Adv horses it's going to be a very expensive season :(.

Disclaimer - exceptional circumstances in 2012, I know, impacting on 2013, yes; but it's the disparity that I find most odd, rather than the out-and-out cost.
 
Truthfully? Yes, I think Withington is worth that much more than Portman, and I speak as a Portman fan. I think they are hoping people will indeed choose on this basis, and thus solve some of the balloting problems of places like Withington which, even though ultimately it cancelled, had balloted hundreds and hundreds of entries before that.
 
I agree that the disparity is odd, but to be honest it wont make a hell of a lot of a difference for Mini TX's season. You see, we have a plan, yes a plan (well a plan A, B, C etc, you know what horses are like), and she will need to run certain events if she wants to finish the season at Weston Park.

Also, we are lucky, sponsor pays for the entries...........
 
Is it only at Nov level that this range of disparity happens?...

tbh (cynical hat on) the start fee has always seemed like a 'stealth fee' to me, so not surprising events who see fit to request the highest rate do :(
 
It's the same down here. I'm looking at 100 prices rather than Novice but again there is a big difference. Tweseldown is £70.96 entry and a £15 start fee. Munstead £59.14 and £15 start fee again. £10 might not seem like a big difference but in old money thats a start fee, or half the diesel there. Is a run at tweseldown worth more than Munstead...i'm not sure but i am sure it's not worth £10 more. It probably won't decide where i run for the most part because i have limited times i can event but it'll be interesting to see if it does overall.

Don't get me started on start fees. I am still a tad bitter about my £6 start fee for JAS today. Would love to know what it paid for!
 
No idea Chloe, it's the level that I'm most likely to have most runs at so the one my eye was naturally drawn to.

I haven't been to either TD, so that's an interesting comment. In fact, of those listed, I've only been to Belton and Burgie. I think Portman runs mid-week, which could explain a bit, but I'm sure there are plenty of pro's down that way to fill the entries and Solihull (one of the cheap ones) is a weekend run, so it doesn't necessarily follow.

TheoryXI - you've got a lot of boxes to tick I guess and have to follow a pretty well-trodden path to get where you want to go.
 
Have to admit it grates on me too. For example Moreton charge highest level entry fee and give lowest level prize money and they have stated they will no longer be changing their course, so quite frankly once you've been round it a couple of times you might as well have a challenge and go somewhere else.
Aldon are charging lower level entry and give higher level prize money.
I am not going to event at BE this year, mainly due to lack of horse power but also down to cost.
We are lucky as we have loads of unaff over good BE courses.
 
Entry fee disparity is the dreaded VAT £68.21 plus 20% VAT £81.85.

If you are VAT registered you can reclaim the VAT. Suspect not many competitors will be VAT registered.

Start fees are set by BE for BE 80 90 100 between £0 and £17
Novice between £0 and £22.

See BE rule book on line for the other classes.
 
Good lord, I haven't looked at the schedules since I stopped eventing in 2009... stopped to save some cash and did hope to return eventually but I can't save fast enough to keep up with the fees! Good job I'm finally enjoying this dressage malarkey ;)
 
AutumnRose said:
It's the same down here. I'm looking at 100 prices rather than Novice but again there is a big difference. Tweseldown is £70.96 entry and a £15 start fee. Munstead £59.14 and £15 start fee again. £10 might not seem like a big difference but in old money thats a start fee, or half the diesel there. Is a run at tweseldown worth more than Munstead...i'm not sure but i am sure it's not worth £10 more. It probably won't decide where i run for the most part because i have limited times i can event but it'll be interesting to see if it does overall.

Don't get me started on start fees. I am still a tad bitter about my £6 start fee for JAS today. Would love to know what it paid for!
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Dreaded VAT is the answer there and with most events where the entry fees are different as the entry fee is fixed by BE and with 100 it can change as to whether there is prize money or not
 
Ah. So entry fees are sometimes VATable and other times not? Does that depend on whether the people running the event are a business or an organisation?

