Beaters and shooters practically trying to kill us?!

[fatpiggy]

Meoow!!!!

Proves my point entirely, cats are always superior.

 

[ycbm]

I don't disagree with you but perhaps some shoots are as ignorant of horses as horse people seem to be of shoots? None of us were there so we don't know how far away anything was, or how long they waited for the OP to pass.

Do you think it's acceptable for 'some shoots' very close to a public road to be unaware that beaters waving bags on sticks, followed by mass gunshot, might scare horses? I'd call that negligence, myself.

 

[wizbel]

I actually had a similar experience myself recently. I'm in a shooting heavy area. I generally avoid hacking out on Saturdays because of it.
However a couple of weeks ago I knew the neighbouring estate wasn't shooting so I went out only to get caught up in a drive for another farm shoot. They've never had shoots before so wasn't expecting it! Suffice to say I had a relatively hairy hack home and my mare is very used to shooting!

I've now been in touch with the farmer and found out when their shoots are so I can avoid those days. As much as you might want to report them OP I'm not sure what you can report them for. I would suggest finding out who runs the shoot or who the landowner is and contact them and just find out when their shoot days are. Sometimes we have to take responsibility for ourselves.

 

[Templebar]

Coming back to the original subject at hand, there were wrongs on both sides here in my opinion and by the flags I assume they may have been partridge shooting rather than pheasants, which may mean the drive was well in progress by this point and therefore could not be avoided. The beaters probably too the riders sarcastically and by continuing thought everything was ok, or were not clued up on horses, therefore they should be warned (by the shoot captain), so the shoot captains needs to know and in this instance despite the fright, nothing awful actually happened and so I think to find out who they are and introduce yourself would find yourself in much better favour than reporting to the authorities and them finding out it was you and causing a rift.

To riders (not just the OP but all), educate yourselves with the country you ride in, if there are local hunts/shoots contact them, find out their days and times, don't make yourselves out to be anti even if you are as that will not help you at all, but instead ask that you are informed if they are likely to be in the area and maybe on which land, which may help you both avoid problems with one another. Similar with cycling/running/rally clubs if they use your area. Get in contact with local groups and you are much more likely to find out what is going on and when. Finally do not ride round with your eyes/ears closed don't use headphones so listen to what is going on, if its a shoot or hunting then you will definitely hear them before you see them, then you can change your plans and re route or change speed to avoid problems if necessary.

I'm sorry to hear this happened to you OP and I hope you are your horse get out for a much quieter hack soon.

 

[popsdosh]

Do you think it's acceptable for 'some shoots' very close to a public road to be unaware that beaters waving bags on sticks, followed by mass gunshot, might scare horses? I'd call that negligence, myself.

Hahaha get real!!!! you've made my day!!!!

I look forward to hearing you have been to all your local shoots and educated them and hopefully at the same time they will explain exactly what is happening on a shoot day.
So do you not ride along all the time having in your mind something unexpected may happen it could easily have been the village idiot with a flag and a football rattle and nothing to do with shooting! There would still be nothing you could do to stop it. Is it the shooting or the flag that has really wound you up??

 

[ycbm]

Hahaha get real!!!! youve made my day!!!!

Why is it unreasonable? All drivers are expected to be aware that horses are easy to frighten and told to pass wide and slow ( it's in the highway code) Why do you think it is unreasonable to expect the organisers of a shoot (country people who by definition are animal aware) to have the same knowledge?

Incidentally, if the shoot is running as a commercial business, and there is an accident and someone sues, then one of the first things the lawyers will ask for is the risk assessment of causing injury to other users of the countryside, which would definitely include horse riders.

 

[fburton]

I think it is entirely reasonable.

 

[popsdosh]

Why is it unreasonable? All drivers are expected to be aware that horses are easy to frighten and told to pass wide and slow (I think it's in the highway code?) Why do you think it is unreasonable to expect the organisers of a shoot (country people who by definition are animal aware) to have the same knowledge?

Do you not take any responsibility at all for your horse reacting badly to something that could occur in all sorts of circumstances. Afraid I am of the view if you cant control your horse or confident enough to deal with it if the worse happens you are just as negligent being on the road . You cannot duck your responsibilities by blaming others.
Please just remember the OP dealt with the situation nobody was hurt your making more fuss than they are. I ride as well in the past a lot of youngsters they have to get used to these things. Most issues with horses are caused by the rider not being competent to handle the situation.

