Beaters and shooters practically trying to kill us?!

[popsdosh]

What kind of road were you on goldenstar? On a major road, I would not expect them to stop. On a single track country road, I would expect them to look and see if I was having any difficulty, and stop if I was. If that wasn't possible, I would have expected to have been warned about road closure in advance. It's all very well to say turn back, but what if home is ten minutes if you go on, and another two hours when you've already done two hours, if you go back? Surely we can't expect every single horse and rider on any quiet country road to be capable of riding their horse past that kind of machine?

Im trying not to be confrontational now . How will the horse ever get used to it if the default answer to them napping is turn off the machine.
I promise you that getting horses used to lorries or tractors for example on the road is achieved a lot easier if rather than stopping the machine its keeps coming at you at a controlled speed. It gives the horse less chance to prat about and does not get it used to the machine gets turned off if I play up.

 

[Alec Swan]

Apologies for my ignorance, couldn't find anything by googling (apart from it's an Israeli girl's name) but please tell me what NOA stands for.

I took it to mean a Nation Of Arse-holes. Out of context I accept, and Pedantic is something of an acquired taste, but now and then, he's spot on!

Alec.

 

[Aleka81]

Coming back to the original subject at hand, there were wrongs on both sides here in my opinion and by the flags I assume they may have been partridge shooting rather than pheasants

Interesting theory but I'm not sure where it's from. No reason it's not a full mixed day with flags or just pure pheasant...

 

[popsdosh]

I am pleased TC that things dont seem quite so scarey today . Please go and find whoever runs the shoot and talk to them mutual understanding is all it takes . I see both sides all the time and I know it must have been scarey at the time for you but I promise you nobody will have done anything deliberately and I am sure they will be shocked at what happened and may still not be aware there was a problem.
We all have to rub along in the countryside and both sides have a right to be able to enjoy it.

 

[popsdosh]

Interesting theory but I'm not sure where it's from. No reason it's not a full mixed day with flags or just pure pheasant...

Exactly can be used in any driven shooting situation

 

[Alec Swan]

^^^^ An excellent and timely post popsdosh.

Alec.
ets. post 124. a.

 

[ycbm]

I just find it unbelievable that anyone might think that a complicated machine laying utilities ( a water mains I think )operating remotely in that it had no driver ,and believe me it was out there in terms of what it was up to ,could or should be stopped because two horses wanted to hack by .
There was loads of warning of the road works and traffic lights all manner of barriers and flashing lights , should all those be removed so a horse could pass , and yes you should have to turn back if you did not want to pass the whole world cannot operate around horses .

Nobody does think that, do they?

If this comment was in reply to me, I made it quite clear in my question that if there was warning of road works, that there would be no reason to stop the machine, and especially so if it was not on a single track road in the country.

 

[Templebar]

Interesting theory but I'm not sure where it's from. No reason it's not a full mixed day with flags or just pure pheasant...

I was only saying that and forgot to finish to say that partridge shoots can be quite unpredictable due to the nature of the birds all going up together and its quite a flurry. The only time i have seen flags is in partridge shoots, whereas any pheasant shoots that i have know mostly used beaters with brash sticks and beating dogs.

From experience pheasant shoots can be much slower paced, predictable and easier to stop in the moment, over partridge shoots which can be quite fast paced and unpredictable, it may have been part of a mixed day but this particular drive may have been partridge making the diverting of the shooting much more difficult had the beaters within sight not had radios on and presumably if the rider could not see the guns then neither could the beaters in order to signal not to shoot.

 

[Clodagh]

So many interesting, at sometimes controversial, points being made I keep wanting to reply to them all!

I take on board the theory of the beaters thinking we were sarcastic, but I was very friendly and I think I sounded more confused than anything. Point taken on board though.

Shooting had not commenced before we arrived. We headed in that direction for a good 20 minutes, and the nature of the roads meant we would have heard shooting if it had been happening on our approach. So I believe, but cannot guarantee it to be the start of the shoot. We were in line with the person waving the flag, so had no reason to suggest they thought we were past them.

As with the don't ride on the roads if you can't handle it comment - how will any of us EVER have been able to ride on the road without practise?! I could be an amazing rider in the school but without practise I might have no idea how to handle a horse on the road, especially not in a shooting circumstance like this. We need experience to improve and learn from our mistakes. This suggestion would prevent the next generation from ever stepping foot on a road with their horse. A nice idea, but in fact a bit illogical - especially as every rider makes mistakes, even those who believe they are brilliant. Perhaps an awful rider needs more experience with riding before hacking, but otherwise I don't understand.