As an amateur who can't claim VAT back it does make quite a difference to the entry fees. If you were VAT-registered and were claiming it back I guess that would make the entry fees the same wherever you went?

So it's just the difference in the start fee (which would seem to be £10 - £25) that is a true variable then?
 
Gamebird said:
Ah. So entry fees are sometimes VATable and other times not? Does that depend on whether the people running the event are a business or an organisation?

So it's just the difference in the start fee (which would seem to be £10 - £25) that is a true variable then?
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Yes if the business running is is VAT registered they have no option but to charge VAT, but they can choose where to pitch the start fee (bearing in mind that they will have to give sonme of it to the VAT man)
 
LCH611 said:
Yes if the business running is is VAT registered they have no option but to charge VAT, but they can choose where to pitch the start fee (bearing in mind that they will have to give some of it to the VAT man)
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I always think that because of their INSISTENCE that the start fee is in cash, it goes straight into someones' pocket!
 
Gamebird said:
Ah. So entry fees are sometimes VATable and other times not? Does that depend on whether the people running the event are a business or an organisation?

As an amateur who can't claim VAT back it does make quite a difference to the entry fees. If you were VAT-registered and were claiming it back I guess that would make the entry fees the same wherever you went?

So it's just the difference in the start fee (which would seem to be £10 - £25) that is a true variable then?
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That is the reason the insurance aspect is now split out! When it was first introduced it included in the entry fee.However on 2 or 3 occassions I had to point out to BE that insurance premiums do not incur VAT but if included in an entry fee becomes a service which is VAT chargeable.
I am going to approach BE in the near future and suggest they try and get the Racehorse owners VAT scheme extended to all horse sports.This would then mean that any rider as long as they had a bonafide Sponsorship deal in place can become VAT registered so able to recover input VAT.
 
I can't quote the comment above but SprueRI you clearly don't run a business! There is no way could pocket that much money when there is so much paper trail!

For what it's worth I don't plan to event anymore. Entry fees have gone up this year and my salary has not. Hopefully going to join BD instead.
 
I noticed the price differences the other night when flicking through the BE mag - it's not just novice level, its all levels.

Interestingly the abandonment premium will make a difference between events this year too - those that have cancelled in the past will have a larger cost added on to their fees.

It might only be a couple of pounds between each event, but still, it's a cost we didn't have to account for in years past.
 
Well I have looked at the differences and when I have 2 events on the same day I could travel to I have considered the cheaper one and will do that if mileage is similar. I am thinking of Munstead instead of great witchingham fOr this reason.
 
SpruceRI said:
I always think that because of their INSISTENCE that the start fee is in cash, it goes straight into someones' pocket!
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As others have said there is no way you can pocket that amount of money when there is a clear audit trail, and although we don't insist on cash, we greatly prefer it as it is a real nuisance trying to chase a bounced cheque when you don't have any contact details for them & it isn't clear which horse(s) the start fee relates to!
 
SpruceRI said:
I always think that because of their INSISTENCE that the start fee is in cash, it goes straight into someones' pocket!
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if i was looking for a way to make money, running events would not be the place to start. thank you for the generous assumption that we just stuff our pockets full of cash - it says more about you than you might think.

different courses have different issues to deal with. somewhere surrounded by motorways can fill 3 or 4 days at a time and spread their costs - we however are on the south coast and half our catchment area is in the english channel - and we run at the start of the year (which suits us) but it means we have fewer days and shorter days (daylight) but the costs of setting up the course are the same as if we were running 4 days in the summer. so for the hard of thinking, our costs are the same but our income is less so we cant be as generous.

to answer stilton, our course does usually change but we are no longer changing direction as we used to do from time to time, but part of the route will differ, there will be different jumps at different points setting different challenges. it will come as no surprise that just as competitors have to tighten their belts in a recession, so do organisers - none the less, if one gets bored at one level here, we have 3 others to try.
 