 

[ycbm]

Hahaha get real!!!! you've made my day!!!!

I look forward to hearing you have been to all your local shoots and educated them and hopefully at the same time they will explain exactly what is happening on a shoot day.
So do you not ride along all the time having in your mind something unexpected may happen it could easily have been the village idiot with a flag and a football rattle and nothing to do with shooting! There would still be nothing you could do to stop it. Is it the shooting or the flag that has really wound you up??

Nothing has wound me up popsdosh.

But if you can't see the difference between a random village idiot and an organized shoot with licences to hold guns, then this discussion is completely pointless.

 

[Clodagh]

I do think the shoot could have tried harder tbh, but my point is no one was there and they may have held the drive for 5 minutes already while the OP ambled slowly past. (we don't know that!).
As regards shooting people being country people they are but are also used to hunters and such like rather than dressage horses and so on. My OH stewarded on our hunts sponsored ride, many years ago now, and he couldn't believe the sort of horses and riding capabilities that went past. Not knocking them at all but he was used to competent, or at least capable and brave, riders on big shiny hunters.

 

[ycbm]

I think it is entirely reasonable.

Thank you, for one moment there I wondered if I was completely off my trolley

 

[popsdosh]

Nothing has wound me up popsdosh.

But if you can't see the difference between a random village idiot and an organized shoot with licences to hold guns, then this discussion is completely pointless.

So what was the relevance of your comment about the beater with a flag on a stick and saying they were negligent .You obviously have a problem with shooting then! I will point out again do we know how close to the road these people were shooting as I have not seen that mentioned at all ,just because somebody is stood next to a road with a gun does not mean they fired it! I carry a rifle in my pick up but I dont shoot up the village when I drive through.

 

[Goldenstar]

The onus is on us to train our horses and seek ourselves to ride better every time we ride .
Our horses met a machine digging tunnel along the road and dragging a cable through last week this a seriously strange scary and noisy thing they startled but walked past although they both grew a hand and there was a lot of snorting .
You could not expect the men to stop the machine so I had two choices turn back or ride past .

 

[gunnergundog]

In my experience increasingly nowadays people seek to instill confidence (or so they believe) by patting the horse and allowing it to stand and gawp at whatever it has balked at rather than taking a pro-active stance and giving it a wallop or whatever is necessary to get it past the offending object. Horses take their confidence (or lack of) from the jockey on top. Give them a moment to consider and you have lost the battle before it has even started.

This will no doubt be unpopular but has worked for me for umpteen years and continues to do so.

 

[ycbm]

You could not expect the men to stop the machine

Why not?

 

[Redders]

In my experience increasingly nowadays people seek to instill confidence (or so they believe) by patting the horse and allowing it to stand and gawp at whatever it has balked at rather than taking a pro-active stance and giving it a wallop or whatever is necessary to get it past the offending object. Horses take their confidence (or lack of) from the jockey on top. Give them a moment to consider and you have lost the battle before it has even started.

This will no doubt be unpopular but has worked for me for umpteen years and continues to do so.

I let my youngster look at the object, encourage her to step towards it, and work out for herself it won't do her any harm. This doesn't mean I I am not giving confidence, I am calm and quiet while she looks, she snorts at it, realises its not a threat and we move on. No fuss, no tantrums, no wallops. And this approach has meant that she is getting more and more confident with 'scary horse eating monsters' every day. Works for me!

 

[Alec Swan]

In my experience increasingly nowadays people seek to instill confidence (or so they believe) by patting the horse and allowing it to stand and gawp at whatever it has balked at rather than taking a pro-active stance and giving it a wallop or whatever is necessary to get it past the offending object. Horses take their confidence (or lack of) from the jockey on top. Give them a moment to consider and you have lost the battle before it has even started.

This will no doubt be unpopular but has worked for me for umpteen years and continues to do so.

The problem in reality is that as we own horses, and so we ride, when we get on the back of a horse, we don't only lose our sense of reason, but we also acquire a sense of near omnipotence. We don't just own the road, it seems, we also own the land that's around it and we expect others to give way to us and to consider our assumed status.