Furthermore horses can be unpredictable, and yes as riders on the road we do sometimes demand much more than we should - but thats because its a risky business. We need extra attention to ensure the safety of us and those around us. The only other option is banning the use of horses on roads: something that is entwined into our culture.

We let absolutely shocking drivers on the road all the time, they cause so much danger to others. Yes you could argue horses are no different. But ban my horse, and I ban cars! I think there is something to be said about horse riders attitude towards other road users, but other road users are also responsible for putting others in danger no more than we are.

Teaching a horse to ride past flashing and noisy machinery, learn to not be frightened by flapping flags and to be calm at the sudden sound of gunshot is a great idea. Possible? Not always. My horse is 24 and has always been afraid of his own shadow. I am very proud of the way he behaved in fact - he calmed down once we were away from the drama, and led my friend home when she struggled with her horse still being silly and needed to swap. I cannot blame him for his reaction: the flag was sudden and he could not see it completely clearly. With hearing the gunshot, he had no idea what was making the noise and if he was in danger. I'm pretty sure if I heard gunshot whilst out shopping or something I would jump a few feet! We can teach horses to be well behaved, but not brave.

Thank you to all those with similar stories, and the well wishers. Bear has had plenty of carrots and gave me a lovely hack out yesterday. No damage done, but would dread to think what could have happened or what might happen next time. Certainly I have learnt from this experience, and will be finding as much information about the next shoots as possible.

Good reply, Tashcat, onwards and upwards.

 

[fatpiggy]

In my experience increasingly nowadays people seek to instill confidence (or so they believe) by patting the horse and allowing it to stand and gawp at whatever it has balked at rather than taking a pro-active stance and giving it a wallop or whatever is necessary to get it past the offending object. Horses take their confidence (or lack of) from the jockey on top. Give them a moment to consider and you have lost the battle before it has even started.
This will no doubt be unpopular but has worked for me for umpteen years and continues to do so.

I would agree with you - up to a point though. Let's take an outwardly similar (but many people would say was a TOTALLY different situation) - your horse refuses to go up the ramp into the box/trailer. Would you say in that case that you should get your whip out and wallop the horse until it runs up the ramp? Every horse is different and some just need a moment to see the entire picture for themselves. Others need a bit more active encouragement. Clearly if your horse is running backwards into a barbed wire fence you need to take swift action. But a horse that has balked at the sight of whatever isn't necessarily being disobedient. People always say how well-trained police horses are and how all horses should be the same , blah blah, but I can tell you that there are police horses out there who are really not good in traffic. I've met one that was not happy about vehicles coming up behind him. But he was good in crowds so they kept him on. He also liked biting people which might be useful in the middle of 500 drunk football fans screeching abuse.

In my experience intelligent horses ask questions and think for themselves, dim ones do as they are told. That may explain why most police horses and many competitive jumpers etc are geldings.

 

[Goldenstar]

I would agree with you - up to a point though. Let's take an outwardly similar (but many people would say was a TOTALLY different situation) - your horse refuses to go up the ramp into the box/trailer. Would you say in that case that you should get your whip out and wallop the horse until it runs up the ramp? Every horse is different and some just need a moment to see the entire picture for themselves. Others need a bit more active encouragement. Clearly if your horse is running backwards into a barbed wire fence you need to take swift action. But a horse that has balked at the sight of whatever isn't necessarily being disobedient. People always say how well-trained police horses are and how all horses should be the same , blah blah, but I can tell you that there are police horses out there who are really not good in traffic. I've met one that was not happy about vehicles coming up behind him. But he was good in crowds so they kept him on. He also liked biting people which might be useful in the middle of 500 drunk football fans screeching abuse.

In my experience intelligent horses ask questions and think for themselves, dim ones do as they are told. That may explain why most police horses and many competitive jumpers etc are geldings.

If you are saying that horses who are confident and trust their riders are not clever I cannot express how much I disagree with you .
Gelding are often police and Competion horses because they are more level in their hormone levels than mares and stallions , that has nothing to do with intelligence gelding are also often braver than stallions because they don't have to worry about banging their dangly bits which is why far more stallions make it as SJers than eventers .
Hacking past hazards is much much more a test of a riders leadership and skill than a horses intelligence .
If a horse won't go past something it's it's leader I would look to not the horses IQ.

 

[LCH611]

I wasn't going to reply to this thread, but I keep coming back to it...... the title IMO is unnecessarily hysterical. In a way the fact that the people creating a noise (that added to a situation that your horse was already spooking at) were using guns is completely irrelevant. As far as I can tell they were using them legitimately, on private land as part of an organised shoot, so they can hardly be said to be practically trying to kill you. I can quite see that someone waving a plastic bag on a stick, might cause your horse to be startled, and that the situation would then be compounded by the sound of gunshot. All of that I have sympathy with, but is it really so very different from any unexpected hazard appearing behind a hedge (a child on a trampoline, a gust of wind causing something to flap, somebody suddenly appearing with a balloon) and then a sudden noise (someone starting up a strimmer/chainsaw/pressure washer/revving an engine etc etc)? In an ideal world the general public would be far more aware of the potential for horses to spook out on a road and be a danger to all concerned, but we all know that is not the case.