Jeez was going to go on a ticket for a few at the end of the season as I have dressage to concentrate on at the moment but as my mare used to event thought I would do a couple of unaff ode's then a couple of 90's/100 towards the end ready for a full season next year. After seeing the prices might just stick to my ode's on the BE course it's a tight year this year being the last year of uni. Good luck with the season though hopefully join you all next year
 
Entry's has got so expensive, our season has already had to get a re shake as said horse was aiming for Bramham however it needed one more qr so now going to play this season on funds providing plus if said horse runs well it may do something at the end of the year.
 
dingle12 said:
Entry's has got so expensive, our season has already had to get a re shake as said horse was aiming for Bramham however it needed one more qr so now going to play this season on funds providing plus if said horse runs well it may do something at the end of the year.
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In the USA, entering a novice will cost you $575. in part thats because everyone on the ground is being paid. so when you worry about the cost of entry in the UK, be very glad that something like 100 people for every event have got out of bed to work for nothing.
 
NoCollection said:
Actually, that's the price for a one-star including stabling: a normal Novice is more like $165, which is still more than twice the price of the UK. To balance this, their membership is cheaper than BE.
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you may be right, i'm just quoting a fairly well known steward..... either way, that's the way it may have to go so enjoy it while you can.
 
NoCollection said:
Actually, that's the price for a one-star including stabling: a normal Novice is more like $165, which is still more than twice the price of the UK. To balance this, their membership is cheaper than BE.
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at today's exchange rate $165 is £108

a novice run at weston in april will cost you £82+22 start fee = £104 so basically the same as the US?

in the US diesel is about 60p a litre too :)

events are a lot further on average tho I guess

I don't doubt that events are finding it increasingly hard to justify running. I'd be really interested to see the profit and loss account for a BE ode, just to be able to understand where issues lie.
 
Ok BE people please roll your eyeballs upwards with contempt, but what is this start fee all about? I come from doing 10 yrs of BD, and then last year had an exciting season (when it didn't rain) doing unaff ODE and was planning to go BE this year, but I never got asked to pay a start fee. What is it in aid of? The unaff is so easy to enter...you send your £45 or £50 cheque off, look up your times on the 'net, turn up and have a lovely day. BE entries seem to be a minefield! Sorry to be so naive.
 
gelderlander said:
Ok BE people please roll your eyeballs upwards with contempt, but what is this start fee all about? I come from doing 10 yrs of BD, and then last year had an exciting season (when it didn't rain) doing unaff ODE and was planning to go BE this year, but I never got asked to pay a start fee. What is it in aid of? The unaff is so easy to enter...you send your £45 or £50 cheque off, look up your times on the 'net, turn up and have a lovely day. BE entries seem to be a minefield! Sorry to be so naive.
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I don't do BE, but have done unaff and paid a start fee.

My understanding of the start fee is that it is a levy to cover the costs of the event, such as refreshments for stewards/fence judges and to go towards improvements and maintenance of the course.
 
AnShanDan said:
at today's exchange rate $165 is £108

a novice run at weston in april will cost you £82+22 start fee = £104 so basically the same as the US?

in the US diesel is about 60p a litre too :)

events are a lot further on average tho I guess

I don't doubt that events are finding it increasingly hard to justify running. I'd be really interested to see the profit and loss account for a BE ode, just to be able to understand where issues lie.
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i will go and kick my source for feeding me duff information...

to give you a rough guide to the P&L - if you run it tight and don't count your own hours, you'll break even, but like all accounts, the P&L for an event is a snapshot - really you have to look at the whole year, the loss of use of the track for anything else, the machinery you wouldn't have, even on a farm or equestrian property, the loss of income from say 50 acres... in fairness it doesn't stack up.

if you can attract 50k people or more and charge them all entry and charge hundreds of trade stands thousands of pounds, then fine but 95% of events are not in that league.

i would without doubt be better off letting the land do nothing or farming it!
 
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