I do own horses and I used to ride. Far too many appear to have a rather grand understanding of their own importance and rights, is I suspect the reality. No, we don't own the road or the land around it, No we don't have any more right on the public highway or the land that surrounds it, than others, and when we start to understand that we piss off those who do have both Rights of Way and of Usage and when perhaps we show a little more humility, so others may not be quiet so irritated with us.

Alec.

 

[Goldenstar]

Why not?

Because it was a computer operated machine costing thousands and thousands of £ an hour to run .
Much better be in control of your horse and get on with it , the men on site warned it made noises with no warning ( it certainly did ) .
The world can't not be expected to stop because we decided to hack along the road .
I genuinely believe we risk being kicked out of public places if we persist with this the world must stop for horses attiude .

 

[ycbm]

Because it was a computer operated machine costing thousands and thousands of £ an hour to run .
Much better be in control of your horse and get on with it , the men on site warned it made noises with no warning ( it certainly did ) .
The world can't not be expected to stop because we decided to hack along the road .
I genuinely believe we risk being kicked out of public places if we persist with this the world must stop for horses attiude .

What kind of road were you on goldenstar? On a major road, I would not expect them to stop. On a single track country road, I would expect them to look and see if I was having any difficulty, and stop if I was. If that wasn't possible, I would have expected to have been warned about road closure in advance. It's all very well to say turn back, but what if home is ten minutes if you go on, and another two hours when you've already done two hours, if you go back? Surely we can't expect every single horse and rider on any quiet country road to be capable of riding their horse past that kind of machine?

 

[pennyturner]

The world does not turn around the horse-rider. What do you do if your horse is scared by something at the side of the road which cannot be moved? Either ride past it, or get off and lead past it. My horse once refused to pass a Gypsy encampment - the vardos were a bit intimidating...should I expect them to up-sticks?

Yes, you should expect any rider to be able to ride their horse past a machine. We live in a world full of machines. Do your horse a favour and train it to cope with the world it lives in.

 

[ycbm]

The world does not turn around the horse-rider. What do you do if your horse is scared by something at the side of the road which cannot be moved? Either ride past it, or get off and lead past it. My horse once refused to pass a Gypsy encampment - the vardos were a bit intimidating...should I expect them to up-sticks?

Yes, you should expect any rider to be able to ride their horse past a machine. We live in a world full of machines. Do your horse a favour and train it to cope with the world it lives in.

Of course the world does not revolve around horses and riders. But we aren't all perfect. And for the record, I am extremely confident at hacking out on roads and have retrained many bad horses. But not everybody is as skilled as the more expert people posting on this thread, and are we really suggesting that those people should be banned from a country road rather than other people turning off a machine for two minutes?

A person who is in the middle of a road has no right to be there. But a car must always stop of it can. It is NEVER going to be the case that every single horse and rider on the road can be guaranteed not to bat an eyelid at a noisy machine or a man flapping a bag on the end of a pole. I would go so far as to I say that however expert anyone thinks they are, and however well trained their horse, there is ALWAYS a chance that horse will suddenly throw a paddy one day. (A friend of mine was recently bucked off her ultra quiet mare in public - and only when it fitted in a field a week later did anyone realise it had a brain tumour).

So yes, I would like all users of public spaces to watch out for other users of public spaces. Why is that unreasonable?

 

[Clodagh]

If you cannot hack your horse out past scary things, you should stick to the school. Life is scary, yes controlling a revved up beast isn't always fun but if you can't do it then don't try it out in public! Why should cyclists get off their bikes so a horse can go by? Why should ladies out walking with prams and possibly umbrellas get soaked waiting for us to persuade our horse to go past.
I'm with GGD - a good trot solves a multitude of sins, don't give them time to get flight organised.

 

[chillipup]

Just wondering, would the guns have started firing if someone was moving a herd of cattle or perhaps sheep down the same single track road, or even if the hunt came past?

 

[Clodagh]

Definately if the hunt came past! Years ago I was out hunting and hounds ran into a covert that was being shot and they fired over our heads. Very scary but it did motivate everyone to move on.
I expect the cow and sheep man would have been out beating and earning a bit of money.