Others have given you sensible advice about making certain that you are better informed about when they will be shooting so that you can stay out of the way. Of course it would have been better if they had been able to delay until you had safely gone by, but if the drive had already started I can quite see why they needed to continue. Whether that particular shoot was run as a business or was merely a low-key day out for the guns, they are not going to want to forgo that drive just because two people are on horses that are getting a little upset. Once the beaters have got the birds in the air the guns are lined up on their pegs to take a shot. Once they have gone past them the opportunity has gone.

My horses live on the edge of a sporting estate, next to one of the main drives, and out of all the horses that I have had coming and going over the years, I have never had any that have been especially overwrought about the shooting activities. If anything they love a shoot day and are absolutely enthralled by the beating line and the pickers-up. Even when there are simulated clay days and it sounds like the Battle of the Somme echoing round the valley, they just graze peacefully. They are also pretty firework proof!

It sounds as though there was no lasting damage done and next time you see the beaters etc you will know what to expect. If you don't blow it out of all proportion in your mind you may be pleasantly surprised by how well your horse copes with it!

 

[JFTDWS]

Generally speaking if you think your horse will be terrified, it will be.

You might think differently if you took Fergus out when they're shooting round here... After a particularly nasty encounter as a youngster (massive shoot, shooting across a road, pheasants raining onto the road around him, marshall had radio contact but refused to delay for me to get him away) and a couple of dodgy encounters since (shooting rabbits along a byway...) he has a tendency to react negatively to guns out hacking. In his own field, he still jumps out of his skin if they're shooting. It's a bloody nuisance as there are birdscarers and shoots everywhere down here but what can you do? Provided they don't shoot across (or along :mad3: ) the roads, I'm grateful for that...

 

[Hanno Verian]

I had similar problems with a local shoot all winter last year ! A shoot negotiated shooting rights on the land of a farm next to my yard. I was effectively surrounded, with "drives" taking place north, south, east, & west of me all day long on shoot days. Over last Christmas, shooting took place every single day except Christmas Day!! It was like living in a War Zone !!!
The law is extremely generous to the shooters - they can even shoot within 15 feet of the centre of a road !!! Whilst they have guidelines issued by BASC which include issues like not endangering other countryside users, having marshals on public rights of way when conducting a shoot - as you have found out they are ineffective . In my case they point blank refused to put marshals on a well used bridle way when they were shooting right next to it. Their excuse - whilst there are BASC guidelines - they are not the law !!! I tried every option available - the BASC representative , the police , the local councillor, the environmental health officer ( who never actually turned up to any meetings) the county council responsible for rights of way - all either unco-operative or ineffective.
The long established mannerly shooting community abhor the behaviour of the new breed of shooters that are more interested in their "right" to do what they want regardless of the safety of others and the organisers are just interested in making money and at around £300 per gun per day it can be substantial.
I generally made such a nuisance of myself - got the issue in the local paper -pestered the police, (made sure I got a log number every time I reported it), got really good support from the local councillor even though he could only help by pestering too. Eventually got my neighbour to stop them using the field near the bridle path and next to my yard. They still shoot but not quite as close now !!

The law is out of date, it relied on participants being "gentlemen" - something the new breed of shooters don't understand !! Perhaps Horse & Hound could raise this issue publicly to get some support & campaign for more stringent laws rather than loose guidelines that are unenforceable, before someone is seriously hurt !!

Not entirely true about the law being out of date, under Civil Law, we all have a duty of care to protect our neighbours from harm, if you google "Civil Law - Duty of Care" you should pull out the relevent information. In summary we all have a duty of care to ensure that our actions do not lead to harm to other people in our proximity if it was reasonably forseeable that our actions could lead to harm (harm being injury to us or damage to our property - horses are considered to be property).

Equally we must play our part by behaving responsibly and taking reasonable precautions - wearing Hi Viz, avoiding areas where there is likely to be a shoot, asking if they are shooting and could they hold off for a moment to let you get clear of the area.

Unfortunately the human element fails, we dont exercise common sense, the shoots dont understand the consequences for horses and we end up with bad situations.

For the record I keep my horses on a shooting estate, and ride in areas where they and other shoots often shoot, I've had a few mildly worrying moments but have not had any misshap.