 

[Goldenstar]

I just find it unbelievable that anyone might think that a complicated machine laying utilities ( a water mains I think )operating remotely in that it had no driver ,and believe me it was out there in terms of what it was up to ,could or should be stopped because two horses wanted to hack by .
There was loads of warning of the road works and traffic lights all manner of barriers and flashing lights , should all those be removed so a horse could pass , and yes you should have to turn back if you did not want to pass the whole world cannot operate around horses .

 

[Goldenstar]

Definately if the hunt came past! Years ago I was out hunting and hounds ran into a covert that was being shot and they fired over our heads. Very scary but it did motivate everyone to move on.
I expect the cow and sheep man would have been out beating and earning a bit of money.

Opps ,I bet the master of the hunt spent the next fortnight apologising .

 

[chillipup]

That's a poor excuse! We're all busy. You've been missed on parade.

NOA you once said! Spot on!

Alec.

Apologies for my ignorance, couldn't find anything by googling (apart from it's an Israeli girl's name) but please tell me what NOA stands for.

 

[chillipup]

Definately if the hunt came past! Years ago I was out hunting and hounds ran into a covert that was being shot and they fired over our heads. Very scary but it did motivate everyone to move on.
I expect the cow and sheep man would have been out beating and earning a bit of money.

LOL

 

[tashcat]

So many interesting, at sometimes controversial, points being made I keep wanting to reply to them all!

I take on board the theory of the beaters thinking we were sarcastic, but I was very friendly and I think I sounded more confused than anything. Point taken on board though.

Shooting had not commenced before we arrived. We headed in that direction for a good 20 minutes, and the nature of the roads meant we would have heard shooting if it had been happening on our approach. So I believe, but cannot guarantee it to be the start of the shoot. We were in line with the person waving the flag, so had no reason to suggest they thought we were past them.

As with the don't ride on the roads if you can't handle it comment - how will any of us EVER have been able to ride on the road without practise?! I could be an amazing rider in the school but without practise I might have no idea how to handle a horse on the road, especially not in a shooting circumstance like this. We need experience to improve and learn from our mistakes. This suggestion would prevent the next generation from ever stepping foot on a road with their horse. A nice idea, but in fact a bit illogical - especially as every rider makes mistakes, even those who believe they are brilliant. Perhaps an awful rider needs more experience with riding before hacking, but otherwise I don't understand.

Furthermore horses can be unpredictable, and yes as riders on the road we do sometimes demand much more than we should - but thats because its a risky business. We need extra attention to ensure the safety of us and those around us. The only other option is banning the use of horses on roads: something that is entwined into our culture.

We let absolutely shocking drivers on the road all the time, they cause so much danger to others. Yes you could argue horses are no different. But ban my horse, and I ban cars! I think there is something to be said about horse riders attitude towards other road users, but other road users are also responsible for putting others in danger no more than we are.

Teaching a horse to ride past flashing and noisy machinery, learn to not be frightened by flapping flags and to be calm at the sudden sound of gunshot is a great idea. Possible? Not always. My horse is 24 and has always been afraid of his own shadow. I am very proud of the way he behaved in fact - he calmed down once we were away from the drama, and led my friend home when she struggled with her horse still being silly and needed to swap. I cannot blame him for his reaction: the flag was sudden and he could not see it completely clearly. With hearing the gunshot, he had no idea what was making the noise and if he was in danger. I'm pretty sure if I heard gunshot whilst out shopping or something I would jump a few feet! We can teach horses to be well behaved, but not brave.

Thank you to all those with similar stories, and the well wishers. Bear has had plenty of carrots and gave me a lovely hack out yesterday. No damage done, but would dread to think what could have happened or what might happen next time. Certainly I have learnt from this experience, and will be finding as much information about the next shoots as possible.

 

[kez81]

As someone who both rides and shoots for the pot, I can say it is utter tosh that a beater cannot stop the shoot. ANY member of the shoot can raise an alarm to halt the guns. If OP asked what was going on then that person should have said that it was a shoot not just laughed it off. Its poor form on behalf of that person but I would hope, not intentional. He may have just assumed you were joking and your horses were used to guns. Personally I would put in a phone call to the shoot organiser and just explain that there seems to have been a case of crossed wires (no blame) and can members just be made aware that not everyone who rides is aware of what the flags mean and that a simple warning to all riders would be appreciated. Asking for shooting dates and locations would also be a good idea.